New Healer Request Next Expansion

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Originally Posted by Kaiserdrache

Then remove from Scholar all skills, that belong to it but basically to a Greenmage, spells like Bio, Miasma, Fester , Energy Drain, and from then on

- Add new skill replacements for the gaps,

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... so replace all of SCH's filler skills (which of the list you described only actually includes Bio and Energy Drain) with abilities that have the same effects, but new names and visuals.
Okay. Given they already changed SCH's Bio to "Biolysis", all it needs is a rename to Energy Drain (or for SMN to have Energy Drain renamed), which already doesn't function the same way SMN's does.

What I find quite interesting is that you specify "all skills that belong [...] basically to a Green Mage" -- particularly since none of the skills you named have ever been in a Green Mage repertoire.
Maybe I'm splitting hairs a bit since different editions of FF12 consider Poison or Drain "Green Magick", but Green Mage isn't officially a class there and those skills get shuffled into Black Magic between editions. In any game where Green Mage exists as a full job (which is... one game), Green Magic is exclusively either damage-mitigating buffs or crowd control effects (which all existing healers have), without even the means to deal or heal damage.

You have to remember that in classical FF games, SCH was sort of a Red Mage with support abilities like Scan in place of any Physical skills -- able to use both White and Black Magic. In that regard, Scholar has a better claim to Bio or (Energy) Drain than Green Mage, having had access to such spells for longer, more consistently, and in more games overall.

But let's discuss that. I'm curious why you want to remove everything from SCH that resembles a Green Mage, then specify giving Scholar "its own mechanics" when the only mechanics it still "shares" with SMN are pets and Aetherflow, both of which it uses in a completely different manner. Particularly interesting is that you put the onus on SCH to change purely because some elements of it still resemble SMN, when SMN has already been moving in a new direction!

To be clear I'm not saying SCH lacks problems, I just think you're misattributing them.

Besides, being "unique" in the manner you describe is only aesthetic, and wouldn't impact any of the balance impasses faced by healers.

A Greenmage is all about Alteration Magic, but that doesn't mean that they use that only for defense, support or other helpful things, to mitigate damage or to buff alliies, but also to specifically is it for offensive damage dealing debuffs, thats why Bio or Miasma belongs to the Greenmage as Magic Spell, because magically poisoning you enemies is offensive alteration of the physical status of that enemy by changing magically the blood of the victim to be not healthy for the victim anymore, if the target inhales the magical toxin from Bio.

The Greenmage uses Debuffs like Poison, Bleeding, Burning to deal that way mostly damage over time either, or burst damage, that comes from letting an enemy suffer on as many negative conditions as possible as the spells become more powerful, so much debuffs the target has, thats the offensive combat style of a Greenmage, to grind slowly an enemy to death and to overwhelm them with negative debuffs, until they haved powered themself and their allies up, to finish off targets then with massive debuff based burst skills, like Fester or Trisaster.

Yes, renaming those skills and slightly changing their effects to be not anymore the excat same effects that Summoner has, would be naturally the quickest solution.

Blackmages are about Black Magic, not Alteration Magic, that contains in first place destructive elements like fire und lightning spells, as also ice, that resembles to death, it has definetely some skills I'd rename to stop that confusion, which comes from its first spell that they learn to use those pink dot from that players, later get a second with this nonsensical named spell Xenoglossy, however I know what you meanby mentioning the Blackmage.
Theoretically those spells could be given to Blackmages, because of the Offline Games letting us assume it belongs there, but Offline b Online are two different pairs of shoes.

Blackmage here has with its elemental spells already everything it needs to fulfill its role as magical raw dps'er, they are not buffers/debuffers like Greenmages, which is why Bio, Miasma ect should be the offensive spells for the missing Greenmage.
A Scholar in comparison is no Greenmage, nor a magical Doctor, they dont use Alteration Magic and have no knowledge about that, but instead have just fairy power enhanced Healing and Protection Magic as their role as Healers.
Greenmages are no Healers, it would be a magical DPS class, that is weaker/slower/ less mobile than the Redmage and can't Heal/Revive, but therefore weakens enemies, has of all dps the most buffs n debuffs, including Field Spells to alterate even the environment around them,like for example the weather to influence this way elemental spells/mudras positively for black, white n redmages, or Ninjas to change/empower their effects

However, what I truly wanted to express with my post, was my opiniin, that Healer will be never really fixed completely, as long the Summoner is a burden for Scholars du to them being linked and sharing similar skills and mechanics. There needs to happen first finall a clear cut between those two, so that SE gains again complete design freedom with the Scholar

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Originally Posted by Kaiserdrache

A Greenmage is all about Alteration Magic, but that doesn't mean that they use that only for defense, support or other helpful things, to mitigate damage or to buff alliies, but also to specifically is it for offensive damage dealing debuffs, thats why Bio or Miasma belongs to the Greenmage as Magic Spell, because magically poisoning you enemies is offensive alteration of the physical status of that enemy by changing magically the blood of the victim to be not healthy for the victim anymore, if the target inhales the magical toxin from Bio.

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Okay, so completely glossing over the fact for a moment that you're attributing abilities to Green Mage which it has never presented in FF canon: by the broadness of that "Alteration Magic" definition, Green Mage should be the only job capable of magically inflicting buffs, debuffs and DoTs. No Bio or Miasma for SMN either, no barriers or damage-mitigating debuffs for any existing healers, no cards for AST or Embolden for RDM, no Chain Tactics for SCH (even though debuffing is the closest thing we have to giving them Scan/Libra), probably no Thunder DoT for BLM.

I'm not down for that.

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Yes, renaming those skills and slightly changing their effects to be not anymore the excat same effects that Summoner has, would be naturally the quickest solution

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I was being satirical. That's not a "solution", that's a change to SCH's aesthetic so you can clear room for Green Mage by cannibalizing it -- and then immediately follow by saying Green Mage wouldn't be a healer anyway.
The aesthetic isn't a core problem of SCH, and stripping even more pieces of it away isn't going to fix any healers.

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A Scholar in comparison is no Greenmage, nor a magical Doctor, they dont use Alteration Magic and have no knowledge about that, but instead have just fairy power enhanced Healing and Protection Magic as their role as Healers.

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... I'm curious, do you play Scholar?

Because Scholar's entire job questline revolves around being a plague doctor, and some of its dummied abilities include such skills as "Leeches" (its original copy of Esuna), based off of early real world medical practices.
Not to mention that classical Final Fantasy -- specifically its introduction in FF3 -- features it as the original source of the Item Lore ability we now associate with Chemists.

If anything Scholar is the only healing job we have that could remotely qualify as a "doctor", it just happens to have magical assistance and summon its own arcane "nurse" to facilitate that, and resorts to shielding because it's intended as a field medic.
If we were to argue about Scholar having thematic issues, it would be related to the devs' increased interest in pushing the fairy over the Scholar's actual tactical or medical knowledge -- not that it's, in your opinion, too much like a job that infamously only existed in one game and had to borrow spells from existing mages in order to create its own (very short) list, which includes spells that are or have been role actions for healers.

Your obsession with creating a distinction about what jobs are "not" has led to you overlooking what they actually are.

@Archwizard

Could you please stop jumping to conclusions about thing's I haven't even written? Thank you very much.

That is very much the reason, why I said, that Online FF's, are not Offline FF's. Only because something has been how it was in an Offline FF, like Bio being with Blackmages for example, doesn't have to mean, that it has to be so the exact same way in every FF Game, nor especially in Online Games, which functionize oftenly in many things differently, than Offline games, so this is comparing apples with oranges.

My definition of Alteration Magic is no dictating absolutism about Greenmages being the only class that should be able to use buffs and debuffs.
It was merely just my form of explaining, what makes a Greenmage essentially special, in which kind of magic type are they experts, differently compared to other caster classes that aren't so good at it.
You are clearly overreacting now by saying assumptions, like that I want them to be the only class to have DoTs lol

Would you have seen my concept thread for a Summoner Redesign, then you would know, that I agree to your correct analysis about what I've written, that this naturally would mean also too, that the SMN needs to get stripped off all these skills too, which belong in my opinion to Greenmages, because Bio, Miasma, Fester, Energy Drain/Siphon, Trisaster and Outburst are all skills that have absulutely nothing to do with the theme of being a summone and how a summonr should be played n feel like in the first place.
I won't continue commenting on the other examples as they are obviously only more exaggerations based on reacting to my Alteration Magic description

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God, that's why a hate satires, it's just so, that I can't take people any seriously, if they don't mean, what they write, just to write then in the next post, when being pointed out by something, where you basically agree with, that what they have written, was satirical and not meant so in reality, like being written by them .If you use satire in a forum, make clear, where it begins and where it ends, so that readers can clearly follow your thoughts.
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However, to answer your next question, yes I played Scholar, in fact to Level 80, having completed it's story to that point, but sorry, a real doctor looks and behaves differently to me. Only because they are working against the Tomberry Disease, trying to find a curing for it, doesn't make them doctors, its a thing that basically fits as story to just any healer job, as its a healer's task to heal and cure wounds n illnesses of those that are in need of help by them.
It's only so, that the story of the Scholar focuses on more the curing aspects of the healer role, while the story of the WHM n AST are more focused on the aspects of healing and protecting others.
Would we have Alchemists/Chemists as Healers, they would be in fact the real FF doctors, healing and curing wounds n illnesses with all kinds of herbs, potions, elixiers, tonics , oils, cremes, powders and the like and not relying on any magical spells or fairies doing all the work for them.

Maybe I'm obsessed by a certain vision on how jobs have to be, but you are definetely for my taste too much obsessed by how classes were in the offline games in the past, thinking that everything of that needs to be 100% copy pasted into FF14 n work here exactly the same way. But let me tell you a thing - it doesn't work this way. Thats also why Blackmages have no Bio, they have already their Lightning Spells to deal damage over time. They are concepted for FF14 to be the magical raw DPS, not lke in Offline FF's to cast enemies full also with negative conditions like poison, blindness, silence and sleep. ect

The fact is, in an MMORPG needs to have every playable class/job also offensive skills, so that it can be played in the game's pve content also solo , without needing to do everything in parties, because of your chosen class hitting like a wet noodle n battles taking ages lol
So also does a potential Greenmage, would it exist as playable class only , it needs to have offensive skills - and everything I'm saying and want is - should ever SE bring out actually Greenmages, then should SE use this job class together with reworking the Scholar/Summoner into separate classes and just give the Greenmage by that move those Bio, Miasma, Fester, Trisaster ect skills, that belong in my opinion to the offensive arsenal of Greenmage Skills, while Scholar n Summoner receive then replacements with renamed skill names and other animations/effects, to be not anymore exactly the same for all three then.

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Originally Posted by Kaiserdrache

That is very much the reason, why I said, that Online FF's, are not Offline FF's. Only because something has been how it was in an Offline FF, like Bio being with Blackmages for example, doesn't have to mean, that it has to be so the exact same way in every FF Game, nor especially in Online Games, which functionize oftenly in many things differently, than Offline games, so this is comparing apples with oranges.

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Kind of a moot distinction, since there's only two Online FFs (aside from mobile games, I suppose), and XI had no problem with sharing Bio between 4 different jobs.
Hell, even in XIV we infamously have RDM sharing a number of abilities from WHM and BLM -- didn't have to tear the same skills out of them to do it.

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God, that's why a hate satires, it's just so, that I can't take people any seriously, if they don't mean, what they write, just to write then in the next post, when being pointed out by something, where you basically agree with, that what they have written, was satirical and not meant so in reality, like being written by them .If you use satire in a forum, make clear, where it begins and where it ends, so that readers can clearly follow your thoughts.

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To be honest, that says more about your comprehension than others' arguing styles. While my argument was hyperbolic, it was intended to illustrate that the train of logic you presented had significantly larger implications and scope than you were arguing for; existing examples already proved that the point you were trying to make was inaccurate. As such the "stopping point" was arbitrarily decided by you, which means that your intended encapsulation solely of SMN and SCH speaks to a vendetta against the existing design for those two, which aligns perfectly with the statements you'd already made.

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Maybe I'm obsessed by a certain vision on how jobs have to be, but you are definetely for my taste too much obsessed by how classes were in the offline games in the past, thinking that everything of that needs to be 100% copy pasted into FF14 n work here exactly the same way. But let me tell you a thing - it doesn't work this way. Thats also why Blackmages have no Bio, they have already their Lightning Spells to deal damage over time. They are concepted for FF14 to be the magical raw DPS, not lke in Offline FF's to cast enemies full also with negative conditions like poison, blindness, silence and sleep. ect

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Quite the contrary -- I suggested Necromancer as a healer of all jobs, which in classical FF was a suped-up BLM/SMN combo with permanent Undead status -- and even that was added in remakes in FF5.
I have no problem with making an old job concept fit a completely new vision, or more accurately, just giving up the delusion that it's even remotely connected to an "old job concept"; Necromancy's got the flexibility of being a staple even beyond Final Fantasy, which is why it was strongly considered for XI.
I don't even have a problem with the devs reworking SCH to have a stronger thematic base, given that a lot of its skills kind of just "exist" with little explanation. The same kit that includes dark magical attacks like Broil also includes summoning and commanding faeries. It nebulously consumes a lot of lore potential but only vaguely delivers on most of it.

My objection is to the idea that existing jobs -- ones with equal if not greater rights to the same skills -- need to be cannibalized, in either skills or aesthetics, to make room for a niche job. It's the exact same problem I discussed with the Oracle, Time Mage, and healer!Geomancer concepts that have been floating about: if something already exists that can use those same skills the same way, you're adding nothing to the healer discussion.
Everything I wrote for Necromancer uses skills that no existing job currently has access to, and steps on no toes that are already on the mat. I support Geomancer as a DPS job because there are plenty of elemental skills White Mage never has touched upon and, at the going rate, never will.
By contrast, the argument you present is clearly intending to rework SCH and SMN not for their own sake, but to force an opening in order to push your own unrelated concept. If your concept requires that an existing job be completely reworked in order to fit it in, you're going to be fighting an uphill battle against the community that enjoys or prefers the existing job as-is -- not to mention that it's a two-step process and you will be very disappointed until both steps are executed exactly according to your vision (which if you're not working on the dev team, will be almost never).
The fact that it does all that and still claims to be an "old job concept" speaks to a lack of originality on your part.

The only cannon inclusion of a Green Mage I remember happened in Final fantasy Tactics A2 Grimmoire of the Rift.

The viera had Green Mage as a race exclusive job.

Skills: Protect, Shell, Tranq, Blind, Oil, Sleep, Leap and Silence.

They seem to be a Hammer/club wielding class.