Just realized something: FFXIV is a terrible DPS player's DREAM come true...

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

You made many good points in this thread, well said. Somebody in my FC is a busy mother who doesn't have much time to practice and has a lot of distractions, usually playing while a baby is on her lap. All kinds of people play this game, which a dps number doesn't convey. We should be patient and accepting. Like you said, if somebody wants an optimal run, just preform a group. We don't need to harass people who aren't high performers until the game is whittled down to just the hardcore players.

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That is actually a legitimate reason for perceived under-performing, actually.

But even so, said people should at least mention that in chat, before the tank goes off and mass pulls everything and ends up causing a wipe that slows things down even more than if they went for smaller pulls instead. I will tell people to outright kick me if I end up DC'ing for more than 2 minutes, especially if the others are in a rush. Re-queuing isn't the end of the world for me.

And as much as I ranted on other people's performance relative to my own, people on my side of the spectrum also have to note other factors as well, such as gear and the amount of experience the player has with the job. It's utterly disrespectful to blow up on players that had entered the dungeon for the first time ever, for instance.

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Originally Posted by OwlBlackX

WoW had DPS meters. But, if ffxiv get it... (I played in WoW ago)

Would come bad happen with meters.
Since if players noticed who low damage or bad heal. They go rude/abuse for players or kick them out.
This what I can see

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I can tell you what i see and that is: If people want to kick you they'll kick you anyway and thats whats happening in every game with or without parser, WoW is no exception.

If it would just happen because of a parser not much more would happen because there are already a lot of players who use one. Throwing around with things like "people will kick more people if they have a parser" is just a unnecessary scare tactic of people nothing more and nothing less.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

For the love of all that's Holy...

What I wouldn't give to be able to block threads from Elysium-wannabes running their mouths about other people's perceived shortcomings.

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They were like world 7th this go-around lol; come on, you can do better than that. Angered? Stellarium? You just look silly if you're not up-to-date on which tryhard elitist scumbag FC the casuals are supposed to hate now.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

You made many good points in this thread, well said. Somebody in my FC is a busy mother who doesn't have much time to practice and has a lot of distractions, usually playing while a baby is on her lap. All kinds of people play this game, which a dps number doesn't convey. We should be patient and accepting. Like you said, if somebody wants an optimal run, just preform a group. We don't need to harass people who aren't high performers until the game is whittled down to just the hardcore players.

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This...
(12345789)

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

Some of the classes in this game damn near holds your hand through your rotation. Not having a parser is not the problem, peoples attitudes are.

A parser does not:
tell you your optimal rotation
inform you of ideal stats for your class
rotation per boss/mechanic

It takes a person willing to learn. And if a players isn't willing to learn their proper rotations or in the least what the game is showing them, then a parser is a pointless tool.

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All this is very true, but consider: how do the lead players determine what's optimal in the first place? Theorycrafting gets you far, but it's also open to misinterpretation that repeated samples of quantitative testing (parsing) is not.

Personally, I feel like fflogs is about the minimum information required in order for ambitious and self-improving players to reach improvement in few strides. I would actually like to have more information, even, than that. I suggested a Dojo system to this effect in one of my own threads. But that doesn't mean that a parser wouldn't already a huge step in the right direction. All the better if it's expandable to recreate a timeline and track dps or (my favored) relative potency over time via the battlelogs. Even a DMC-style gauge that simply pits your performance against the potential at your gear over x GCDs of combat (and therefore CD coverage) in a given scenario would be tremendous.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

You made many good points in this thread, well said. Somebody in my FC is a busy mother who doesn't have much time to practice and has a lot of distractions, usually playing while a baby is on her lap. All kinds of people play this game, which a dps number doesn't convey. We should be patient and accepting. Like you said, if somebody wants an optimal run, just preform a group. We don't need to harass people who aren't high performers until the game is whittled down to just the hardcore players.

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Self-improvement shouldn't be treated as "community-whittling" though. It very well can be the most rewarding part of the game's experience, and it ought to be treated as such, rather than as a chore or obligation alone.

But to foster that perception, there needs to be more access to information useful for self-improvement, more challenges that hint—in means to their completion—at ways to improve, and so forth. The game needs information, the game needs encouragement, and the game really needs a better difficulty curve. Trying to gag order objective information only increases toxicity. Widening its breadth, depth, and integration only makes the game more accessible.

...I feel like your promoting a disservice to the same cause your championing. They need to be welcomed into the game in its every form, including the math underneath it, not to be segregated from all but its aesthetic surface (all the while causing friction with everyone else).

The issue here is that the people that want to get better are already doing so. The people that don't, aren't. Adding meters isn't going to make them be better. They are already being called out and kicked for low DPS, you just can't tell them how you kow in public. But if they are bad and refuse to get better, all you have to do is get rid of them. There's absolutely no rule that says "You must tell that person why they were kicked before they are kicked."

Let's say, tomorrow, SE is just like "Meters are all good by us, just don't harrass, k?" Nothing would change. Those bad DPS aren't going to try harder. The people that use meters are already using them and are already calling them out and getting rid of them. All that changes is that you can show them they are bad. But is that really going to do any good? If they weren't trying before, they aren't going to try now. No more or less people will be using meters aside from PS4 players.

Literally nothing changes aside from the fact that you can now visibly lord their number over them in game. It won't change anything and honestly, it's fine the way it is now.

In the end, it's simple:

• Those that aren't good and want to get better will find ways to get better, pubic meters or not.
• Those that are bad and refuse to listen will continue to be ignorant, meters or not.
• Those that see the bad with their meters will just kicked the bad ones that refuse to get better, in-game meters or not.
• Those trying to help others will do so, in-game meters or not.
• The only difference between in game meters is the ability to visibly show someone they don't stack up in-game, it won't change that players attitude compared to the way it is now.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

All this is very true, but consider: how do the lead players determine what's optimal in the first place? Theorycrafting gets you far, but it's also open to misinterpretation that repeated samples of quantitative testing (parsing) is not.

Personally, I feel like fflogs is about the minimum information required in order for ambitious and self-improving players to reach improvement in few strides. I would actually like to have more information, even, than that. I suggested a Dojo system to this effect in one of my own threads. But that doesn't mean that a parser wouldn't already a huge step in the right direction. All the better if it's expandable to recreate a timeline and track dps or (my favored) relative potency over time via the battlelogs. Even a DMC-style gauge that simply pits your performance against the potential at your gear over x GCDs of combat (and therefore CD coverage) in a given scenario would be tremendous.

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Sorry, perhaps I worded that wrong. I'm not saying parsers in and of them selves are useless, but useless in the hands of those that don't/won't learn.

My argument is aimed more at people that think that adding a parser is going to magically turn people into knowledgeable and "good" DPS. It will help those wanting to improve, but do nothing for those that have no desire or will to.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Parsers will do NOTHING to change the amount of pressure tanks and healers get.

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No, but it will put them on a more even footing with the amount DPS get, thus encouraging more DPS players to roll a tank or healer because DPS is no longer a pressure-free role.

And I don't want to say "parsers are the answer" because there are other creative answers that could also solve the problem.

Instead of a raw parser, there could be percentages done, which would at least encourage DPS players to be doing more damage than the healer and tank.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Elusive jump and lucid dreaming exist. No matter how badly anyone wants to convince themselves, threat meters are not an accurate method of gauging DPS in the slightest. Not a "general indication," not perfectly, not "somewhat," just period, it won't. If someone is single targeting during an AoE phase, and another is AoEing, the single targeter is going to have more hate on that one particular mob. It is extremely illogical to ever assert or associate DPS with your hate generation at any point.

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100% correct: threat meters don't tell us anything, and again, I've never had anyone use a threat meter to call out my terrible DPS while I was learning a DPS class in a dungeon.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

Checkers must be an exclusive club by this backwards logic.

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SHHH! The first rule of Checkers Club is that you do not talk about Checkers Club!!

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

We don't need to harass people who aren't high performers until the game is whittled down to just the hardcore players.

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See, this is the part that's incredibly backwards...

We have people playing healers and tanks who aren't "high performers", either, and they get hassled. Healers already get hassled for not DPSing during downtime.

This, in turn, drives up DPS queue times immensely, resulting in DPS players getting pissy on these forums about how long it takes to find a healer and tank.

What I don't understand is WHY it's okay that healers and tanks can have their performance easily evaluated, but the game goes out of its way to shield DPS players from taking any blame for extremely slow dungeon runs.

Again, why is it okay for healers and tanks to be harassed, but NOT DPS?

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Like you said, if somebody wants an optimal run, just preform a group.

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That logic can easily be flipped around: someone who knows they'll be playing poorly can queue with a group of friends that doesn't mind playing with 1.5 DPS, instead of that player queuing into a party with three strangers who may need to get the dungeon run over with quickly because they wanted to get a run in before work or something.

Again, where is this sense of entitlement coming from??

If a tank goes into a dungeon knowing they won't be able to tank properly, they deserve to get kicked.

If a healer goes into a dungeon knowing they won't be able to heal properly, they deserve to get kicked.

If a DPS goes into a dungeon knowing they won't be able to DPS properly, then it's okay because we should be supportive because all kinds of people play this game...?

....Huh...?

If you think it's okay to slow down a dungeon run for three strangers who may have wanted to get that dungeon run over with quickly, how can you POSSIBLY think it's NOT okay for those same three strangers to be unhappy with you?

I won't even DPS in a dungeon when I'm on the phone. If you have a kid in your lap, there are plenty of other things to do in this game like crafting, gathering, etc. that aren't going to drag 3 strangers down with you while you do it with one hand.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

Let's say, tomorrow, SE is just like "Meters are all good by us, just don't harrass, k?" Nothing would change.

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I disagree, if SE put in some kind of damage meter, or at least at the end of dungeon posted total damage for each player. people would see that they are only doing half as much damage as the other person and might do something to fix it.

And even if they didn't want to raise their dps, people would know not to play with that person for content that needs good dps.