[spoilers]3.2 MSQ Discussion/Reaction thread

I wasn't assuming it was a constant drain, I see it as something of a pool to be drawn upon (probably mostly inadvertently) when necessary. And we definitely used it at the end of 3.0.

But still, our Blessing was strengthened to much greater heights at the end of 3.0, by word of Best Ascian. I think we have Minfilia's sacrifice to thank for that. So yes, I would say we were using her lifeforce to strengthen ourselves, because by the time you reach Antitower, she doesn't have any strength remaining again.

I may need to go back and check 3.0 cutscenes, but I could have sworn the Blessing was referred to similarly as the Echo. As in, we'd learned how to use it to better effect after regaining it, rather than it growing stronger as more aether was pumped into it (by Hydaelyn or Minfilia).

Come to think of it, wouldn't be be minus a Blessing right now if it worked any other way? Hydaelyn is completely spent, we've got nothing left to draw upon if that is how it works... Given Matoya's Crystal Eye is a Crystal of Light, and still has aether, I'm incline to view the Blessing as more of an aether battery in the form of a full host of Crystals of Light. Could make for an interesting transition into 4.0... We surrender our Blessing to empower Hydaelyn again in 3.55, giving us 4.0 without such a silly concept (works if we carry on to 4.0 from 2.55 as well, since we were minus a Blessing at that point, too).

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I mean sure, sacrificing Minfilia isn't nice, but it seems more like an act of desperation to me... How the Scions react is questionable, but I can hardly fault Hydaelyn for that, and I can hardly complain at Hydaelyn sacrificing one person, when Ascians have a body count beyond counting...

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Our body count is not small, either, sorry. Not calamitous, sure, but we haven't been at it as long. There is a difference between what the Ascians do and what Hydaelyn did, and what Hydaelyn did is worse. For the Ascians, killing humans is no different than killing those claimed by a primal: just part of the war. Hydaelyn more or less ate her most loyal follower. When a villain proves how evil they are by killing one of their minions once they've served their purpose? This is that. It just happened to be the "good guys" doing it, so we want to make excuses.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Which means perhaps there was a way all along for Rejoining to take place without the massive death toll that resets humanity.

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Maybe, but I'm not sure what it would then take.

According to WOTM, "Across ten and three were we then divided. Reflections of the Source, each possessed of a shard. They seek to tear down the barriers which surround the Source. Thus do they rejoice in their Ardor - in your calamities - for each marks a Rejoining."

Assuming their goal of bringing Zodiark and Hydaelyn back together remains the same, how would one get through barriers without breaking them, or without causing massive destruction, death, and chaos first?

Then again...we've done exactly that, in a couple different ways. We made it through Garuda's winds by creating a counter, and again at Azys Lla by creating essentially a spear to break a hole. Now while the second could be considered to be a small scale version of the Calamities (event happens, triggers collapse of the entire thing as a result)...this almost certain a crack pot theory, but what if a certain someone plans to use us as the benign counter that can pass through the barrier without destroying it, thus getting to what is inside?

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Our body count is not small, either, sorry. Not calamitous, sure, but we haven't been at it as long. There is a difference between what the Ascians do and what Hydaelyn did, and what Hydaelyn did is worse. For the Ascians, killing humans is no different than killing those claimed by a primal: just part of the war. Hydaelyn more or less ate her most loyal follower. When a villain proves how evil they are by killing one of their minions once they've served their purpose? This is that. It just happened to be the "good guys" doing it, so we want to make excuses.

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This also ties in with Hydaelyn's approach of shielding Krile and letting everybody else perish back in Val. I know I keep going on about it but...it's just really, really dubious. We can't save everybody, sure, but if given the choice how many lives would the Scions/WoL cast aside in favour of saving one individual?

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Hydaelyn more or less ate her most loyal follower. When a villain proves how evil they are by killing one of their minions once they've served their purpose? This is that. It just happened to be the "good guys" doing it, so we want to make excuses.

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Is it? What was Hydaelyn trying to prove by having Minfilia sacrificed? All I'm seeing is an act of sheer desperation, she couldn't even muster the power to whisk Minfilia off herself, she had to hijack Flow. All this was done simply to come into contact with us again, since she didn't even have the power for that anymore... It's certainly regrettable, but given she got cut off mid sentence as it is, it's probably best that she didn't waste any time apologizing for the obvious dick move.

I mean really... Lets forget any agenda Hydaelyn or Elidibus might have... Who benefits from Minfilia being sacrificed exactly? I'd say Elidibus, he benefits from the grief we should feel, it makes for a more compelling argument for us not to trust Hydaelyn, we wouldn't even be having this conversation were that not the case. Either Hydaelyn and Elidibus are in cahoots, or this was simply just a final desperate attempt on Hydaelyns part... By her own account she'd been failing for eras...

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Originally Posted by Theodric

This also ties in with Hydaelyn's approach of shielding Krile and letting everybody else perish back in Val. I know I keep going on about it but...it's just really, really dubious. We can't save everybody, sure, but if given the choice how many lives would the Scions/WoL cast aside in favour of saving one individual?

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It's a simple case of Hydaelyn being drained... She no longer has any power left, after Praetorium she wasn't even able to communicate with us anymore. Lahabrea very much succeeded in what he set out to do with Ultima. Protecting Krile (which given Krile was knocked out for all this time, seems like a significant step down from the protection we received) and telling Minfilia to run back where last ditch efforts to get us to come find her ourselves; Krile had the knowledge to figure everything out, and she knew we'd come looking for Minfilia. It was seemingly the only method of contacting us left available to her... She even failed in that arguably, I don't really feel any the wiser for our (final?) meeting... She ran out of power before telling us what to do next...

I think the "We have no choice" repitition is getting to be played out, which is why Hydelyn's desperation is becoming more and more, yet people are finding it less tolerable. The negative consequences born of hijacking Minfillia body and soul will be why some will start to doubt Hydelyn's actions.
some just are weary of the whole matter, or are not convinced annihilating the Ascians is really the way to do it.
Derplander's presence doesn't clear the waters any.

Either way, Minfillia's fate is the sort of thing I'd rather not endorse. as they say: "It gets easier after the first time."

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I think the "We have no choice" repitition is getting to be played out, which is why Hydelyn's desperation is becoming more and more, yet people are finding it less tolerable. The negative consequences born of hijacking Minfillia body and soul will be why some will start to doubt Hydelyn's actions.
some just are weary of the whole matter, or are not convinced annihilating the Ascians is really the way to do it.

Either way, Minfillia's fate is the sort of thing I'd rather not endorse. as they say: "It gets easier after the first time."

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I agree.
While Minfilia's fate is an unfortunate, horrible thing that I am not trying to romanticize, I will admit I am rather pleased at the ambiguity it adds to Hydaelyn in general.

When your close friend is reduced to being a doll mouthpiece for your Goddess, you kind of have to step back and take a look at the situation and I appreciate that SE is going in that direction, narratively.

Oh I'm not endorsing it, I just don't see what Hydaelyn gets out of this... Aside from telling us "important" information, all that has been achieved is casting some significant doubt on the path we've been following... Elidibus could waltz out and go "I told you you'd agree with me if you knew! If you'd joined us sooner Minifilia would still be here!" and he'd be right.

She burnt up Minfilia to get a whole minute of dialog with us, and then she ran out of power... What is the "evil" implication here? She hasn't sacrificed Minfilia and gained more power, she's sacrificed Minfilia and failed to enlighten or guide us further... She hasn't gone "Hey, bring me more people to burn up so I can keep going!", she didn't even have the power to take Minfilia herself, she had to "trick" Minfilia into this scenario, how is she going to do that again if sacrifices are the new norm for her?

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Oh I'm not endorsing it, I just don't see what Hydaelyn gets out of this... Aside from telling us "important" information, all that has been achieved is casting some significant doubt on the path we've been following... Elidibus could waltz out and go "I told you you'd agree with me if you knew! If you'd joined us sooner Minifilia would still be here!" and he'd be right.

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You amused me with gloating Elidibus, so take my like.

My crackpot thought on the bolded is that Hydaelyn can't resist the Echo, either. You were right there, directly communicating her, expecting answers regarding Minfilia and she has none to give save the truth. She couldn't directly push you away because of the Echo until she completely lacked the strength to sustain you, essentially doing the Mothercrystal equivalent of passing out. I guess I'm trying to say you were "invading" her, much like you "invade" someone's memories.

Edit for clarification: The Antitower was different, because, unlike other times, where she initiates communication with you, you initiated communication with her. And with the Echo probing her like that, she was unable to push you away.