It's not a question whether or not it's useful, it's a question of whether or not it's worth dealing with lower healing throughput and trashy cooldowns for something as marginal as a slight TP reduction that becomes a complete non-point since there's only a handful of fights where TP management becomes a big issue; or a damage reduction that you can't summon when needed in a game that's all about premeditated damage. It is illusion of strategy if survivability increase is 0.01%.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
Either make the cards so good and so controllable they actually make a difference (as opposed to "huh, that's cool" format they have now) or revamp the baseline healing ability to the point it doesn't become a burden.
Thoughts from a 60 AST & 60 WHM
Printable View
-
07-09-2015, 03:28 PMKaren_Cerfrumos
-
07-09-2015, 03:28 PMSuzakuCMXThe strategy is in finding a way to use the card. You don't rely on RNG. You rely on knowing how to use a card you pulled through RNG. If you know you want a card at a certain time, shuffle the first card you get if it's not it, Spread it if you do get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rewind
Which AST can't do, because AST isn't as strong at healing as SCH or WHM and their cards don't currently compensate. Buffing the cards will not make you bring an AST over WHM/SCH since AST cannot keep a party alive through healing intensive fights due to weaker potencies, less tools, and worse MP management in most cases. AST is currently fine if you overgear the content, and is probably actually better than SCH/WHM if you don't need a lot of heals and just want to burn through a fight (Ex: old content) because of their card buffs. But on cutting edge content, you need to be able to save your party from the brink of death, which AST can't do currently.Quote:
A WHM doesn't need to buff per say but has the ability to 'save the raid' with strong heals through unpredictable damage and abilities.[/I]
Let me put it another way: AST is a healer that currently does not meet healing requirements. It'd be like if MCH/BRD couldn't meet DPS checks even though they take up a DPS slot. You don't buff their utility in that case, you buff their damage (which SE did). -
07-09-2015, 03:30 PMAlahra
It's worth noting that there is a difference between "has a use" and "is useful." Just because you can drop Spear on yourself in a 4-man dungeon to shorten your Luminiferous cooldown doesn't mean you *need* it for that or that you will notice its effects in the long run. It may end up having an overall negligible effect on the experience. Spear in particular is bad for this in 4-mans because the Expanded Royal Road buff is essentially a loss for your next buff. Spire and Ewer at least give Extend, which is almost always useful, except when you already have the Extend waiting (which is where the RNG can be very punishing at times).
-
07-09-2015, 03:32 PMSuzakuCMXWhich is why I'm saying focus on buffing their healing and CDs and not their cardsQuote:
Originally Posted by Karen_Cerfrumos
AST is fine in everything but the end raids, which is where TP and MP management is an issue. Which is when you want those cards.Quote:
TP reduction that becomes a complete non-point since there's only a handful of fights where TP management becomes a big issue; or a damage reduction that you can't summon when needed in a game that's all about premeditated damage.
As for the damage reduction, I doubt SE has balanced any fights on 10% Damage Reduction from an RNG card, which means Bole is just making the healers and the tanks breathe easier when you draw it.
As I am repeating for at least the 3rd time in this thread, AST are healers first and buffs are icing. They currently cannot compete on a basic healing level and that is the problem.
No, there isn't. Useful means "able to be used," as opposed to "unable to be used," as in there is no point in that card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
Why in the world are we talking as if 4 man dungeons matter for anything? Nothing is balanced around 4 man dungeons. AST is fine in 4 man dungeons.Quote:
Just because you can drop Spear on yourself in a 4-man dungeon to shorten your Luminiferous cooldown doesn't mean you *need* it for that or that you will notice its effects in the long run.
-
07-09-2015, 03:33 PMGideonHighmournCouldn't have said it better. This is part of what I've been trying to explain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
AST feels incredibly unsatisfying in 4-man content because of this, and it's not because their healing is sub-par. It's because the core mechanic that separates AST from SCH and WHM is poorly implemented.
However, in 8-man content AST lacks considerably in the healing department, and then also feels unsatisfying to play, as it only caters to perfect scenarios and flawless execution by team mates.
Some people actually care about 4 man dungeons, as well. Especially since, what? Only 15% of the playerbase even finished BCoB? I'd say it's important.Quote:
Why in the world are we talking as if 4 man dungeons matter for anything? Nothing is balanced around 4 man dungeons. AST is fine in 4 man dungeons.
-
07-09-2015, 03:37 PMKaren_CerfrumosOkay, yeah, but "Is fine" is a bad proposition. Why would I take an AST into a 4 man when I can go as a SCH, offer consistent haste and DPS, and finish the dungeon much faster without breaking a sweat?Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
-
07-09-2015, 03:40 PMSuzakuCMXBecause you don't need a WHM or SCH to clear the dungeon, you find AST more fun, they complete the content just as well as the SCH or WHM, and they don't actually finish dungeons much more quickly than an AST?Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen_Cerfrumos
Whether or not they feel satisfying in a dungeon is a totally different argument than whether or not they are balanced vs. SCH or WHM. I agree that cards feel lacking in four-man content because half the cards don't feel as useful in four-man content, especially when you never run out of TP in dungeons unless you died and you continually draw Spear and Spire.
But then again, if you made the card buffs powerful enough to always be useful in 4-mans, they'd likely be far too powerful for 8-mans. -
07-09-2015, 03:43 PMGideonHighmournThey could easily make them always useful in 4-mans without being overpowered. At the very least, combining the Spire/Ewer cards and Spear/Arrow cards would make it feel a lot less unsatisfying in 4-man content, without making it overpowered in 8-man content. Especially since the Spear on it's own is very very situational outside highly organized gameplay. Making shuffle not redraw the same card would also go a long way with this. It's incredibly frustrating to play AST in 4-man content currently, and again, it's not because the healing is sub-par.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
-
07-09-2015, 03:44 PMAlahraColloquially, there is, especially when it comes to game mechanics/abilities. Nobody posting on these forums is writing dissertations, they're instead writing informally, and so sometimes you have to get at their *intent* rather than the very letter of what they wrote. When people are saying the cards don't feel "useful," they mean that they aren't noticing their impact in play, even if they know the "proper" way to use them.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
Spire, for instance, has a pretty obvious use, but when used to reduce TP costs, it frequently has no *impact*. Ditto for Ewer or Spear.
And, for what it's worth, 4-man dungeons do matter. Everyone has to do them for tomes. Don't pretend that the general dominance of BRD and BLM in 4-man dungeons at 2.0 didn't play a part in the adjustments that followed for melee classes (though they were not, obviously, the *whole* part). The devs do consider balance in the game as a whole. Personally, I heal primarily in 4-mans and DPS in 8-mans, and I am sure there are many players that do in fact care how a class performs or whether or not it is fun in 4-mans. -
07-09-2015, 03:50 PMSuzakuCMXI don't think combining cards is a good option because it mitigates the RNG far too much. From what I've seen in the bug reports forum, Spear was also supposed to lower the cooldowns of abilities already used, which it doesn't so far, and changing it to that would make it MUCH better.Quote:
Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn
I don't like the combining either, because it means you have a 33% chance of drawing any single card, and Spear/Arrow is incredibly strong on anyone, whereas Spire/Ewer and Balance/Bole are much less effective on a single target since only half of the buff is useful. It just means you would feel bad when you don't draw the Spear/Arrow card.
I'd rather they reduce the CD of Shuffle to 60s and have RR reduce Draw's cooldown to 15s, in addition to buffing their base healing so you can actually heal as well as SCH/WHM minus their buffs.
Also there is still the problem of Noct Collective Unconscious sucking and Celestial Opposition sucking, and Noct sucking in general compared to Diurnal. Card changes are, I feel, near the bottom of what AST needs to be comparable to WHM/SCH for content.
Like I said, Spear always has an impact on SCH/SMN/NIN and frequently has an impact on tanks for CDs and yourself for ED and LA. Is it always the best card? Nope. And if I draw an Ewer during a trash pull, I Spread it or RR it so I can DPS during bosses and then spam Benefic II.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
There is not a single class in the game that doesn't have abilities that are useless in dungeons. Dissipate, Eos, Sacred Soil, Asylum, Virus, TP/MP Regen Songs, Silences, Binds, Heavies, any "oh shit" button is generally useless if you are playing correctly. That doesn't mean they have to be changed to feel useful. Cards could feel better, I agree. They just aren't the primary problem with AST getting into progression groups.
I don't understand this statement, because whether or not card buffs feel useful in 4-mans AST is going to be worse than SCH/WHM in end-game.Quote:
\Personally, I heal primarily in 4-mans and DPS in 8-mans, and I am sure there are many players that do in fact care how a class performs or whether or not it is fun in 4-mans.