Honest question: If every player/class/job is equal,who is unique? (Gameplay topic)

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Originally Posted by Aegis

And that's depressing as hell. It's also not necessary. By determining a role's worth on just one metric you reduce the role to that metric. A DPS will never be anything other than a DPS because you measure it by its DPS. Content then becomes designed around those metrics. When they're designing bosses, they look at how much hps can be done under optimal circumstances, how much dps can be done under optimal circumstances and design the content and tune it to those figures.

It's just so ... sterile.

It means you'll never again see one person solo'ing a god.

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That's such an archaic view of thinking. Nobody should feel excluded because you want to feel special. Nobody likes being THE class that's terrible for an entire patch of content because the developers decided as much. Having everyone do close to the same DPS and having different playstyle is a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Scootaloo

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Here's something for you to read to understand the point:

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Originally Posted by Dwill

What you call "sameness", I call balance. The goal of balance is to be able to achieve the same result using different jobs:

Tanks:

• Paladins are less prone to spike damage, more mitigation tool, less damage, unlimited amount of stuns. Can Main tank and Off tank with ease.
• Warriors have a bigger HP pool, gets healed for more, more damage, unique resource system. Can Main tank and Off tank with ease.

Healers:

• White Mage: More focused toward raw healing than damage prevention.
• Scholar: More focused toward damage prevention than raw healing.

Ranged DPS:

• Black Mage: Caster that is more focused toward nukes and bursts, outstanding at AoE, unique resource system.
• Summoners: Caster that is more focused toward DoTs and constant steady output, uses a pet, hardly penalized by movement.
• Bards: Ranged damage dealers that uses TP instead of MP, great support abilities, amazing burst, not penalized by movement whatsoever.

Melee DPS:

• Monk: Uses a unique stance mechanics to deal its damage, extremely good single target damage, decent utility via Mantra.
• Dragoons: Uses the ever so popular Jumps, pretty good balance of single target and AoE damage, good gap closers.

It's the difference in playstyle and job mechanics that makes this game actually pretty well balanced. So of course, if it's balanced, the end result will be the same when people press their buttons. Tanks will tank, DPS will DPS and healers will heal so in the end, the only things that changes is how you achieve the results you want.

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OP, if you want to generalize and be wrong about so many classes why not just whine that there's a get hit, a heal shit and a hit shit class type?

SCH and WHM are so the same that the first time I switched from SCH to WHM I almost wiped on a Wanderer Palace speedrun :(
And I'm pretty sure that playing WAR while doing only BB combo, popping the few cooldowns while sitting on rage stacks indeed feels like playing PLD. Not for the healer though :(

To be fair, the OP has a point. Classes have no DEFINING characteristic which makes one more useful than the other for a particular type of content. The mechanics might change, but it's just window dressing, and has no real impact on gameplay. In my opinion, the only exception to this rule is tanks, where Paladin still reigns supreme in high end content simply because of the crazy damage that a warrior would take in the same situation, putting too much stress on the healers.

Still, one exception does not a rule make and it would be nice if classes had unique abilities which make them truly stand out from the crowd. Some would argue it would promote excluding certain classes from content, I would argue it would promote a wider range of classes being invited.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Some would argue it would promote excluding certain classes from content, I would argue it would promote a wider range of classes being invited.

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Except that's not how it works. The moment one class becomes superior to others for specific content, people will stack that class and give everyone else the middle finger. FFXI saw this. WoW saw this. I'm pretty sure Lineage II saw this, too.

Variety is already pseudo-encouraged in group comps because of the small penalty to building the LB gauge when having multiples of the same class, not to mention keeping the loot pools from boss mobs in mind. At the same time, having more than one of every job is not detrimental to the run, so we're actually in a very good place design-wise. We can have a "one of each" comp and a "some repeats but roles are covered" comp and still be able to clear content. Why you would destroy that so that a few can feel unique and special is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

It only means they are unable to see what others can see.　That's not a problem of the classes, it's a problem with the observer (OP).

For relevance;
http://flipvine.com/posters/view/image/78

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I love you for this.

PS: Mechanics are the best place for variety between jobs and classes. The fact that MNK has greased lightning while DRG has relatively unforgiving positional requirements does make those two play and feel differently despite being competitive against each other AND fulfilling the role of melee DPS. PLD and WAR actually are very different because of the approach to tanking each take. BLM and SMN also are distinct from one another without making groups take one over the other, and that is a good thing in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Except that's not how it works. The moment one class becomes superior to others for specific content, people will stack that class and give everyone else the middle finger. FFXI saw this. WoW saw this. I'm pretty sure Lineage II saw this, too.

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See, that's the problem. Not that a job has an advantage against X or Y, but that the advantage is perceived as being some kind of exclusive one-way door to content. It's people's perceptions that need to change first.

People like to conveniently forget about many of the mechanics FFXIV swept under the rug in the name of evening the playing field, and the selfsame mechanics which FFXI used to make each class shine in their own right. The real savior would be to bring back weaknesses and resistances. Have mobs which are highly resilient to damage aside from blunt, piercing or slashing damage, for example. This would encourage players to bring along dragoons and bards for piercing, or Monks for blunt damage. Mobs which are resilient to melee, but weak to magic encourages you to bring along summoners and black mages.

Is it really so hard a concept for people to grasp that having an advantage over a target need not exclude anyone? Most of the game revolves around instanced dungeons, which means players have a variety of jobs working towards the same goal. This isn't FFXI where the open world is your battlefield. Having a reason to create a balanced party may be just what this game needs going forwards.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

PLD and WAR actually are very different because of the approach to tanking each take.

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Yes... one is basically a HP sink, while the other actually defends.

If you don't think classes will get excluded from content just remember old Garuda HM and no melees ever. or when people thought SMN was bad because people are stupid. Or if T4 didn't force a melee into the party

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Originally Posted by WellGramarye

FFXIV's progression is strictly vertical where as FFXI's progression (at least when I last played, which was the launch of the first Abyssea expansion) was mostly horizontal.

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Perhaps moving to horizontal progression would be good for the game? Certainly adds longevity for content. When the expansion releases do you believe anyone will do coil anymore? Already no-one does Coil 1 except to access Coil 2. Sky gear was valid for a solid decade. Even though XI had much, much more endgame.

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Originally Posted by WellGramarye

While classes were "unique" it also meant that only certain classes were brought to the table. Going meriting? SAM SAM SAM BRD WHM. Wanna play a BST, BLM, or SMN? Better love to solo from 1-75. Classism is BAD for a game. The more you ostracise your player base, the less likely they will keep playing. Even during the FFXI era players always took the path to least resistance. Every zerg encounter was: BRD rotations for super buffs, throw as many SAM as you can, unless you had a reliced DRK, perhaps a MNK or two for hundred fists, couple of healers outside the party and a THF to tag the mob with a Thief Knife just in case Treasure Hunter actually worked. Every other job could just sit and watch until that one or two instances they might be useful. Everything you suggest would make the game worse than it currently is.

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Black Mage was, for a long time one of the most popular levelling jobs because of its ability to Magic Burst. It was one of the most popular endgame jobs for sleep/nukes. I levelled my BLM after Aht Urgahn and never solo'd. Used to form up in parties of 3 or 4 and get excellent XP in pet camps. This being another example of how having different classes actually playing differently is a good thing. I saw more camps than people who did not play BLM. I learnt new mechanics of the game.

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Originally Posted by Brine_Gildchaff

No, this is what makes you feel like your job is useless and makes you feel like "that dumbass n00b who doesn't even know how to play this game rite". We have already seen this on at least two separate occasions in the history just of 2.xx. We know from empirical evidence that the XIV fanbase WILL act this way and WILL ostracize gamers who want to play an "unpopular" class. If this is what you want then you are in the wrong game.

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But you can have all the jobs. This game is not designed for someone to get one class to 50 and forget about levelling. Such a player would be ostracized even if they picked the 'right' job.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

PS: Mechanics are the best place for variety between jobs and classes. The fact that MNK has greased lightning while DRG has relatively unforgiving positional requirements does make those two play and feel differently

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They don't really play differently, though, do they? Get in position, weapon skill. Move into next position, weapon skill. Weave in buffs and off-GCDs when you can. They both have one best rotation, if you're not doing it you're sub-optimal DPS. Yawn.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

See, that's the problem. Not that a job has an advantage against X or Y, but that the advantage is perceived as being some kind of exclusive one-way door to content. It's people's perceptions that need to change first.

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Expecting people to change their perceptions is wasted time and effort. People as a rule go for the path of least resistance, and that becomes the norm. Regardless of the game in question, trends do form and the community follows them. This is why I've argued that the developers should do their best to influence and keep the trends under control instead of doing whatever and then letting things fall where they may.

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Is it really so hard a concept for people to grasp that having an advantage over a target need not exclude anyone?

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Regardless of what your intention is, exclusion is pretty much imminent because what you're describing invites that sort of behavior from players. Gameplay and mechanics (and imbalances if left unfixed) have always had a very strong influence on player behavior.

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Having a reason to create a balanced party may be just what this game needs going forwards.

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As I've said, variety is currently encouraged. What the game doesn't do is force variety on the player, and that is a good thing. Otherwise you have issues like Instructor Razuvious, an encounter that could not be cleared unless you had two shadow priests in the raid.

Balanced party comps already exist, but they are determined by the roles of the trinity. This is also fine. Loot distribution also has a hand in wanting to form a balanced comp (especially since unlike WoW and SWTOR you cannot break down gear into enchanting mats/mods for the raid to roll on if no one needs/wants it). it just happens naturally over the game forcing you into it 100% of the time.

On a positive note. It's too soon to tell, but Yoshi's comments that Ninja won't be as position-dependent as DRG or MNK might be a sign that it has some unique gameplay and actually feels different to the other DPS.

If so, and they feel free to experiment with the other new classes also, it may not feel quite so homogenized in future.