New hrothgar hairstyles are really bad.

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

Noticing a lack of any sort of apology for basically yanking Hrothgar players around for three years, just the standard 'please understand, we have coded ourselves into a corner'.

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That's more the fault of the translation.

As annoyed as I am at Square, Japanese is spoken and written in such a way that apologies are simply ingrained into the language itself. As a foreigner myself it's almost odd reading, speaking and listening to Japanese because there are dozens of ways to apologize depending on the situation but almost no way to actually express thanks -- at least to an outside observer. If you directly translate Japanese -- especially what's used for press releases and other sorts of spoken or written word released by companies -- you would find that just about every sentence has some apology one way or another. Even "please understand" which sounds patronizing in English is actually an apology, as infuriating as it sounds.

You don't thank people, you apologize for the inconvenience. Even "arigatou" isn't actually -technically- saying thanks, it's a person being apologetic that the other person went out of the way for them. You're sorry they put themselves in a difficult situation for you. In fact many Japanese will often say Sankyu (サンキュ), which is just 'thank you' spoken with Japanese syllables and written in katakana to indicate it's being borrowed simply because apologizing is just... it's the language.

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Originally Posted by Yencat

That's kind of where he lost me.

He's saying he made it clear from the start they couldn't add any at all, but we have the official LL translation saying they would and every now and then (like during the art of Shadowbringers stream) they'd come out and say it'd be a while longer?

So which is it?

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https://i.imgur.com/rZzUPs8.gif

Surprise Surprise....

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Originally Posted by Denji

That's more the fault of the translation.

As annoyed as I am at Square, Japanese is spoken and written in such a way that apologies are simply ingrained into the language itself. As a foreigner myself it's almost odd reading, speaking and listening to Japanese because there are dozens of ways to apologize depending on the situation but almost no way to actually express thanks -- at least to an outside observer. If you directly translate Japanese -- especially what's used for press releases and other sorts of spoken or written word released by companies -- you would find that just about every sentence has some apology one way or another. Even "please understand" which sounds patronizing in English is actually an apology, as infuriating as it sounds.

You don't thank people, you apologize for the inconvenience. Even "arigatou" isn't actually -technically- saying thanks, it's a person being apologetic that the other person went out of the way for them. You're sorry they put themselves in a difficult situation for you. In fact many Japanese will often say Sankyu (サンキュ), which is just 'thank you' spoken with Japanese syllables and written in katakana to indicate it's being borrowed simply because apologizing is just... it's the language.

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True enough, as I've been making an effort to study it... time to actually go check the source.

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

True enough, as I've been making an effort to study it... time to actually go check the source.

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You'll actually find it's difficult for Japanese to not be written without a small apology in one way or another without relying on foreign words or intentionally peppering their words with insults or ignoring honorifics.

It's also why non-native speakers have a reputation for being simultaneously rude but overexcited/happy and in your face. A lot of it is written and spoken in a sort of passive tense and not passive as in passive-aggressive (although that is VERY much a thing) but just with a lot of subtle cues that are missed by anyone who isn't used to them. It's not just culture, it's language. Much like how the Japanese find it strange that people from other countries will declare their love for something when the word for love in Japanese is reserved for very close family and partners an that overuse of the word diminishes its impact. Additionally, there's also the refusal of help or kind gestures that's also seen as a sort of apology or way to give thanks.

A good example of this would be when you're invited out to or over for dinner. It's not actually meant to be taken literally. They're offering you something but you're supposed to refuse so that you can gracefully bow out and look like the good guy. If they offer again you then need to give a VERY hesitant maybe and then if they insist it's fine then you go. This creates awkward situations where Japanese people will typically offer something and then end up shocked when foreigners actually expect it.

"Hyperactive american with blonde hair" and "Japanese person who dyes their hair blonde and goes out of their way to be rude" are very, very big tropes in their media for a reason. Looking at you, Ryuji from Persona 5.

This of course isn't an excuse. As they have a significant amount of foreign players they need to realize what impact their words will have on all languages, not just Japanese. Unfortunately however it's also very Japanese to not... consider what non-Japanese want. The most famous example of this would be Sega's repeated failures in the 90s and early 2000s where Sega of Japan was so frustrated that Sega of Europe and America expected to be involved in things that they would intentionally sabotage the foreign branches of their own company simply to spite them.

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Originally Posted by Yencat

That's kind of where he lost me.

He's saying he made it clear from the start they couldn't add any at all, but we have the official LL translation saying they would and every now and then (like during the art of Shadowbringers stream) they'd come out and say it'd be a while longer?

So which is it?

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-Letter from the Producer LIVE Part LIII Digest (08/29/2019)
(01:51:49)
Q: I used fantasia to change to Viera and I'm enjoying it. As they're a special race and it may not be possible, but feel like the number of hairstyles available for Viera and Hrothgar is quite limited. Do you have plans to add more in the future?
A: We certainly plan on adding more, so please wait for future patches. However, it will still be race-specific, so there won’t be as many selections when compared to other races.

They never said anything to contradict this statement either, which makes this whole situation rather frustrating. To say this three years ago and then present the level of quality shown with these earless and poorly chosen hairstyles, only to then retort to backlash with "you'll have to pay the price and wait longer." Where did these last three years go and what were they doing with them? They were able to sculpt 17 NEW hairstyles for Male Viera, how is it now a monumental task to sculpt 4-5 new hairstyles for Hrothgar?

Wouldn't be smart to ask some help from mod artist to help with the hairstyles? I mean we have seen them making many good mod artworks, so maybe they can even help out with this problem too.

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Originally Posted by Denji

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And then such people go onto anonymous boards and release their inner wild beast... just like us. :^) From what I could understand lurking on the 5ch FFO board reacting to the PLL, it was pretty spicy and I had a laugh at how vicious some were. No wonder the devs asked for some toning down...

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Originally Posted by Pimsan20

Wouldn't be smart to ask some help from mod artist to help with the hairstyles? I mean we have seen them making many good mod artworks, so maybe they can even help out with this problem too.

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Japanese players are mostly vanilla users and a vast majority play on consoles. PC gaming isn't even remotely a big thing there and most aren't even aware mods exist. It would also mean working alongside foreigners and I've already listed many complications related to that above. It would also look bad if you told your boss "hey, we couldn't get the job done but here's this guy who did it for free and did a better job than us".

It wouldn't surprise me if Yoshi-P's superiors have no idea about any of the issues related to FFXIV, like everywhere else there's a big disconnect between management and workers and typically in Japan the superior is the one who takes all fault so to admit an issue is to admit to your boss that you're the one who is to blame and the one to be punished.

It's why Square's president released that absurdly and comically tone death new years letter. He has absolutely no clue what Square is actually doing.

I'm grateful that they mentioned this topic in the live letter and I'm happy to hear that they want our feedback. I have several questions that I would really love to hear answers about.

ライブレターでこの話題に触れてくれたのはありがたいし、私たちの意見を求めてくれているのだと思うと、嬉しくなります。いくつか質問があるのですが、ぜひ回答をお願いします。

In the Letter from the Producer LIVE Part LIII Digest (08/29/2019), someone asked if Viera and Hrothgar were going to get new hairstyles. You replied:
A: We certainly plan on adding more, so please wait for future patches. However, it will still be race-specific, so there won’t be as many selections when compared to other races.

プロデューサーからの手紙 LIVE Part LIII ダイジェスト（2019/08/29）で、「ヴィエラやロスガルは新しいヘアスタイルになるのか」という質問がありました。という回答がありましたね。
A：確かに追加する予定ですので、今後のパッチをお待ちください。ただし、やはり種族固有のものになるので、他の種族と比較すると選択肢はそれほど多くはないでしょう。

When was the decision made to not create new race specific hairstyles and why didn't you announce it to the community?

新しい人種別のヘアスタイルを作らないというのはいつ決定されたのですか？

When was the decision made that removing the ears was the only viable solution and why didn't you announce it to the community ahead of time?

耳を取り外すことが唯一の現実的な解決策であるという判断はいつなされたのでしょうか。また、なぜそれを事前にコミュニティに発表しなかったのでしょうか。

Your team was able to create 17 new hairstyles for Male Viera alone, why is it now a monumental task to create new hairstyles for Hrothgar?

メンズビエラだけでも17種類のヘアスタイルを開発されているのに、なぜロスガルのヘアスタイルを作るのは難しいのでしょうか？

How have the last three years been used with regard to hairstyles for Hrothgar? Also, do you think more transparency in the process would have saved time had you asked for our input earlier?

ロズガルのヘアスタイルについて、この3年間はどのように使われていたのでしょうか。また、プロセスを透明化することで、もっと早く私たちの意見を聞いていれば、時間を短縮できたと思いますか？

Why were the earless hairstyles considered a solution? Are you trying to avoid clipping? The Hrothgar in Bozja are able to wear hairstyles outside of those locked to their faces. Why can't we?

なぜ耳なしヘアスタイルが解決策とされたのか？クリッピングを回避するためでしょうか？ボジャのロスガルは、顔に固定されている以外のヘアスタイルをすることができます。なぜ、私たちはできないのでしょうか？

You mentioned that the price to pay will be that the new race specific hairstyles will take time and will be fewer. Will this be a priority for the devs so that Hrothgar, who have been waiting for three years, don't have to wait another three?

その代償として、新しい種族固有のヘアスタイルは時間がかかり、数も少なくなるとおっしゃっていましたね。3年間待っていたロスガルがさらに3年待たされることがないよう、開発陣にとって優先順位の高いものになるのでしょうか？

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There is a strong sense of frustration in those of us who have been told to wait for three years only to be presented with this quality of hairstyles. Now we are being told that we'll have to "pay the price" and wait even longer for something that we were told was coming back in 2019. I personally feel that this whole situation could have been avoided if you, the dev team, would have communicated with us along the way so that we could have had the opportunity to let you know that removing our ears and giving us hairstyles that do not properly fit our faces isn't what we've been asking for since the launch of Shadowbringers.

3年待てと言われても、このクオリティのヘアスタイルを見せられるのは、私たちの中では悔しい思いがある。そして今、「代償を払ってでも、もっと長く待ってくれ」と言われているのです。個人的には、「Shadowbringers」発売当初から、耳を切り落としたり、顔に合わないヘアスタイルを提供することは、私たちが求めていたものではないことを伝える機会を、開発チームの皆さんが私たちとコミュニケーションしてくれれば、この事態は避けられたのではないかと思っています。

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Originally Posted by SacraAnima

I'm grateful that they mentioned this topic in the live letter and I'm happy to hear that they want our feedback. I have several questions that I would really love to hear answers about.

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I encourage everyone to like SacraAnima's post :) These are really good questions that I'm sure everyone would love to have answered. Clarification is exactly what we need

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Would these questions be more suited in their own thread? Then we can go and show as much support as we can on it :) that way we don't have to worry about your post getting buried