"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

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Originally Posted by Celine_Aurora

What happens if I'm running ahead as DPS, grab aggro, then run back and park myself right on top of you so you can easily get threat from everything just by doing your normal AoE rotation?

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...this is acceptable.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I have rules about this.

If I'm a tank pulling and nobody is running ahead but aggro is gained off me, I will pick it up immediately, it was my fault for not getting enough aggro on them to avoid that. If you run ahead, I will not grab the aggro UNLESS the healer heals you, at which point I'm doing it to save that healer in advance.

If I'm healer, I will heal you if you accidentally grabbed aggro off the tank while they were running ahead, because again, tank didn't have enough aggro but was trying to grab everything, so I will keep you alive. If you pull ahead of the tank and the tank grabs it, I will heal you because the tank feels you shouldn't die. If you pull ahead and the tank does not grab the aggro, I will let you go down.

If I'm DPS and I steal the aggro off the tank from the adds they first picked up, I will sprint and catch up to them, standing there in front of them when he finally stops so they can pick the adds up as they come from behind. If they and the healer let me die, I won't bother AoEing the adds until they're all gathered for the rest of the dungeon.

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You're leaving out the potential for a DPS to pull a pack for the tank and self mitigate it both with their own HP, for the tank, and use their ams length to slow them, for the tank. Having all these rules is pointless imo. Just work together.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

...this is acceptable.

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We are in agreement in this case, because this is how it should be - if the DPS players want to pull, they should make it easier for you to get aggro back.

I'm sure you realize that some players take your reasoning a step further and would actively move away from that player or stop doing their AoE rotation until they are dead. Not many, but I've met players like this.

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Originally Posted by Celine_Aurora

What happens if I'm running ahead as DPS, grab aggro, then run back and park myself right on top of you so you can easily get threat from everything just by doing your normal AoE rotation?

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This is literally what I do, En Avant makes it ridiculously easy to get ahead of the Tank, so I will often dash ahead, right click the most forward enemy on the pack so my auto attack goes off, then immediately dash backwards and park myself atop of the Tank, then pop Arm's Length to give the Tank a small amount of free mitigation, and start dancing, by the time I am finished with my dance steps, the mobs should be grouped up or at least within 15y so they will all get slapped, and the Tank should have no issue grabbing aggro by spamming AoE, which is what they would be doing anyway.

I am of mind that if the DPS is grabbing aggro and running away with it, then they are being disruptive and kinda deserve to die, and even if the Tank tries to save them they might not be able, the entire point of this thread is that dungeons are a cooperative effort, and being disruptive for any reason as any role is equally bad, the Tank may have an easier time being toxic if they wish to, but it doesn't mean they are the only ones able to.

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Originally Posted by Celine_Aurora

We are in agreement in this case, because this is how it should be - if the DPS players want to pull, they should make it easier for you to get aggro back.

I'm sure you realize that some players take your reasoning a step further and would actively move away from that player or stop doing their AoE rotation until they are dead. Not many, but I've met players like this.

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I've encountered so many that don't make it easy to get the aggro back, which is where the jaded perspective comes from for tanking. Or in the case of healing, DPS who do this and run so far out of healing range to where death is the only option...and who also stand in bad constantly. There's only so much you can take before you just reach the point where you're more than willing to let them die over and over again. To quote an old friend, "Stupid should hurt."

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

This is literally what I do, En Avant makes it ridiculously easy to get ahead of the Tank, so I will often dash ahead, right click the most forward enemy on the pack so my auto attack goes off, then immediately dash backwards and park myself atop of the Tank, then pop Arm's Length to give the Tank a small amount of free mitigation, and start dancing, by the time I am finished with my dance steps, the mobs should be grouped up or at least within 15y so they will all get slapped, and the Tank should have no issue grabbing aggro by spamming AoE, which is what they would be doing anyway.

I am of mind that if the DPS is grabbing aggro and running away with it, then they are being disruptive and kinda deserve to die, and even if the Tank tries to save them they might not be able, the entire point of this thread is that dungeons are a cooperative effort, and being disruptive for any reason as any role is equally bad, the Tank may have an easier time being toxic if they wish to, but it doesn't mean they are the only ones able to.

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Yes, of course you are right. If a DPS grabs aggro and refuses to bring the mobs back to the tnak, or starts kiting them who knows where, at that point they are on their own. If I am tanking or healing, I'll still do my best to keep them alive - but I won't chase them down if it means less healing for the tank (if healing is even necessary because you know), or moving the first pack I have threat on in a way that the other DPS can't hit anything with their AoE.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

...this is acceptable.

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Consider, some DPS will run ahead to grab a pack and use Arm's Length to give you some extra mitigation.

Then Bloodbath to heal themselves up.

If done right, it speeds things up a great deal and it lets the DPS have more fun too. Bonus points if the DPS knows how to stun and Feint/Addle

https://i.redd.it/0ifna24cmava1.jpg

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Because I have dealt with that crap constantly since 2.0, and it reached a point to where I'm the jaded tank going "Fine, you do it if you don't think I'm going fast enough," AND the jaded healer going "HOW DARE YOU MAKE ME HEAL UNNECESSARILY, YOU DIE WHEN I SAY SO AND I SAY DIE!" Seriously, I'm at that point to where people will get no sympathy from me, only aggression. I'm also a DPS who will spam their AoE and use their big cooldowns on mobs to speed up the run while running between groups. Just kill the damned things we've got during the pull, stop running ahead of the tank when that only makes this take longer to kill these things.

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Okay well I also play as a tank and healer and I personally don't care who pulls because it's not an issue at all. If enmity were still like how is was in ARR-StB, then sure, I would be annoyed because now I have to stay in tank stance for a bit to ensure I have hate on everything and hope to the Twelve the DPS and Healer use their enmity reduction skills (Quelling Strikes, Diversion, Shroud of Saints, Lucid Dreaming, the NIN ones, etc). However ever since ShB came out, enmity just requires you to be in tank stance, use an AoE rotation and now nothing will escape you. Oh the DPS pulled? Bring them back here and I'll AoE them off of you because my role is to be a tank, which means I have to hold aggro whether I pulled or not. And also mitigate (two mits per pulls + Bloodwhetting. Holmgang too because what else am I gonna use it on? Wet-noodle McGee? unlikely).

If I'm a healer and a DPS pulls, I'll throw a shield on them, then on me and then hang out with the tank because odds are I'll have a few mobs coming my way. DPS above 50% HP once the tank has everything on them? They're fine, just a flesh wound, walk it off (or use Bloodbath if you have it... or if I'm on WHM/AST, enjoy this Regen). If the tank is a YPYT person, then I remove Kardia from them, stick it to the DPS and then we keep going (though I do need to heal more often). I'm more annoyed at the tank at this point because all they have to do is AoE to get things back under control. That's it.

As a reminder to people, Monster Player Kill is against the TOS and thereby is reportable. If tanks are allowing you die over this, that falls under MPK.

As a main tank myself, I discourage pulling for me if only because it is dangerous. Too many times someone has almost died because by the time I get there and grab the mobs, the server will register my hits AFTER the mobs hits the other person. Hence, I sprint and/or try to grab more than 2 mobs with my ranged + provoke, before reaching the pack, so if they peel one off, it's just the one mob hitting them. I also try to range attack everything behind me while on the way to the next pack.

Sprint also has a cooldown, so...yeah.