What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

You didn't answer the question. How can Venat gamble or lack control of something when she's well informed about the future of Emet and her imminent sundering slash?

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Yoshi-P already answered that question in the link the poster provided. In short, the sundering required utilizing her power to its utmost limits. The monumental effort required made the technique something unwieldy to say the least - virtually uncontrollable, and so she was unsure if her attempt to give Emet-Selch an out would actually work. It was also partially up to the man himself; he needed to recognize what was happening, spot the "flaw" in the sundering, and take action to preserve himself.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Yoshi-P already answered that question in the link the poster provided. In short, the sundering required utilizing her power to its utmost limits. The monumental effort required made the technique something unwieldy to say the least - virtually uncontrollable, and so she was unsure if her attempt to give Emet-Selch an out would actually work. It was also partially up to the man himself; he needed to recognize what was happening, spot the "flaw" in the sundering, and take action to preserve himself.

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How was she unsure when she knows his future is at the bottom of the sea playing games with their city? We told her all this. Emet existing in his og form post sundering absolutely requires that he survive the sundering. If it's all one timeline, if Venat is fully informed, then it isn't a gamble. It's a choice.

I also forgot to address Graha-- yes he time traveled and unlike us, he stayed there for a long time. It's unclear what would have occurred on the first without his visit.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

How was she unsure when she knows his future is at the bottom of the sea playing games with their city? We told her all this. Emet existing in his og form post sundering absolutely requires that he survive the sundering. If it's all one timeline, if Venat is fully informed, then it isn't a gamble. It's a choice.

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The future wasn't certain. That's kinda the point. Venat didn't know if she could reach the outcome she sought or not. All she could do was use the knowledge she was given to try for it, and that is precisely what she did. Obviously the narrative took the direction of her being successful, but from an in-universe perspective nothing was over til it was over. Things could've gone awry at any time.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

In fact in general if it's single timeline time loop, why is the game the way it is at all? I could literally write a book of how it really makes pre EW Hydaelyn nonsensical and bizarrely obsessed with drawing out the Ascian conflict and keeping everything exactly the same.

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Yes exactly. That's what we have been saying this whole time. It's a time loop maintained by Venat at the expense of not just the Ancients but everyone else who ever lived on the planet, the shards or any other planet effected by the Endsinger. That's why we say the story should call her out.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The future wasn't certain. That's kinda the point. Venat didn't know if she could reach the outcome she sought or not. All she could do was use the knowledge she was given to try for it, and that is precisely what she did. Obviously the narrative took the direction of her being successful, but from an in-universe perspective nothing was over til it was over. Things could've gone awry at any time.

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And they absolutely would've gone awry if it weren't for the events of Shadowbringers. Remember that Graha pulled us into the first to not only save that shard but also to prevent us from dying as a consequence of it rejoining with the source.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

And they absolutely would've gone awry if it weren't for the events of Shadowbringers. Remember that Graha pulled us into the first to not only save that shard but also to prevent us from dying as a consequence of it rejoining with the source.

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Expecting that we are not done with that alternate timeline, either. I wouldn't be shocked even in the slightest that if in a few expansions from now we basically pull another Shadowbringers, but this time end up in that alternate timeline. They would get to parade around Emet, Elidibus, and Venat version 2. :P

It's gonna be FF14's Warlords of Draenor/Legion moment.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I also forgot to address Graha-- yes he time traveled and unlike us, he stayed there for a long time. It's unclear what would have occurred on the first without his visit.

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If G'raha doesn't go to the First and eventually summon the WoL there, then Zenos stays in Eorzea hunting for us and doesn't stop Varis from releasing the Black Rose, causing the Eighth Calamity and the Rejoining. We know how that goes.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The future wasn't certain. That's kinda the point. Venat didn't know if she could reach the outcome she sought or not. All she could do was use the knowledge she was given to try for it, and that is precisely what she did. Obviously the narrative took the direction of her being successful, but from an in-universe perspective nothing was over til it was over. Things could've gone awry at any time.

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So in the case of the attack, we tell her what she does. In the case of Emet, we don't. Got it. I don't subscribe to your single timeline theory anyway, but you don't seem to be able to make it make sense. That's considering you're in denial that Elidibus spells out that fate can't be changed. And no I didn't take out context, he does tell you that your actions won't affect the future. In that sense with Shadowbringers, we weren't coming at that story from a future point of that world but another. So it's not comparable at all. You cannot say it works just like 5.0 because we don't have access to the future of 5.0 as we did with 6.0 when we visited Elpis.

And my point is that, you cannot cite the same specific assign intention to the sundering if by your own logic it's all just a gamble. Maybe this time, she was just trying to sunder Zodiark, or the local area, and not the entire world. Maybe this time she didn't want to create reflections. Or does something exist that distinguishes what the other possibilities she was accounting for here? Is there a resource for what we told her and what we didn't? Since she was accounting for Emet not surviving (and by extension everything going differently as a result of her attack)? And yes, that's even if you use her words at the end of the trial, because the way she explains it makes her seem disappointed, not pleased. That's even if you use the JP quote by the way because "what's done is done" can also be interpreted as reisignation and/or regret.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

What lore are you referring to that she didn't know what her attack would do? We literally tell her what she does. The walk cutscene, while not a literal retelling of events, shows her doing it deliberately. Also on the mention of not everyone dying; you're right there were THREE survivors from the entire planet. It's also worth noting that the use of the term genocide is not reliant on the effectiveness of said genocide. Not everyone has to be dead for us to call it what it is.

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Which reminds me you can keep throwing around the word genocide, intention always matters.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

So in the case of the attack, we tell her what she does. In the case of Emet, we don't. Got it. I don't subscribe to your single timeline theory anyway, but you don't seem to be able to make it make sense. That's considering you're in denial that Elidibus spells out that fate can't be changed. And no I didn't take out context, he does tell you that your actions won't affect the future.

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We tell her everything, but we can't tell her the exact details of how everything came to pass, because we don't know either. All she could do was try her best to set up the circumstances that would seemingly permit our future to happen, so in that respect, there was always going to be some unavoidable risk involved.

And when Elidibus says "you cannot affect change", he isn't saying we are incapable of doing so - he's saying that we can't if we want our future (the present as is) to come to pass, and to that end, for the timeline to stay as is.

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Yet even should you manage to interact with others, you will be unable to effect meaningful change. For the reality you wish to save—the reality to which you must return—exists as a result of the Final Days. You cannot reshape the past to undo the tragedies of the present. Cannot unmake the sorrow and suffering fated to come.

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So he's saying even if you want to help, you can't, because if you throw everything off balance by trying to change things, you risk jeopardising the current world we're going back in the past to save in the first place.

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You cannot say it works just like 5.0 because we don't have access to the future of 5.0 as we did with 6.0 when we visited Elpis.

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??? It is the same, we're just G'raha in this scenario. Only we want to preserve our future, whereas G'raha wanted to do the opposite and undo theirs.

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Maybe this time, she was just trying to sunder Zodiark, or the local area, and not the entire world. Maybe this time she didn't want to create reflections. Or does something exist that distinguishes what the other possibilities she was accounting for here?

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Nope, everything had to proceed as it did in our world's past, otherwise we wouldn't exist to be able to battle Meteion. Everything had to happen the way it originally did, including the Sundering, the shards and the Ascians going about their shenanigans with Calamities, for the outcome that she believed the most in to be able to happen.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

We tell her everything, but we can't tell her the exact details of how everything came to pass

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And the entire premise of the this conversation that has spanned needless pages now is that she knowingly committed genocide down the very details. So what you're establishing is that she didn't, which is what I've been saying. She expended her energy on an attack to bring down Zodiark because there was no other choice but to divide his power and conquer. Even if she had clues about the future, her and her followers failed to solve the problem in time as the walkng sequence (which is clearly an abstraction representative of days, weeks, months of interactions between Venat and others) shows us. She didn't really know exactly what the sundering would result in as far as what exact state it would leave humanity in it because how would the WoL tell her all of that? Finally and most importantly, the game doesn't frame her as perfect nor does it frame her solution as unquestionable. You're supposed to question it because who was really right in the conflict-- the group who wanted a tempered future that rendered the earth a false paradise or the group whose solution was to splinter their power in a reckless attack that went far beyond merely weakening humanity? And that's assuming you subscribe to the "we revised history to be one timeline" take, which I don't. But even if you do, the story makes sense and Venat isn't some genocidal maniac. Emet is, Yotsuyu is, Durante is, Zenos is. Venat is not. It's worth noting as well that the game confirms Hydaelyn was summoned exactly the same as Zodiark-- which means she had a heart and other people on her side (most likely a significant number of people).

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

So he's saying even if you want to help, you can't, because if you throw everything off balance by trying to change things, you risk jeopardising the current world we're going back in the past to save in the first place.

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In the very next quote you are saying Graha wanted to undo their future. I'm not how you can reconcile your own interpretation of this statement with what you said there. So, is some magic rule governing our time travel that Graha is not subject to? You're just misintrepreting what's being said. Time travel, in FFXIV, doesn't change reality. The variables can change, but it cannot be meaningful change,the result will be the same. Whether Graha travels back to the First or not, it would've theoretically been Flooded and eventually saved. Whether we travel to Elpis or not, the Final Days are bound to be instigated where they will affect our current reality. That's what he is saying. He's not just saying "you can't help".

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

ope, everything had to proceed as it did in our world's past, otherwise we wouldn't exist to be able to battle Meteion. Everything had to happen the way it originally did, including the Sundering, the shards and the Ascians going about their shenanigans with Calamities, for the outcome that she believed the most in to be able to happen.

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Exactly, I'm glad we agree.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts overall on why the rhetoric about genocide is so bizarre and why the story, even if you believe in a single timeline, actually does make sense. It is believable? Maybe not. That's not what people have been arguing. What actually doesn't make sense, is how the time loop affects the rest of the game prior to EW with respect to Hydaelyn.