What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The barrier wasn’t failing prior to the sundering but it was known to be failing leading up to the events of the game, ignoring that zodiark was going to break free after about 1-2 more rejoining the barrier wouldn’t have lasted 5 more rejoinings anyway

And while I appreciate the video if this isn’t explained clearly in the game itself I more consider that a failure on the games part

I’ll fully admit I’m wrong for arguing from a false premise but im also going from my interpretation of the game itself, I shouldn’t need a lore video to correct common misconceptions about the game because it’s a failure on the game that they are even there

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The barrier was never failing. The only reason it failed at all is because we literally murdered Zodiark. What was failing was Venat's hold on Zodiark. The barrier that he himself put into place was just dandy though. In fact, his power was getting stronger as he became more and more whole. He would have kept his barrier going for a while yet. The problem was that no one but Venat knew what was causing the problem to begin with. The Ascians were fighting for their world, but still had no idea what was attacking them.

Edit: Not the Ascians killing everyone was right either. I would have prefered Venat just tell everyone what was up before we had to head into thousands of years of forced mass sacrifice.

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Originally Posted by Nayukhuut

The barrier was never failing. The only reason it failed at all is because we literally murdered Zodiark. What was failing was Venat's hold on Zodiark. The barrier that he himself put into place was just dandy though. In fact, his power was getting stronger as he became more and more whole. He would have kept his barrier going for a while yet. The problem was that no one but Venat knew what was causing the problem to begin with. The Ascians were fighting for their world, but still had no idea what was attacking them.

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Are you sure, honestly this conversation has made me realise I probably should have gone through the story again before commenting (my bad), but I would have bet money on the fact that somewhere along the way someone said that the song of despair was eating away at zodiarks barrier and even him gaining power back from the rejoining’s wasn’t slowing down the degradation of the barrier

But yes I agree, I probably phrased it badly but from old (wrong) interpretation I never thought venat was good, just kinda the best of a suite of bad alternatives

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Are you sure, honestly this conversation has made me realise I probably should have gone through the story again before commenting (my bad), but I would have bet money on the fact that somewhere along the way someone said that the song of despair was eating away at zodiarks barrier and even him gaining power back from the rejoining’s wasn’t slowing down the degradation of the barrier

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That I will admit I am fuzzy on. It has been a while since I played through. I do know that the barrier was still holding strong by the time we got to him, and had been doing so for thousands of years. Which would have been plenty of time for a race as intelligent and advanced as the Ancients to come up with an actual plan to fix things had they been given actual information.

Beyond that though, since we are technically already a product of what happened and we can't really change our past, I would have been happy enough if the story took a more pragmatic approach to Venat. Something like "well, you broke the world but this is the world we have now and we will fight for it with our dying breaths" would have been much nicer than the "Venat saved everyone and loves us all" narrative we end up getting. My problem, in the end, is less the way the story ended up going (because I love a good tragedy), and more how the story calls out one group for their actions, but calls Venat a hero even though she arguably killed even more people.

Oh yeah that part I totally agree on, the game basically forcing us to pretend that venat did no wrong is problematic regardless of how the story actually panned out

I just started this discussion because like I said since I came in with the interpretation that the barrier didn’t protect the ancients then venat’s actions made more sense than any other alternative presented in a reasonable timeframe of the event, using that idea venat is ultimately good if highly flawed, using the idea that the barrier did protect the ancients then venat goes from “highly flawed but ultimately good” to “arguably worse than those she fought against”

Regardless neither option fits with this “benevolent goddess who can do no wrong” the game tries to force

Aye, and it does stand to reason that, even if it were not for a few of our lifetimes (or perhaps sooner since what you said does ring a bell I can't place), Zodiark's aether and power would have needed replenishing eventually. Especially since Meteion's attacks were relentless. Atrophy sucks. Him as a long term solution was never really a good idea. Especially since he was put there to fix the symptoms of a problem no one knew the answers to. Though installing the Twelve in as a prayer battery to stop the worlds smushing back together is just as awful, honestly. What happens when we stop believing in gods?

The story was sadly a mess. In the end I just hate feeling like a hypocrite. I now feel that, instead of going out and leading by example, I am just parroting ideals I am completely willing to throw to the wall. I hate it. :(

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I just started this discussion because like I said since I came in with the interpretation that the barrier didn’t protect the ancients then venat’s actions made more sense than any other alternative presented in a reasonable timeframe of the event, using that idea venat is ultimately good if highly flawed, using the idea that the barrier did protect the ancients then venat goes from “highly flawed but ultimately good” to “arguably worse than those she fought against”

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What I got from the story is that Meteion would never penetrate the barrier, Emet-Selch did say that Zodiark rewrote the laws of the star, this is information that Meteion isn't privy to, so the angle of attack will never change, meaning the barrier will hold up until Zodiark is eliminated. It's why Fandaniel piloted Zodiark like a mechsuit to attack us, he wanted Zodiark gone so Meteion can get through.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

*snip*

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1 sentence out of that first, suprisingly short post is enough. For you to call others haters it's even less that is needed. Made up quoted text that is.

Mirror, mirror on the wall... (can you guess what comes next?)

That's why i think it's so awful that you said "i wish you all would just cease to exist". That's a terrible thing to say.

/sigh /deepSigh /moreSigh

I'm so done here. There are just some people who will never grow up. They will throw tantrums and open threads out of spite. They see everyone as their enemy and assume everything about others but ignore the clear message they put out. I'm sorry not everyone can be reasonable and engage in actual discussion. Some people just insult you instead of sticking to the topic. In some cases it gets so bad that 99% of the "discussion" with them is you trying to tell them they are insulting and them being insulted by things no one has ever said or even better: you calling them out for their insults. The sad part is that those really difficult people don't see the error in their ways. Everybody else is the bad one. They might have a mental illness.

Not taikin' the bait anymore. Sorry guys, you'll have to find a new punching bag. I'm done with that stupidity. I should have wised up to your collective gaslighting far sooner. Shame on me for not doing so. But now that I have, your bait is inert.
(I'd also suggestion you look at 3, 4, 5, and 6 in your signature, BRVV. They're good points you should actually follow yourself, as you aren't in your replies to me here, especially 6.)

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Originally Posted by Nayukhuut

Edit: Not the Ascians killing everyone was right either. I would have prefered Venat just tell everyone what was up before we had to head into thousands of years of forced mass sacrifice.

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Didn't she make an attempt. She went and talked to them (in the cutscene it's a small crowd, but that's true of all cutscenes due to engine limits, so presumably she was talking to a lot of the remaining survivors at once) and they were like cultists talking about how they would cultivate new life then sacrifice it to Zodiark (genocide; manufactured genocide at that) as many times as it takes to get their old state of living back. And it was clear they weren't interested in any alternative. It made all of that pretty clear that up until then, she was torn on the Sundering and didn't want to do it, but that was what convinced her her people were beyond reason as she tried to actually reason with them.

Unless you mean before Zodiark, though I was thinking the story said some reason for that, though it might have been contrived. But that said, there's no clear indication that would have worked. I'm not sure if the Convocation would have called her insane or taken her seriously, but everything we've seen shows their magic doesn't inherently reach beyond Etherys (that is, to get to Endsinger), or that they would have been able not to lose themselves to her Song and be unable to fight her effectively (similarly to the way the Company of Heroes fought Titan), nor is it clear they would have even tried such a plan in the first place, much less succeeded. On the one hand, we're told Dynamis works differently and would have overwhelmed their power, but on the other hand, Emet and Hyth are able to use it just fine at the end of Ultima Thul, though that could be because they were somehow there through the WoL.

There are a lot more question marks down that path, not a sure thing of a better outcome.

What I took from the story is that when she did go to them, they outright refused to listen because they were basically cultists sold on the idea of regaining all they had without any lasting sacrifice on their part. The implication here is that they would have reacted to her earlier overtures the same way.

And we also know from past lore that they did, since we know from ShB that the Zodiark plan was the first time their society split. Meaning Venat probably DID talk about it then AND they decided to do it anyway. We're not sure what she did and did not reveal, but we know she tried to reach them with reason even then and was rejected.

So there's very little in the lore that evidences that Venat just needed to go to them and explain things and they would have listened. Everything we have in the story suggests the exact opposite.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

1 sentence out of that first, suprisingly short post is enough. For you to call others haters it's even less that is needed. Made up quoted text that is.

Mirror, mirror on the wall... (can you guess what comes next?)

That's why i think it's so awful that you said "i wish you all would just cease to exist". That's a terrible thing to say.

/sigh /deepSigh /moreSigh

I'm so done here. There are just some people who will never grow up. They will throw tantrums and open threads out of spite. They see everyone as their enemy and assume everything about others but ignore the clear message they put out. I'm sorry not everyone can be reasonable and engage in actual discussion. Some people just insult you instead of sticking to the topic. In some cases it gets so bad that 99% of the "discussion" with them is you trying to tell them they are insulting and them being insulted by things no one has ever said or even better: you calling them out for their insults. The sad part is that those really difficult people don't see the error in their ways. Everybody else is the bad one. They might have a mental illness.

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A bit of a tangent here but looking at your signature I think it's extremely embarrassing that a community of grown adults need to have basic rules like those listed for them.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

A bit of a tangent here but looking at your signature I think it's extremely embarrassing that a community of grown adults need to have basic rules like those listed for them.

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Well we don't know how many are adults here. But yes.

It seems like Ren didn't get that i used his own "tactics" if you can call it that after the mirror part. And that post makes him ragequit. Shows how annoying his style of posts is.

Added: all 8 points are things Ren never does. If anything he is a great bad example.