Dark Knight Megathread

The issue with Oblation is it doesn't have enough impact.

Dark Mind is secretly good because 20% is a fair chunk of mitigation, especially for a 60s cooldown, it honestly makes it one of the best skills in high end play for Dark Knight. I get why people who play the class casually hate it, as dungeons dont even really use it, but its a big reason why DRK has been prefered this tier outside of damage output. A rampart 60 seconds is pretty good.

On the other side, 10% mitigation for a 60 second cooldown isn't that good, this is never a mitigation you'll use alone, and if I'm being honest it wont even be good enough to pair it with just one other mitigation. The only time I use this is if Im tanking something that needs 3 pieces of mitigation which is incredibly rare.

Its not useless, its just really underwhelming. Yeah you can put it on an ally in a tight spot, but again, its 10% mitigation and competes with TBN. Its not going to be the difference maker that saves them, while TBN might be. And yeah getting two stacks of Oblation is nice, but its so low impact that I dont ususally ever find myself in a tight spot thinking "Oblation will save me!" so I actually tend to just neglect this skill outside of like...two fights in this game currently.


I'm not really into the idea of bumping it to 15%, I'd much rather see a heal utility or anything else really put onto it as I actually do not believe DRK needs any more raw mitigation. If it was instead a self heal or ally heal skill that offered 10% mitigation as a bonus, it would be pretty good.

Hey yall,

I don't know if these exact changes have already been proposed, but these are just a few potential changes I had in mind to beef up DRK sustain.

I don't claim to be a veteran of the class or the game, but it's the one I've played the most! These are the changes I've wished for in my experience with DRK. I'd love to hear thoughts on how these changes would conflict with other parts of the kit or may be be too good. The numbers are more speculative.

>> Oblation: 10% damage reduction, refunds existing or pre-existing TBN when it is broken if MP is at under 50%; grants hot if broken at or over 50%

(Oblation feels very underwhelming as a capstone mitigation ability/doesn't feel impactful to press/doesn't interact with the kit.)

>> Living Shadow: Same duration but no longer a glorified dot, copies every offensive action and gives you half the benefit.

(This has probably already been proposed but I'm not sure. Is this too similar to the clone on Ninja?)

>> Carve and Spit: Now on the GCD, recovers health if MP is at or over 50%, recovers MP if it is under 50%. Leaves a big bleed; ticks restore HP/MP.

>> Abyssal Drain: Now on the GCD, recovers health if MP is at or over 50%, recovers MP if it is under 50%. Leaves behind the "Salted Earth" AOE; ticks restore HP/MP. Salted Earth combo removed.

(I'm sure some people like the ability, but I find the salted earth combo to be little more than a fire on CD and forget skill. I think ability itself should be removed and it's damage potential distributed to more impactful abilities like Abyssal Drain (preserving the cool animation) and Shadowbringer. As these abilities will be more potent with this change, I think they might deserve a devoted GCD.)

>> Shadowbringer: Adds 50 (maybe 25?) to Blood Gauge.

(Shadowbringer has a longish cooldown, and this change could give the capstone ability some more offensive/defensive potential to justify that; see below.)

>> Bloodspiller and Quietus: Shield for 25% of damage dealt stacking as a non-extendible buff.

(This change would give the DRK some durability when spamming blood spenders, and give Delirium a potentially defensive use case. I'm guessing this might too good, it could maybe give a little DR instead?)

My idea with these proposed changes is to give Dark Knight more sustain without treading into Warrior's identity as the lifesteal/self-healing more reactive tank, giving Dark Knight some more synergy through it's kit and emphasizing MP / TBN management.

One problem I could see is that staying high on MP would be more difficult without the on-demand generation of Carve and Spit; that said, I envision the shared CD abilities providing a large amount of MP when below 50% to compensate.

I'm not sure if/how broken these changes would be, just some thoughts I had. :D

Quote:

---

引用元：ItsUrBoi

I know a lot of tank busters which are physical. In fact I know more which are physical, then magical.

---

Excluding attacks that deal less than 2/3rds of a tank's health when completely unmitigated, and excluding attacks that are almost universally dealt with via invuln, this is the complete list of physical tankbusters in Endwalker endgame content:

P1S: Heavy Hand
DSR: Heavenly Heel, Ascalon's Mightx3

By contrast, the magical tankbusters:

ES EX: Hubris
P2S: Doubled Impact, Coherence
P3S: Heat of Condemnation, Beacons of Asphodelos
P4S: Elegant Evisceration, Nearsight/Farsight, Demigod Double, Heart Stake
DSR: Soul Tether, Dark+Holy Orb, Staggering Breath, Hallowed Plume, Trinityx2, Ahk Morn's Edge


You can go back through Shadowbringers content and you'll find a similar distribution; Stormblood content design is slightly less one-sided, but still tilts heavily toward magical tankbusters. You have to go back to Heavensward to regularly find fights with threatening physical tankbusters, and I don't think it's controversial to say that Heavensward content design and level 60 balance in 6.x don't really have a lot of bearing on the current state of the game.

I love it when the tank buster is physical so I can hold my wonderful short recast 60 sec best mitigation aka Dark Mind and eat the damage instead.


I'm happy to be the chosen one. I'll take any physical damage and keep "my precious" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyPG0qEbJM8&t=170s Dark Mind

Quote:

---

引用元：The_User

I love it when the tank buster is physical so I can hold my wonderful short recast 60 sec best mitigation aka Dark Mind and eat the damage instead.

---

You do have a far shorter recast -- the shortest recast among all tank CDs -- too, no? It works just as well against physical damage.

Sure, we don't talk about how weak it is compared to other short recast tho.



It would have been nice if there are so many tank busters that other short recast can't keep up and only mine can...

Again, I wouldn't mind if DRK had a bit more of a generalized component on Dark Mind if

1. DRK's mitigation were otherwise undertuned,
2. Dark Mind, thereafter, still held its current advantages, and
3. Putting the missing mitigation, or that part thereof, into Dark Mind produced more theme/polish/fun than spending that budget on other skills.

Just throwing extra strength atop an already strong skill just because its strengths are more subtle than others, though, is rarely a good idea.

Quote:

---

引用元：The_User

When a 15s recast mitigation is safe when it's used only 1 time every 60s I know I'm blessed.

---

You know the second boss in Smileton? The one that appears to deal virtually no damage?

You can pop TBN off it nearly on CD. It's just a matter of maximizing the enemies' uptime on you over TBN's duration. (Added benefit to the ilvl caps.)

TBN adds a further learning curve, and you won't always be able to hit it on CD, but if your worry was a physical tankbuster against which DM would do nothing... well, either your concern was unwarranted, or it's going to pop TBN.

Can't say how grateful I'm for having a shortest recast super awesome mitigation that isn't going have any impact on my dps if I take advantage of it short recast.


When a 15s recast mitigation is safe when it is used only 1 time every 60s I know I'm blessed.






Everyday that I don't have to rely on other healing action in the raid because I don't have any never fail to make me proud

Exactly! *More than 1 TBN= start losing dps* is hella safe.... any concern over using more than 1 TBN per 60s is unwarranted!



We such a fool for not appreciate the 15s recast real neat mitigation that gonna cost our dps if we didn't treat it like a once per minute recast mitigation...


This is the next level of genius, how could anyone came up with this mind blow universe shattering level of ability design?

The point to be made here is that when you have a literal 5:1 ratio of magical to physical tankbusters in the game's modern-era content, that is a pretty good indicator that the encounter designers are not throwing darts at the wall to determine damage-typing on tankbusters and leaving DRK to twist in the wind. Any time a tankbuster turns out to be physical, considerations are being made for Dark Mind's type-specificity.

Sometimes that's as simple as tank damage in the fight being so infrequent and weak that every tank has an enormous overabundance of mitigation with or without a tertiary defensive. Sometimes it's because they want to soak up your invuln to make it more difficult for you to use elsewhere. Sometimes it's there to act as a limiter on Dark Mind by forcing you to spend Rampart or Shadow Wall so you have fewer things to stack 60s later.

Ignoring the actual observable, practical reality that Dark Mind is an incredibly effective mitigation tool in content that actually exists, simply because it sticks in your craw that there are hypothetical encounters that do not exist and show no signs of existing anywhere in the foreseeable future, seems... unproductive.

Quote:

---

引用元：The_User

It would have been nice if there are so many tank busters that other short recast can't keep up and only mine can...

---

P3S, P4S, and (especially) DSR all have situations where the shorter cooldown on TBN is a distinct benefit over the 25s options on other tanks.

Focusing on the last phase of DSR specifically, tanks are hit with, effectively, eleven tankbusters over the course of slightly more than 3 minutes: eight pairs of Trinity attacks, each of which are roughly equivalent to a Savage-level tankbuster of 80~90k damage, and three Ahk Morn stacks, which deal Ultimate-level (several hundred thousand HP, unmitigated) damage to both tanks.
TBN, and TBN alone, can catch every Trinity, leaving all of DRK's other mitigation for the Ahk Morn stacks - and with good timing, you can fit a wholly-unnecessary TBN onto the Ahk Morn stacks too. Every other tank A) Has weaker primary mitigation for Ahk Morn, and typically must use their short-mitigation skills there to help survive, and B) Couldn't even hit every Trinity with their short-mitigation skill if they wanted to.

Hell even in p2s you can use tbn to take the coherence teather and itll be up again for the shared tb immediately after

Ah right, I forgot that 2 of 25s mitigations with no dps cost along with a 60s heal that don't care whether the damage is physical or magical is worst than 1 TBN or 2 TBN+dps cost+ a 60s mitigation that only work against magical. How could I forget that only end game matter.

Dark Mind is fine in endgame trials and raids...it ain't fine in dungeons, where Dark Mind is one of the most useless skills there is. I'd rather they remove it and just have Oblation take its place, but buffed to where it's 15% mitigation against everything. At least then DRK would have something other than just Shadow Wall, Rampart, and TBN to use in dungeon pulls.

Dark Mind has definitely come in handy in P3 and P4 so I'd hate to see it go just because it's not useful in dungeons. I'd rather see Oblation get buffed in one way or another and I think DRK would be perfectly fine in dungeons. Dark Mind also gives DRK some flavor as a tank that's better equipped to deal with magic damage, which I think suits its identity.

I generally believe the issue at hand is that the tank with the most double weaving also has to combine a somewhat usefull but useless on its own mitigation which is Oblation, with TBN with Dark Mind to make up for a litttle less then a PLD using Holly Sheltron and Sentinel
Also all tanks can heal themselves. DRK cannot. This has to change since it is a fundamental requirememt for being a tank in our days. Every other tank can, which makes healers automatically more comfy with anything than a DRK and sets a bar for "oh you actually need hand holding, yeah you aren't playing Warrior or Paladin, shame"
Progging through end game such as Savages and Ultimates I have had so many moments when playing this job felt like a hinderance to myself because on every other tank, misplays from healers could be compensated once or twice with the press of a button to heal myself. On DRK you just die and hope the healers adjust. Or you end up using so many TBNs that your 2 minute burst becomes non existent because you have no MP or much less than usual. I don't want the job to be braindead, or promote and endless amount of second chances, but being able to compensate slightly for some mistakes such as a healer pushing Glare instead of a heal is something every other tank can do every now and then, except this lovely job.

Quote:

---

引用元：ItsUrBoi

Also all tanks can heal themselves. DRK cannot. This has to change since it is a fundamental requirememt for being a tank in our days. Every other tank can, which makes healers automatically more comfy with anything than a DRK and sets a bar for "oh you actually need hand holding, yeah you aren't playing Warrior or Paladin, shame"

---

How is that a "fundamental requirement"? Dark Knight is not only easily clearing all content in the game, but has a solid spot in the meta for almost all of it, including a commanding lead in DSR.
I'll tell you right now, it's not (just) down to doing more damage. Groups are not running DRK and going "Man, it's so much harder to heal this Dark Knight, but we absolutely need that extra 300 tank DPS." The damage is a bonus - it's a really nice bonus - but that meta dominance has just as much to do with the fact that Dark Knight has a very strong defensive kit that frequently does things the other tanks cannot.

There's a very coherent vision for what Dark Knight is supposed to be, from a defensive standpoint in raid encounters: It is the sturdiest tank, but the least self-sufficient.

DRK isn't loaded with self-healing; that's true. But what DRK does have is the ability to completely shrug off attacks that deal harsh damage to every other tank. It isn't uncommon to see a situation where both tanks are hit with a tankbuster at the same time, and the DRK's HP bar barely moves, taking 20-30k damage, while the co-tank gets trucked for 60-70k without some major healer assistance. And they can do it more frequently, too.

Is this always a benefit? No, and it shouldn't be!

This is what we should all want out of this game's class design: Different classes within the same role with both advantages and disadvantages compared to other classes in that role. This is a rare case in FFXIV where class design has not been completely homogenized, and where different classes are arriving at similar levels of effectiveness by taking very different routes, in a way that allows room for each class to sometimes shine especially brightly, and sometimes struggle a little bit more than the others.

Three out of four tanks have a significant self-healing component to their defensive kit, and one out of four tanks takes the different approach of simply mitigating harder. We don't need to, and shouldn't want to, see that become four out of four to zero.

Quote:

---

引用元：Crater

How is that a "fundamental requirement"? Dark Knight is not only easily clearing all content in the game, but has a solid spot in the meta for almost all of it, including a commanding lead in DSR.

---

DSR does not equate to casual content. Every other tank is good in both areas, whereas DRK is not, and this needs to change. People should not dread seeing a DRK in dungeons, and people shouldn't dread playing DRK in dungeons. I know people who main DRK in Savage but wouldn't dare touch it in dungeons due to how bad it is there. I also know people who leveled DRK in dungeons and refuse to play it in Savage thinking it's just as bad there BECAUSE of how it felt while leveling.

DRK is comparable to GNB and PLD in dungeon performance (WAR vs any other tank is of course a different story). The whole idea that people "dread" seeing DRK is just leftover remnants of the doomposting DRK got at Endwalker launch from people who haven't bothered to actually update that opinion with actual experience.

Math has been posted here before, there are easily-perusable public logs where you can compare the total effects of healing and mitigation from tank to tank - the idea that DRK is a bad dungeon tank holds absolutely no water, unless you define good and bad such that WAR is the only good dungeon tank and DRK/PLD/GNB are all essentially equally bad.
There was a (weak) case to be made at EW launch that DRK was a little worse than GNB or PLD because Living Dead wasn't really dungeon-friendly, but that's no longer the case.

Quote:

---

引用元：Crater

DRK is comparable to GNB and PLD in dungeon performance (WAR vs any other tank is of course a different story). The whole idea that people "dread" seeing DRK is just leftover remnants of the doomposting DRK got at Endwalker launch from people who haven't bothered to actually update that opinion with actual experience.

Math has been posted here before, there are easily-perusable public logs where you can compare the total effects of healing and mitigation from tank to tank - the idea that DRK is a bad dungeon tank holds absolutely no water, unless you define good and bad such that WAR is the only good dungeon tank and DRK/PLD/GNB are all essentially equally bad.
There was a (weak) case to be made at EW launch that DRK was a little worse than GNB or PLD because Living Dead wasn't really dungeon-friendly, but that's no longer the case.

---

No, DRK is not comparable to GNB or PLD in dungeons. It has one mitigation tool that mitigates nothing most pulls (Dark Mind), it has no equivalent to the regens from Aurora or Holy Shelltron, it has no equivalent to HoC's burst heal, it has no equivalent to the constant healing potency of PLD's attack spells. And do not insult me or anybody else here by bringing up TBN as a comparison, when you know that's a crock of shit. DRK has no healing comparison to GNB or PLD, all it has is a single HP barrier that's easily shreded through, and a now useable (when it once wasn't) invuln. DRK is the worst of the tanks in dungeon pulls, by a WIDE margin.

Quote:

---

引用元：RyuDragnier

No, DRK is not comparable to GNB or PLD in dungeons. It has one mitigation tool that mitigates nothing most pulls (Dark Mind), it has no equivalent to the regens from Aurora or Holy Shelltron, it has no equivalent to HoC's burst heal, it has no equivalent to the constant healing potency of PLD's attack spells. And do not insult me or anybody else here by bringing up TBN as a comparison, when you know that's a crock of shit. DRK has no healing comparison to GNB or PLD, all it has is a single HP barrier that's easily shreded through, and a now useable (when it once wasn't) invuln. DRK is the worst of the tanks in dungeon pulls, by a WIDE margin.

---

Can confirm, which is why I am on DRK in dungeons now (got all the WAR achievements, and my friend swapped from PLD to WAR for raid).

Gotta give healers something to do after all. I will hug oblation begging for it to save me in dungeons (why is this skill so bad, they even advertised before endwalker dropped that we'd be rewarded for timing cooldowns, DRK didn't get that like HoC, Holy sheltron, or bloodwhetting).

Quote:

---

引用元：RyuDragnier

No, DRK is not comparable to GNB or PLD in dungeons. It has one mitigation tool that mitigates nothing most pulls (Dark Mind), it has no equivalent to the regens from Aurora or Holy Shelltron, it has no equivalent to HoC's burst heal, it has no equivalent to the constant healing potency of PLD's attack spells. And do not insult me or anybody else here by bringing up TBN as a comparison, when you know that's a crock of shit. DRK has no healing comparison to GNB or PLD, all it has is a single HP barrier that's easily shreded through, and a now useable (when it once wasn't) invuln. DRK is the worst of the tanks in dungeon pulls, by a WIDE margin.

---

This really isn't true. Throwing a hissyfit and calling simple mathematics a "crock of shit" doesn't change the fact that it is, in fact, simple mathematics.

The average DF-quality dungeon run is basically divided into three sets of two trash pulls; 90s and 120s skills can be used on one pull or the other, 60s skills can be used once per pull.

Across both pulls, excluding skills that are the same on each tank, you tend to get:

6 uses of TBN (3 per pull), for a total of roughly 135,000 HP of mitigation in current gear.
4 uses of HoC (2 per pull), for a total of 60,000 HP of healing and roughly 40,000 HP of mitigation.
4 uses of Holy Sheltron (2 per pull), for a total of roughly 66500 HP of healing and roughly 50,000 HP of mitigation.

2 uses of Abyssal Drain, for at least 50,000 HP of healing, possibly more depending on how many enemies are in each pull.
3 uses of Aurora, for for about 65,000 HP of healing.
16 spell GCDs with a healing component, for about 110,000 HP of healing.

3 uses of Oblation, which tends to total up to about 15,000 HP of mitigation.
1 use of Camouflage, which tends to offer about 20,000 HP of mitigation.


That's 200,000 HP of combined healing and mitigation on DRK, 185,000 HP of combined healing and mitigation on GNB, and 226,500 HP of combined healing and mitigation on PLD.

Now obviously there's some variation here based on how fast the group is going, and we are talking about casual DF runs so fluctuations are expected. If you go a little faster DRK is disadvantaged because you might only get 4 TBNs to 4 HoCs/HSheltrons, but if you go a little faster than that it swings right back around and you can get 4 TBNs to 2 HoCs and 3 HSheltrons; if you go a little slower then GNB can start to pull ahead by squeezing a second use of Camouflage into the second pull. At some timings PLD will be able to get 5 uses of Holy Sheltron into a 2-pull interval, etc.

But in general, that's all nitpicking: This "WIDE margin" you claim exists between DRK and the other tanks is a delusion. DRK and GNB are on pretty equal footing as far as dungeons are concerned, both in terms of DPS and in survivability; PLD is marginally ahead of both in terms of survivability, and behind by a similar amount in terms of DPS.

Quote:

---

引用元：RyuDragnier

No, DRK is not comparable to GNB or PLD in dungeons. It has one mitigation tool that mitigates nothing most pulls (Dark Mind), it has no equivalent to the regens from Aurora or Holy Shelltron, it has no equivalent to HoC's burst heal, it has no equivalent to the constant healing potency of PLD's attack spells. And do not insult me or anybody else here by bringing up TBN as a comparison, when you know that's a crock of shit. DRK has no healing comparison to GNB or PLD, all it has is a single HP barrier that's easily shreded through, and a now useable (when it once wasn't) invuln. DRK is the worst of the tanks in dungeon pulls, by a WIDE margin.

---

I think this is also heavily overestimated. I mean the topic with DRK in dungeons. I run expert roulettes with it and have never had any problems. The Aurora self healing you get is basically a 200 potency heal every 3 seconds. This is not better than TBN. Realistically all it does is it gives you roughly the same amount of HP back over time rather than instantly shielding you for that amount. I am not making a point for TBN being good in dungeons, but Aurora being good? Thats far from reality too. The PLD self healing is also far from reality and was needed and introduced specifically because of this. It is not per target healing like WAR's and rotationally doing the Requiescot rotation gives you as much HP as roughly 2 TBNs. In 60 seconds. I think the more logical argument would be that GNB has a damage reduction tool that works besides the standard kit, while DRK's Dark Mind does not. But you have Oblation as a 10%. And in all honesty, if you use 2 small damage reductions per all the mobs between any two bosses, like rampart and oblation with tbns in between whenever, and then shadow wall with oblation with tbns again, you will be fine with any healer.
The reason I was advokating for Dark Mind to move to Oblation is because there are too many buttons that need pressing, the skills kind of try to fit a similar role ( one fails for being too weak), and it would make space for some healing ability, even if weak to help slightly with self recovery from non existent to being the worst, but there.

Healer love me because my TBN burst in 3s or even less in a big pull. It make healing very easily.


Math and theory say I'm as good as gnb and pld so it is impossible that any DRK could struggling in reality.

It's not like survive dungeon big pull have anything similar to a ROPE PULL.

Instead of using theory why don't you guy get in the dungeon and test how much each attack of the enemy reduce your hp with no mitigation first?

The problem is mitigation vs self healing is huge in dungeons. If you can burst heal yourself and save the healer a GCD or two then that is a dps gain for the party. All tanks have mitigation tools.

You can ask any dungeon healer and they would take a WAR over a DRK in any dungeon setting.

TBN is very strong however the problem occurs after TBN breaks. This could easily be solved if abyssal drain costed mp or was on a charge system. Or if simply gauge spending abilites restored a portion of hp.

I have faith this will be addressed in 6.25

Pretty sure devs are looking at 4 man content balance just enough to where it doesnt affect the 8 man balance whether its through lost actions or general job changes.

If Abyssal Drain was every 30s and was a 300-400 potency heal per target hit, DRK's dungeon pull problems would easily be addressed without it really effecting their raid fight capabilities. And before somebody says "But wouldn't Carve and Spit have to be reduced to 30s as well?", I remind you that ending a DNC's dance changes the GCD to 1.5s until the next move. They could pull something similar with Abyssal Drain and Carve and Spit where CaS is the normal 60s CD while AD changes it to 30s CD.

What you mentioned above me is a change I also mentioned before, both Carve and spit and Abyssal Drain have their cooldown halfed, while also having MP and damage halfed.

If they gave DRK Scourge back or some DoT, I was brainstorming ways to make it a bit more interesting. One was giving a chance to restore some MP every tick, or since you all are talking about AD/CnS, maybe cutting 5-10 seconds off their CD.

TBN is very strong? How strong it is really?



Tank's HP=85000. TBN=25% of max hp barrier=21250


HOC= -15% 8s & extra -15% 4s & if GNB's 900 potency heal is around 15% of their max hp then it would heal around 12750



Assuming a single hit tank buster is designed to KO a tank with no mitigation then it would deal a damage no less than tank's total HP


TBN would leave you with 21250 HP


HOC would leave you with [tank buster damage 85000 - 2 layers of 15% mitigation=first layer>72250>second layer>61412 vs tank hp 85000=23587+heal 12750=]36337 HP.



[If GNB's 900 potency heal is equaling to 24-25% of their hp instead then it would be 23587+21250=44837]



Care to be a guinea pig and test it for us Hayk Farsight? Scuffed Guts? this thread is in dire need of a screen shot and real evidence.

Comparing cooldown to cooldown is somewhat missleading. If you are on GNB and use the 30% mitigation you got, and do the same on DRK and throw Oblation in as well, the numbers tip in DRK's favour.
No one here was trying to say that TBN is better than the new defensive cooldowns, but rather that DRK's whole kit gives you mitigation which is equally as good as the other tanks, if not slightly better, on a shorter cooldown.
Keyword: when you combine abilities. Not when you compare skill to skill, because then what is PLD's equivalent of Dark Mind and Oblation? What is GNB equivalent of those 2? Those are also fair points.

You can forget PLD and their selfless kit



GNB is the right tank to compare with DRK


DRK have Dark Mind and Oblation, GNB have Aurora and Camou


But it hardly make up for the weak TBN. Aurora can target a party member, Dark Mind can't. Camou got 50% longer recast but the duration is twice as long as Oblation, plus parry chance against physical.

While Oblation can target party member and can have 2 stack the effect isn't significant and it is diminish when you stack it on the same target. Aurora on the hand isn't insignificant and I haven't heard of a complaint when stack it on the same target.



Now is there anyone willing to prove and give us a screen shot of the comparison between TBN vs other short recasts? cuzz I feared the claim that TBN is strong will keep coming back again and again.

I just really hope Abyssal drain gets a buff in 6.2

Yeah 200 cure potency just isn't worth putting Carve and Spit on cooldown. Personally I think they should unlink it with Carve and Spit, 30 sec cooldown, make it 400 heal potency and just nerf the damage by a lot ... maybe like 50. Perhaps just remove the damage and make it a heal only.

Or you can make Abyssal Drain an alternate second aoe combo that doesn't restore mp nor blood gauge but restore hp instead


and you can change Dark Mind to something to handle both physical and magical damage so you can always rely on it or make it 90s afterward and give DRK a proper 60s heal. This will improve DRK in raid


Or you could choose the fastest and easiest but laziest way= Make Quietus restore hp but this will not improve DRK in raid




DRK used to have Dark Dance to handle the physical damage but now it has been taken away and upgraded to create GNB's camouflage.


The problem is the people in charge just decided to taken away Dark Dance and leave a hole in DRK defensive kit against physical without even try to fix it.

personally i wish they just swapped Blood spiller and Quietis with AD and CnS
just make Blood spiller and quietis gauge fillers like reaper(w/e those GCDs are called) and let use spam CnS and AD under Delerium

Alright, just gonna weigh in a couple things, though I admit I'm beating a dead horse since they're not new opinions from me:

* Dark Mind is potent, but outside of high-end content it is niche. It needs something to be useful in more casual play.
I've recommended before having it increase the DRK's healing intake, and I still think that's not a bad idea -- both fitting in the theme of the ability, and slightly expanding the use-cases for the skill. There has been concern that DRK doesn't have the self-healing to make such a boost particularly useful to us, but I figure the mitigation is the main draw while the healing boost would just make healers hate us less, and still a helpful boon to our mitigation cycling in wall-to-walls.
I have in the past heard people suggest combining Dark Mind and Oblation (I suppose the idea is 2 charges, targetable, 20% magic mitigation and 10% physical mitigation), which is not a solution I'm personally a fan of and could imbalance it for the cases it's already used for.

* Abyssal Drain really should just replace Flood of Darkness/Shadow.
Flood is just a cheap knockoff of Edge for AoE, and even aesthetically it has little distinction from Shadowbringer now. Plus alternating a Line AoE is tricky to use when your spammable AoEs are PB circles -- something that WAR has already addressed with Overpower.
Simply, Abyssal Drain is a far more practical alternative, being the self-healing tool we desperately need in dungeons and a better fit with the directionality of our AoE. It's also a fair bit more iconic, given that Fray loves spamming it in cutscenes in place of Unmend. Such a replacement would also mean decoupling it from CnS; three birds, one stone.
The only tricky part is the question of what happens to Darkside in AoE (ie should it still be applied by a healing skill), and whether we need a healing alternative in single-target for parity, though I would argue in the latter case that we already have Souleater, and that a multifaceted nature for an AoE tool would mean it won't become completely useless outside of dungeons either or just relegated to "AoE knockoff of Edge". In the former case, they could always pull off something unique like having Stalwart Soul or Unmend apply/refresh Darkside... or just rework Darkside entirely which is probably a more popular solution.

* Oblation just needs to be fused into TBN.
I'm absolutely positive that Oblation is meant to be our version of Aurora given the shared CD and charges, but of all the tanks, we don't need more oGCDs to weave. TBN is already a mitigation effect that can be passed onto a target, so Oblation already shares its niche. Skipping the button and just applying some layer of mitigation that lasts after the barrier is burst would be a massive QoL boon, without even significantly affecting DRK's survivability beyond what it's capable of already.

Quote:

---

引用元：Archwizard

Plus alternating a Line AoE is tricky to use when your spammable AoEs are PB circles -- something that WAR has already addressed with Overpower.

---

This is the only point with which I'm forced to disagree. Dungeon pulling have gotten far less convenient since Warrior traded its cone for a circle with less than two-thirds its range. Flood is easily the handiest and smoothest of all AoEs for grabs and need not miss any mobs even in very large pulls (i.e., distance from the edge of leftmost mob's hit-ring edge to rightmost mob's hit-ring edge). A 5m targeted AoE would be far, far inferior for smooth pulling.

Warrior's Overpower wasn't "addressed" in any positive sense of the word. It was done despite anyone who regularly did dungeon knowing better than to believe it would have a positive influence. One has never needed to regularly reposition to cycle conal and circular AoEs. Those repositioning requirements are likewise modest, more than made up for in their range, between Flood and Unleash/Stalwart.

Quote:

---

引用元：Shurrikhan

This is the only point with which I'm forced to disagree. Dungeon pulling have gotten far less convenient since Warrior traded its cone for a circle with less than two-thirds its range. Flood is easily the handiest and smoothest of all AoEs for grabs and need not miss any mobs even in very large pulls (i.e., distance from the edge of leftmost mob's hit-ring edge to rightmost mob's hit-ring edge). A 5m targeted AoE would be far, far inferior for smooth pulling.

---

And in such a case, I would then argue that we at least have Shadowbringer to make up that deficit if need be. All we need is a new way to get Darkside before an AoE, or for it to be decoupled from it (since that's just a weird limiter).

Not to mention that in my experience, mobs tend to usually group up in either clusters, small arcs or perpendicular lines to the path of movement, which isn't often convenient for using lines to pull. It's usually after you have a mob train going that lines become convenient to maintain threat.

A cone, perhaps, would be superior -- and I fully understand the frustation WARs felt about losing that -- but I also understand the devs' position of making your spammable AoE tools consistent in shape so that you don't have to constantly reposition mobs between casts, which was a simultaneous frustration of playing WAR when a mob would sometimes decluster off to the side, or your central target died and your new target would only let you hit half the pack unless you slid into a new angle. I used Overpower as an example not because I think it's the ideal direction, but because I know that's a position the devs have already taken and that DRK creates an inconsistency with said position with its even narrower line AoEs.

The ideal direction would be to allow for a niche tool of a unique shape for opening and pulling, but maintain a consistent shape for your spammable attacks. For instance, if Overpower had been used to apply the 10% buff at a lower potency but a longer range, while Mythril Tempest was de-comboed but allowed for a consistent AoE circle at a higher potency.
What might be a point of contention here is that I consider the MP-based oGCDs a part of the spammable AoE portion.

Dark Mind increase healing received wouldn't remind anyone of ToB of course. Might as well increase recast timer to 90s so they can have a similarity even more..


But congratulations if Dark Mind really changed.

Quote:

---

引用元：Archwizard

And in such a case, I would then argue that we at least have Shadowbringer to make up that deficit if need be.

---

Except, the one is used a handful of times per minute, the other... just twice per two. And you certainly won't want to waste that CD on less than full pack, which means it's not about to be used for initial grabs.

Generally, it's better to have the tool that is better for add grabs to be available often enough to deal with add grabs. The other can be the CD too long for such purposes.

For that reason, if trimming one button would cost us that functionality, I'd rather not. I'd rather just see Abyssal be buffed and (alongside CnS) given a second charge.

Quote:

---

Not to mention that in my experience, mobs tend to usually group up in either clusters, small arcs or perpendicular lines to the path of movement, which isn't often convenient for using lines to pull.

---

Take just the first Opo-opo pull in the new dungeon, for instance. On any other tank, I have to wait around a bit to catch all. On DRK, I just voke the first the moment it's in range, sweep slightly towards one end or the other while targeting the opposite side and, without pausing, I can hit all of them.

All the better for it being oGCD, as I can circular two, if necessary, while still reaching the rest in that same moment even if the furthest is some 10y away and, say, the other mob is more than 5y distant from the farthest.

Quote:

---

but I also understand the devs' position of making your spammable AoE tools consistent in shape so that you don't have to constantly reposition mobs between casts

---

That's the point, though. Outside of the rarest of pulls, and only if you positioned the largest mobs in the center (thereby increasing the pack's diameter / maximum distance between any two mob's hit-ring edges), you did not have to do that. You could remain in place and still hit everything. You could dodge AoEs with little to no retargeting and still hit everything.

Dipping in and out has only been necessary for Samurai when the tank is moving, to reduce the risk of lost coverage over one's Tenka cast time.

Quote:

---

but because I know that's a position the devs have already taken and that DRK creates an inconsistency with said position with its even narrower line AoEs.

---

Homogeneity of AoE shapes, both across jobs and each kit itself, is itself the recent deviation from trends. Every original job had multiple AoE shapes. Heavensward merely added on to their dominant/iconic shape without removing the other. Likewise, until Shadowbringer, each tank had a different variety of those shapes. DRK had self-circles and target-circles (later replaced primarily by line AoEs). WAR had circles and cones. PLD had only self-circles.

Quote:

---

The ideal direction would be to allow for a niche tool of a unique shape for opening and pulling, but maintain a consistent shape for your spammable attacks.

---

You don't even need that so much as to keep the original affordances. The extra range is useless outside of the pull and isn't remotely powerful enough to be consider nerfing a given job's overall AoE damage for.

Just use hybrid shape on Abyssal (thick line until target, then a circular therefrom, hitting each enemy therein still only once) and we'd be golden. Or, just give Edge falloff damage and have its sword arc continue onward as a lengthy, 60-degree cone or thick line or so, such that one can still conveniently tag mobs. So long as we aren't giving up something unique to DRK, we're fine.

That said, I'd still prefer for Abyssal to have its potency buffed and be given (alongside CnS) a second charge, more so than to make it spammable. I'd honestly rather see WAR's AoE sustain curtailed, as I think that's likely to create a balancing hell if Variant Dungeons want to take themselves at all seriously, than to simply see DRK brought close / to second place. Moreover, it'd better mimic the cost and power of the original DA-AD, now that we don't have any Stormblood-era Blood Weapon-Quietus cheese available to us.