What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

(Post was too long, have to be split in two)

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Her actions never receive the same scrutiny as those of the Ascians, which is part of the problem. [/I]

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And this is almost my entire gripe with her character.

I find it funny when people keep bringing up "how about the Ascians?!", they do realize the Ascians are the villains in the story right? That we (WoL) fought with everything we had to stop them. And if it's their opinion that Venat is even slightly similar to the Ascians, why are they fighting so hard when people just ask for Venat to be GIVEN SIMILAR TREATMENT TO ASCIANS? You don't even need to treat her as a villain. Just don't treat her as this 100% benevolent goddess that has done no wrong. Is that too much to ask for?

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Originally Posted by Consurgens

These are my personal grievances with the story. Emphasis on "personal" since I understand why some people would enjoy it and I recognize the appeal, but it just didn't resonate well with me:
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And I want to frame this whole post and hang it on my wall.

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Originally Posted by ArcturusWhisper

Back in Shadowbringer, I was exactly those that want to stick game texts to the screen of those who couldn't stop gushing about how "perfect" the Ancient society was, so that they can properly read them. And yet here I am, despairing at people's ability to be consistent. Regardless of how "imperfect" that society was, regardless of what flaws they had, declaring that they deserved to be wiped out by one woman flies in the face of the morals of Shadowbringer.

5.0： No matter how imperfect, or flawed, people deserve to live.
6.0: lol nope, this particular group deserved to be wiped out for their flaws.

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Indeed, Ancient society in ShB did seem less perfect than it did in EW, if you talked to the NPCs in Amaurot. The instance when our party is mistaken for children and warned that it would be best to don robes as they were probably being watched was particularly chilling.
Yet, there was no further development of this idea and Venat removing her mask in the EW short story is clearly not treated as a major infraction.

Had we been presented with a society where every action was watched and deviation from the norm had dire consequences, it might have been easier to accept Venat's actions. Instead the EW story presents us with a society closely resembling our own, only in some respects better. E.g. Hermes' rejection of society's norms is met with attempts at understanding and does not prevent him being promoted to the highest office.


My feelings about EW have made me look at the rest of the story and see that many of the flaws have been present from the start.

There has always been a tendency to tell rather than show.
E.g. We are told Minfillia does important work, but most of the time she's seen in her office alone doing nothing.
We are told Tartaru prevented undesireables from joining the scions, but we never see her doing that, she simply checks your name is on the list and lets you in.
We are told Lyse is the best person to lead the Resistance, but we never see her doing much to justify this.

Pacing has often been off.
The Loporits getting so much attention is the latest example, but the pre-HW quests dragged painfully and the return to Uldah in HW, felt like a very unwelcome interruption to an exciting MSQ.

Fake deaths have been overused from HW onwards. And Scion plot-armour means we're probably stuck with them forever (can't sell as much merchandise if you kill them). I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they tried to revive Emet Selch at this point!

So, I'm not expecting anything better from this writing team in the future. The story is pretty good for an MMO, and there have been flashes of brilliance now and then, but overall I wouldn't say it's great literature. After ShB, I was expecting so much more from this story and for me, it totally failed to deliver.

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Originally Posted by Solarra

Indeed, Ancient society in ShB did seem less perfect than it did in EW, if you talked to the NPCs in Amaurot. The instance when our party is mistaken for children and warned that it would be best to don robes as they were probably being watched was particularly chilling.

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That was another case of...strange translation because it's worded much more mildly in the other languages and more along the lines of "people will think you're weird if you don't wear robes".

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Originally Posted by Solarra

Indeed, Ancient society in ShB did seem less perfect than it did in EW, if you talked to the NPCs in Amaurot. The instance when our party is mistaken for children and warned that it would be best to don robes as they were probably being watched was particularly chilling.
Yet, there was no further development of this idea and Venat removing her mask in the EW short story is clearly not treated as a major infraction.

Had we been presented with a society where every action was watched and deviation from the norm had dire consequences, it might have been easier to accept Venat's actions. Instead the EW story presents us with a society closely resembling our own, only in some respects better. E.g. Hermes' rejection of society's norms is met with attempts at understanding and does not prevent him being promoted to the highest office.

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Exactly. Some finer details of that society are chilling, and it is quite obvious that Emet-Selch doesn't see those because 1) it's his cherished society and 2) he's in his grief and obsession for 12000 years, which made for a rather compelling story. But even if they have continued with that aspect, I think I will still take issue with Venat basically hiding critical information from that society, instead of working to better it. Her decision would certainly be more palatable, but not by much in my view. Let's just take, for example, Eulmore. That's basically a degenerate and depraved society with very few redeeming qualities, but I would take issue if the protagonists' solution to make this society better is to just erase them and make a better society out of beings that arise from their ashes. That's different than if the protagonists have no choice but to wipe Eulmore out in say, an existential battle. But "wiping out a society in order to make it better" is just...nuts in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Solarra

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they tried to revive Emet Selch at this point!

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This is very much a possibility, though I pray so hard that they won't. It would just destroy his character. Let him rest in peace!

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

That was another case of...strange translation because it's worded much more mildly in the other languages and more along the lines of "people will think you're weird if you don't wear robes".

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That's interesting! But I still think the ancient society in ShB has its clearly "imperfect" implications, even if not as chilling as the translation made it out to be. But regardless, as I said in my previous post, it's immaterial. Even if the ancients have even bigger flaws, it would still be nuts to do what Venat did to them. The entire premise of Shadowbringer is that "better" beings don't get to decide who deserves to live; and continued "existence" in a completely different form, with their memories and history and civilisation completely destroyed, is not something people would desire.

Imagine going from Emet to Hawkgirl, pathetic.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

This is why I've been worried about Azem being retconned. Also, as much as I like Elidibus, it's a bit odd to be developing this relationship with him now. I know they have the convenience of his failing memories to fall back on, but in ShB there's little indication Elidibus and Azem (or the WoL) were close outside of that one scene where we inadvertently 'call' him. I have seen a theory that his speech preceding the Seat of Sacrifice was about Azem when he says, "This I swore to...to someone." Seems unlikely though given the context.

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YEAH! I completely forgot my gripe regarding how they go about fleshing out Elidibus. It IS odd to basically shoehorn him into the role of "Azem fanboy" this late in the game. I know that ShB short story basically established a foundation for this fanboyism, but it wasn't exactly at this level. In the short story, he looks up to the whole Convocation, not just Azem, and the way this "looking up to" was portrayed much more naturally.

I'd much rather they flesh out the Ascians by telling their stories.

It's like the screenwriters are one-trick ponies and couldn't portray a sympathetic villain without tying them closely to our previous life. It worked with Emet-Selch, and that's great. But it's getting tiring if it keeps being repeated. They could easily build Elidibus's story around the whole of Convocation and his duty. With Emet-Selch being an already sympathetic Ascian, people would be interested. It wouldn't be easy, because they don't seem to have the best of relationship after 12000 years of getting on each other's nerves, but that in itself would have been an interesting aspect to explore.

But NOOOO, it must be us. It always must be us. lol.

Seriously, characters don't need to always be simping for us to be sympathetic. It's just extremely lazy writing. I am so disappointed with how they handle Elidibus, as much as I enjoy Themis in many ways.

(I am reading over the thread slowly and I feel like in the next few days you guys are going to see so many of my posts, I apologize in advance.)

[Edit] I forgot to add, I find in the short story, where Emet asks Elidibus whether he wants to access his memory crystal a very well-written scene with both of them. So sad such a compelling aspect of their story is relegated to short stories that most players won't even see.

Yeah, on that note, we could stand to have less WoL simping in general. We don't need to be reminded every other cutscene that we're the most epic bestest hero ever that has it so hard but is so valiant and virtuous. Like, we know that already. We're the one toiling to save the country, world, continent, everything.

And yeah, the lodestone shorts are usually pretty dang good. A lot of people do read them, and a lot of folks also believe these should be in the game in some form. I've always kind of hated any time media has outside the base material that tells a better story than the base material. Got a better representation of the Sundering in a Nier game recent-ish.

I hope you're still reading through the thread. There's some real gem posts in here.

Man, did we get april fooled, or did Arcturus just forget about this thread?

Hah, *sigh*

Since the free login campaign has granted me forum access again, I suppose it's as good a time as any to wipe the dust off of this thread and post my thoughts. First things first, I think it's actually pretty telling that anyone who doesn't log in for two weeks isn't able to leave any feedback related to the game. It's an odd design decision that skews things towards the 'ever present' players.

That aside, there's still no solid idea as to where exactly the story is building up towards for 7.0, though I stand by my earlier statements regarding the need for actual lasting consequences for the main cast. I think it'll be pretty worthy of an eyeroll if Golbez proves to be yet another antagonist who fails to accomplish any meaningful on screen kills. I highly suspect that the development team are banking on the nostalgia of a cool and flashy fight with memorable music to buy time until the new expansion arrives.

Supposedly some form of 'great change' is coming, though the existing trend has made any consequences indirectly work out in favour of the protagonists - such as Garlemald being destroyed, the Ancients being subjected to Venat's reprehensible actions and even the 'corruption' of the Lightwardens.