Because a tunnel vision healer will suffer all the same consequence that a tunnel vision tank or DPS would, and more. And like I said, it's the only role where a DPS rotation run counter to the role. It's simply a matter of risk assessment, a Healer's DPS rotation is like someone driving a bus full of passenger and texting. A tank's DPS rotation is like crossing a street while texting, and DPS rotation is like walking on the sidewalk and texting.Quote:
Originally Posted by MintnHoney
Yes there are reasons, and they are very GOOD reasons too. Out of the 3 roles, a DPS rotation run directly into the flow of 2, and run counter to the flow of the third ... I'll let you work out which is which.
Strange, we actually agree on this one, because that's exactly how I see most of your argument as well. Can we consider it even?Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
Healers need an overhaul
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06-19-2022, 07:33 AMRaven2014
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06-19-2022, 07:56 AMNizzi
"Tanks NEED more than 1 DPS button because it's like, our identity! It's tied to our job fantasy and what we do! We need more than one button to generate threat because that's what tanks do! This is why Paladin needs its bloated magic DPS phase! Seriously, we NEED this! IT'S NOT COMPARABLE AT ALL STOP POINTING OUT IT'S LITERALLY THE SAME THING! WE NEED MORE THAN ONE BUTTON FOR THREAT!"
"No, actually healers don't need their DPS buttons back because identity doesn't matter for you. Your fairy and DoTs tied to your job quests and lore? You don't need that, that doesn't matter. That'd be like crashing a schoolbus full of kids if you had those DoTs and Selene back! It doesn't matter for AST with its cards and time magic! Or WHM either with it's element based spells! IT'S NOT COMPARABLE AT ALL!!!"
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06-19-2022, 07:57 AMpikalovrso instead of it being 8/4 people working together to drive the bus. only the 2/1 healers are the ones accountable for driving the bus and as such should get punished cause the other 6/3 people are being lazy or being bad at their jobs? you starting to see how this makes no sense? this is a TEAM game a single role shouldn't be punished so the other roles can have fun and not have to worry. we are not the teams babysitters. we reserve the right to let you die if you keep getting hit by multiple AOEs even after being explained how to avoid it. we aren't here to cover for every little mistake the other roles make. as a tank if i don't DR and die to a TB or auto attacks thats on me amd if the healer didn't heal me that means it's on BOTH of us not just the healer and not just on me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven2014
or if i see that a DPS or other healer died and the healer is rezzing them. i'll pop secondary mits or invuln so they can rez without worry. it's a GROUP effort at the end of the day. if you want to put all the pressure on healers sure thats fine for you but don't complain when the people who can handle the pressure get bored quickly from it being the only thing they have to do. and in a decent group there really isn't even any pressure on healers anyways.
i've said it once and i'll say it again every job should be built around all skill levels. if you need horrendous/bad players to get use and enjoyment out of your kit. it's a badly designed system/kit. we have skill floors and skill ceilings for a reason. the amount of on demand heals we have now has made the floor more than accessible for people who just want to heal now it's time to raise the ceiling a bit -
06-19-2022, 08:02 AMSilver-StriderA Tank can die if they don't pop a CD on a Tank buster because they tunneled on their rotation and can be more than enough for a snowball effect towards an inevitable wipe. How often does a mechanic end up killing both tanks in an 8 man and are unable to get up and reestablish aggro again before the party dies? How many Alliance Raids have the MT die and the 2 other Tanks do NOTHING about the boss killing half the raid while the MT is being rezzed? This is the type of BS I'm talking about when it comes to double standards. Tanks can screw up royally and no one bats an eye but a Healer screws up and it's the end of the world. I have yet to see a single argument that is actually a healer exclusive issue that warrants the mistreatment Healers have gotten over the years because there simply isn't one. It's always the same 2-3 arguments about how the healer didn't heal because they were casting Glare, while completely ignoring the Asylum that was up and they were outside of it or where out of range of being healed by Assize, or that the healer had to prioritize the Tank because they also got hit, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven2014
I've heard the excuses a million times already and I'm sick of it. -
06-19-2022, 08:08 AMWaxSwThis is a wrong as it can get, firstly dealing damage does not go counter to the role but the opposite. The end goal of healing is to preserve the life of an individual and this is not only taking care of the damage said individual has but also making sure of the elimination of the threat, an action that doesn't or can't fulfil that end goal is generally refered as an incomplete treatment and only resorted to when nothing else is available, so no, dealing damage to threats is part of the healing too or in other words "dps is just healing future damage"Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven2014
A tunnel vission tank or a dps can wipe the party as easily in the high end content because the mechanics that happen there and how lax the healing checks are and in normal mode other roles have so much self sustain that healers dying is not the biggest of deals, let alone how there are jobs capable of resurrection, with the way the game has evolved there is no reason to keep healers as simplistic other than being "baby's first mmo job"
Ingame there is also a core point why healer's dps is so important: HP is binary, any point of HP past the strictly needed to survive may as well not be there and as such healing has a cap of usefulness while damage is there as something always useful
This means that healers will deal damage because healing always is not optimal, the endgame of healers will revolve around getting as close to that usefulness cap as possible while designating as much time as possible to damage as it doesn't have a cap and the easier the content and stronger the tools the more present damage dealing will be, as such designing an oversimplified dps rotation only leads to more stagnant and repetitive gameplay in the easier and more common content and the better player becomes, the opposite of what good design is. -
06-19-2022, 08:19 AMMintnHoneyAll tunnel visioning leads to the same result, for every role, but the severity varies based on the content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven2014
If that is the case, then it's because it was designed to be that way. It doesn't have to be designed to be that way.Quote:
And like I said, it's the only role where a DPS rotation run counter to the role.
What, that a player might end up making a mistake and or be a bad player, thereby potentially making something more difficult?Quote:
It's simply a matter of risk assessment
Again, things that, to you, Tanks and DPS are just allowed to be: problems. But healers? Nope, not allowed. Can't have anyone be learning to do better, can't have anyone deviating from being a Sylphie or else the DPS and Tanks might be mildly inconvenienced for not being allowed to be bad themselves.
Must babysit, must keep things fun for the others. Be strong Clarence. Do it for mother.
From where I'm standing, your reasons are inconsequential and fail to take in the account any sort of nuance for learning, at the very least, but for other reasons as well. I'll let you figure those out on your own, since you should be able to follow the breadcrumbs to get there.Quote:
Yes there are reasons, and they are very GOOD reasons too.
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06-19-2022, 08:25 AMSemirhageThank god Yoshida sees that we could possibly be distracted if we have more to do than Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare in all content, all the time. I'm so stupid that I couldn't possibly pay attention to anything more complex than 111111111111111 for 90% of an encounter. If I slip up for even half a second in this riveting gameplay, a DPS or a tank might possibly have a slightly less fun time, and we ALL know whose good time is the only important metric in the room. Back to the healer pit with us, 1111111111 is real good game design and we WILL like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven2014
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06-19-2022, 08:27 AMpikalovr
so now my question is what his alts name? if you look him up on lodestone he only has level 50 jobs and conjuror up to 15 (probably just so he could crosspath into PLD) so either tell us your alt or you have no idea what you're talking bout my guy
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06-19-2022, 08:38 AMRaven2014Funny you said that, seeing how current design trend in the last 7-8 years of the game actually in line with my reasoning and run completely opposite to yours ... so whose opinion you think are inconsequential? If mine is, than what should we call yours? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by MintnHoney
I'll tell you what I don't miss. I don't miss the constant bickering and party breakup over enmity when tank dancing was a thing. I don't miss the day where I had to constantly worry about what my co-healer doing. You know, I main an AST these days, and I don't even mind having WHM as a co whenever I'm on SGE. Despite their meme status of glare mage or the blood lily meme, they are far better the era of "stone mage" when healer DPS was more ... interesting according to some of you.
If you want to argue those days were more interesting, sure I can give you that. But I'm not sure if they were more fun dealing with all the shenanigans back then, the class may not be as "interesting", but PF experience these days are mile better than it was 2 expansion ago, and for me, that's more fun. As for how we get here, well, I already state my inconsequential take on it. :P
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Originally Posted by Semirhage
Well, you know life is never about getting what you want just because you screaming for it from the top of your lung. Often time your behavior is observed, and life will give you what you "deserved", whether you like it or not. And of course, the "you, we, our" here are used in the context of an MMO. Maybe all of my reason sounds nonsense to you because it doesn't apply to you ... fair. But hey, if they applies to the majority of players ... than guess what, that's all that matter.
That's why I have been using the word "community" in my post. The current status of healer may not be what the community want, but given pass behavior and performance, it is no less than what the community deserve.
And I honestly don't think it will change unless the meta mentality of the community change. -
06-19-2022, 08:48 AMMintnHoneyDoes it? It doesn't completely negate the existence of damage dealing; a rotation still exists, albeit a mind-numbing one which behaves as a sort of behavioral trap to keep people tunneling, the very thing you're so worried about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven2014
Yours, still. Particularly in the case you're trying to make, because, without you and your opinion, apparently things would be as they are now anyway, so...Quote:
... so whose opinion you think are inconsequential?
The opposition, I suppose. ;)Quote:
If mine is, than what should we call yours? :)
You're right, it's better now that everyone passive-aggressively just leaves the party and everyone leaves in absolute silence because of private thoughts.Quote:
I'll tell you what I don't miss. I don't miss the constant bickering and party breakup over enmity when tank dancing was a thing.
You know what, the good news is that you never really had to if you were a good enough healer.Quote:
I don't miss the day where I had to constantly worry about what my co-healer doing.
Indeed, Grandpa Renathras, tell us more about what you "remember" and how horrible those times were, and why they're better now, even though all of the problems you're probably going to cite are still around because the game doesn't teach anyone how to be a better healer and has, in fact, made things worse by allowing them to be as bad as they want to be since criticism is vaguely punishable now.Quote:
You know, I main an AST these days, and I don't even mind having WHM as a co whenever I'm on SGE. Despite their meme status of glare mage or the blood lily meme, they are far better the era of "stone mage" when healer DPS was more ... interesting according to some of you.