Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Problem with that is the concept of "fun" is extremely subjective, which is why many of us focus on "engagement". We just want something to do that isn't boring when there's no healing to be done.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I agree, and I think that "engagement" is a more objective way of framing it. And thankfully there are other people in this thread who seem to also be following that line of argument.

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I have to disagree.

"Engagement" easily allows for bloated or shallow "Hit the shining button!" "Do your dance!" "Fill the bars!" "Follow your CD schedules!" (with nothing else to do between) "gameplay" to be taken as sufficeint just because it has you doing something, regardless of how dull that something may be.

Healers at present have plenty of buttons 'to press' and any good healer will have 100% uptime, never lacking something (singular though it may often be) to do. Under an "engagement" metric, it gets far harder to point out why that'd be insufficient.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I have to disagree.

"Engagement" easily allows for bloated or shallow "Hit the shining button!" "Do your dance!" "Fill the bars!" "Follow your CD schedules!" (with nothing else to do between) "gameplay" to be taken as sufficeint just because it has you doing something, regardless of how dull that something may be.

Healers at present have plenty of buttons 'to press' and any good healer will have 100% uptime, never lacking something (singular though it may often be) to do. Under an "engagement" metric, it gets far harder to point out why that'd be insufficient.

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I think we are specifically talking about "fun engagement," or trying to quantify "fun". "Engagement" definitely gets closer to the heart of the thing because it can also entail *mental* engagement.

And again that's not really speaking to complexity: it's just...are people *wanting* to engage with the what they are doing?

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I think we are specifically talking about "fun engagement," or trying to quantify "fun". "Engagement" definitely gets closer to the heart of the thing because it can also entail *mental* engagement.

And again that's not really speaking to complexity: it's just...are people *wanting* to engage with the what they are doing?

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Check this out, you may find, for example- some parts interesting - like page 3 at the bottom http://digra.org/wp-content/uploads/...1307.06025.pdf

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Check this out, you may find, for example- some parts interesting - like page 3 at the bottom http://digra.org/wp-content/uploads/...1307.06025.pdf

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Ooooooo literature. Om nom nom.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I have to disagree.

"Engagement" easily allows for bloated or shallow "Hit the shining button!" "Do your dance!" "Fill the bars!" "Follow your CD schedules!" (with nothing else to do between) "gameplay" to be taken as sufficeint just because it has you doing something, regardless of how dull that something may be.

Healers at present have plenty of buttons 'to press' and any good healer will have 100% uptime, never lacking something (singular though it may often be) to do. Under an "engagement" metric, it gets far harder to point out why that'd be insufficient.

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Some engagement could be fulfilled if they tweaked things:

Fae gauge acting with more abilities.

Lilies acting with more abilities and generating blood lilies more often

Synastry + Horoscope interacting with oGCDs

Pepsis being more than what it is. E.Diagnosis interacting with oGCDs.

...Accutally forcing healing archetypes onto healers (WHM burst healer, AST regen etc)

Old cards were engaging. We now have AOE Balance (Divination) so... gib back pls?

Basically, having our healing kits work together instead of being so disjointed one offs. It could also reduce button bloat!

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Some engagement could be fulfilled if they tweaked things:

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While I agree generally, we can't merely point in a particular direction and expect a net improvement. Let's take some of your suggestions as example:

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Fae Gauge acting with more abilities.

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At present, the Fae Gauge (like many), is essentially just a way to give a particular ability [A] (granular) charges and [B] begin combat with that ability on cooldown. I can certainly see why that sounds a poor use of a UI element (even while many will be put off by, say, abilities which granularly charge up to a given maximum effect or duration rather than being available only after having fully cooled).

However, consider the function of a broader gauge. A more broadly used gauge, unless UI bloat, attempts to increase conflict between skills. Using A means not being able to use B.

This usually pans out in either of two ways: (1) Situational constraints then determine which of multiple skills --each on, in effect, a shared charge system-- ought be used, giving us the likes of "Use A for 2+ targets; else, B"... or (2) you essentially do exactly what you would have done before, but with a small added degree of trap (using a filler skill when you could and should have instead used a stronger one), and you have a prettier UI element in place of shared ICDs.

That's not to say that gauges are inherently without value; I rather like Kenki, for instance, though I did prefer when it enticed tighter management. They are, however, only a very small addition that has as much chance to go poorly (by reducing the diversity of buttons we actually hit, due to shared resources costs leaving previously "free" abilities now mostly unused) as to go well (by increasing cognitive engagement).

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Lilies acting with more abilities and generating blood lilies more often

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To a point, that'd be great. I think many MCH players, though, could point out where those returns obviously diminish, making the entire mechanic (Hypercharge, in their case) seem as much an annoyance as an enjoyable feature. Stormblood DRKs could (and did) say likewise in regard to Dark Arts at that time.

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Synastry + Horoscope interacting with oGCDs

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A scalar (multiplicative) oGCD interacting with potency (flat-value) oGCDs (as with any duration-ed damage buff ever) tends to constrain those potency skills to/around the scalars.

Because healing requirements now are so low that such might result in overhealing anyways, that might not be an issue at present, but if we got what we want also in terms of healing itself being more engaging, that could rapidly worsen the feeling of gameplay as so many skills end up saved only to be used in prescribed bursts for greater total healing over time (with the lulls between those oGCD bursts being taken up by GCDs in a sort of lopsided feast-or-famine bounce between using and banking abilities).

At the end of the day, such comes down to whether you prefer having to time skills A, B, and C, around skill D's empowerment, rather than A, B, C, and D each being useful in their own right. In a DPS kit, I'd say that yes, that's a good thing. But on a healer, I'm not convinced. I was glad to see the likes of Largesse not affect oGCD heals. (Defiance lacking any benefit for oGCD heals, and thus getting relatively less eHP from ability-based healing than any other tank stance, was a separate and obvious issue.)

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...Accutally forcing healing archetypes onto healers (WHM burst healer, AST regen etc)

Old cards were engaging. We now have AOE Balance (Divination) so... gib back pls?

Basically, having our healing kits work together instead of being so disjointed one offs. It could also reduce button bloat!

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On these, 100% agreed.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Job homogenization is not going away. I think that is something people need to come to terms with. And if it does in any way change, it will be for the worst, i.e. the only differentiation will be to make some jobs even easier for newer players.

If we are going to argue on any front, it can't really be from any sort of ideology of introducing job complexity. The game has long abandoned that for healers. Instead, arguments observing a lack of fun are more likely to resonate with the devs.

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Fix Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare without introducing what the devs call "complexity". I can tell you that I personally still wouldn't consider it acceptable if they just made lilies show up faster or whatever "fix" they'd perform without introducing any complexity. Because complexity on WHM as it currently stands is asymptotically zero. There's nowhere to go but up.

Current healer stupidification is intentional, like it or not. But I'm the local street preacher waving my sign about this. I don't *care* that Square has held its breath and kicked its feet and stated that they're never ever ever ever ever ever ever going to undo homogenization, and that we should just get over it.

It's bad game design. No matter how emphatically they try to tell us that garbage is gourmet. And I'm not going to salt and pepper rotten meat and pretend like I could maybe grow to enjoy it if I meet them halfway. I'm playing DPS for a reason. Because healer gameplay is, for me, flat out unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Job homogenization is not going away. I think that is something people need to come to terms with.

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They really shouldn't. If people see that as job design being changed for the worse, they should feel free to note that they're not okay with it for as long as... they're not okay with it.

"We're being starved out, so we should just get used to starvation," has never been helpful advice. The state we're in now is no more permanent than the better states from which we fell to this.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I think we are specifically talking about "fun engagement," or trying to quantify "fun". "Engagement" definitely gets closer to the heart of the thing because it can also entail *mental* engagement.

And again that's not really speaking to complexity: it's just...are people *wanting* to engage with the what they are doing?

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The thing with Fun or Engagement is that often the determining factor is what you get out of it in relation to what you invest into it..

This doesnt have to be materialistic or tangible in anyway, just something that offers some value to the individual..

Even the most basic convertsation with 2 people can be used as an example.. if your asking someone questions and all you get back are short 1 or 2 word answers then it's far from a fun or engaging conversation. It'd honestly be considered hard work by a lot of people or a waste of time..

However if that person answers your questions with details or insights or other information, then that conversation suddenly becomes a lot more fun and engaging to have. There's a sense of value in it, even if just a better understanding or friendsihip with the person you are talking to.

Combat in FFXIV is much the same thing... This button mashing combat system isnt exactly fun or engaging for a lot of people because a pretty common complaint is most of the buttons you press are uninteresting or dont do anything. They exist for no purpose other than to keep the player busy.. and for that reason they're just not engaging or fun..

To take things to a slightly extreme level. Lets say you have the choice:

You can have 10 different skills that all do 1,000 damage and can press 1 of those skills every second. or,
You can have 1 skill that does 10,000 damage but you can only press it once in 10 seconds..

Which would be more engaging or rewarding?.
I personally would lean towards the second one because while it'd be super slow, seeing a big chunk of a bosses hp drop off when I press that button would feel more satisfying and rewarding because something actually happened instead of mashing 10 buttons and barely seeing the boss hp bar move at all. It leaves you with a feeling of "are my button presses doing anything???" which leads to an opinion I've had for a while that ffxiv combat is little more than pressing buttons to add some flashes and sparkles to what feels like auto attacks..

Jobs themselves dont help with this.. Warriors for example how does that battle axe feel heavy or powerfull when players can swing it around like a paper weight.. It just doesnt feel right and that again dampens the engagement.. Especially when you do hit a boss with that big bad battle axe and its hp bar doesnt even flinch.... There's no impact, weight or satisfaction and thus no real fun or engagement. just a mundane chore. for healers worst of all. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

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Originally Posted by Dzian

jobs themselves dont help with this.. Warriors for example how does that battle axe feel heavy or powerfull when players can swing it around like a paper weight.. it just doesnt feel right and that again dampens the engagement.. especially when you do hit a boss with that big bad battle axe and its hp bar doesnt even flinch.... there's no impact, weight or satisfaction and thus no real fun or engagement. just a mundane chore. for healers worst of all. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

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There's scarcely any discussion of physics-visuals interaction in which XIV will look even halfway decent, come to think of it...

That said, could you imagine if our old rock-throwing did have those physics? We'd practically be Stagger Mages...

Break their knees (Stone I/II), break their ribs (Stone III), punt them skyward (Stone IV)... Give us that, with each result being visible, significant, and able to be followed up on advantageously by what would appear able to follow up on it (and perhaps with those stone casts being bankably augmentable via procs, etc.), and spamming earth spells would have been meme-worthy for a very different reason.