SMN - Why it is not a very interesting job and not a good upgrade from ACN

-If a name is tied closely to the general expectation of how it will play, why do you want it pet based? If anything, it would be burst casts where the summons make an appearance for a strong attack, and then go away. So..We would essentially be a BLM, but with "super cool Summoner visuals."

Actually? I would like that, this way they may have been bigger or had better visuals(IMO) and most likely ifrit would not be trash since he would not scale off physical damage. In my opinion scholar feels more like a summoner after playing it.

And then enkindle will keep the out for period of time and the ending it with the signature move.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Last I heard, FFXIV is a Final Fantasy game and can develop it's own archetype.

If you don't think so, what is the Summoner archetype?

Also, there is no over-arching theme(Besides creature that is "summoned" does things). Just some people say there is, when really they just have a bias towards certain Final Fantasies.

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The over-arching theme for a Final Fantasy Summoner has every thing to do with those Summons and how they feel. If that feel is not there, the job is not really matching the expectations people have for Summoner, hence why there is this thread.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

It's not a thematic problem. They are introduced in the lore as such. It wasn't a thematic problem in X, from the shift of EVERYTHING prior. Both from altering your party, to directly commanding them, to them ultimately being useless. The overall theme changed with X.

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There are no issues with the lore they used for XIV's summoner, as it pretty much follows the FF Summoner Archtype for lore. Which is tied to having to subdue or display your power to the entity you want to summon, and only ones I can think off-hand that did not have this happen for stronger summons is FF7 and FF9, but that did not affect their over all thematic feel. The issue has to do entirely with the power balance between the Egi and the Summoner being out of whack for a FF Summoner. I fully understand why they went the route they did with it, but they should not have called it Summoner. For example, if they had called it Evoker, which is a name they have used before for weaker Summoners in a game with full Summoners, no problem would exist.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

-Pet isn't insignificant feeling. Simply because people don't look at the numbers, that doesn't mean they are insignificant.
-Totally forgettable? For the lore that is established in XIV, and the fact we don't summon the actual primals, I like the designs. They are sleek, and pretty cool looking. People are saying, "Man, why can't we summon something like Garuda?" -- Well, it wouldn't make sense to summon something that looks like it when we just use an essence of power. Image can reflect power. For summoning an essence, the Egi's do a great job of getting the theme of the primals.

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I know the damage put out from them is not insignificant, they feel insignificant because all they feel like is a DoT with a HP bar as its limit instead of a duration. The forgettable part has nothing to do with their looks, but from how they play. In the long run, the Egi's are not really going to leave a lasting impression on people outside of them being walking DoTs.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

-If a name is tied closely to the general expectation of how it will play, why do you want it pet based? If anything, it would be burst casts where the summons make an appearance for a strong attack, and then go away. So..We would essentially be a BLM, but with "super cool Summoner visuals."

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Which is something that is expected of summons. Either a nice burst damage ability, or a strong utility effect. Also never said wanted it pet based, even XI's Summoner, which is the closest to a pet based Summoner, still fit the expectations of a Summoner. They were limited in duration outside of HP, the power balance between the Summoner and Summon was right, and their signature abilities fit the expected feel even if could only rarely use them. We don't want XI's Summoner because while it felt like a Summoner it was generally seen as useful by the general player base for its 2-hour ability only, or as a healer in a pinch. It was very rare for people to want a Summoner unless they felt they needed the incredible burst potential of the job. Or in the later years, for Perfect Defense.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

The over-arching theme for a Final Fantasy Summoner has every thing to do with those Summons and how they feel. If that feel is not there, the job is not really matching the expectations people have for Summoner, hence why there is this thread.

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Okay, and how do summons feel?

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

There are no issues with the lore they used for XIV's summoner, as it pretty much follows the FF Summoner Archtype for lore. Which is tied to having to subdue or display your power to the entity you want to summon, and only ones I can think off-hand that did not have this happen for stronger summons is FF7 and FF9, but that did not affect their over all thematic feel. The issue has to do entirely with the power balance between the Egi and the Summoner being out of whack for a FF Summoner. I fully understand why they went the route they did with it, but they should not have called it Summoner. For example, if they had called it Evoker, which is a name they have used before for weaker Summoners in a game with full Summoners, no problem would exist.

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No, there can't be this issue, because Summons have always been weak, or not the optimal thing, for the "Summoners" to do. FFXI is different, yeah. The pets did everything, literally. The summoner's didn't have another option, but they were weak in comparison to everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

I know the damage put out from them is not insignificant, they feel insignificant because all they feel like is a DoT with a HP bar as its limit instead of a duration. The forgettable part has nothing to do with their looks, but from how they play. In the long run, the Egi's are not really going to leave a lasting impression on people outside of them being walking DoTs.

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And why is that a problem? I mean, doing a significant portion of your damage, modifying/altering your rotation, and the necessity to micro-manage it in some fights..What else do you want? Not to mention micro-managing the AoE ability, too, because you should have your pet on Obey.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

Which is something that is expected of summons. Either a nice burst damage ability, or a strong utility effect. Also never said wanted it pet based, even XI's Summoner, which is the closest to a pet based Summoner, still fit the expectations of a Summoner. They were limited in duration outside of HP, the power balance between the Summoner and Summon was right, and their signature abilities fit the expected feel even if could only rarely use them. We don't want XI's Summoner because while it felt like a Summoner it was generally seen as useful by the general player base for its 2-hour ability only, or as a healer in a pinch. It was very rare for people to want a Summoner unless they felt they needed the incredible burst potential of the job. Or in the later years, for Perfect Defense.

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-Burst = Enkindle
-Utility = Contagion/Stun

They were also weak. I don't care if I "feel" like A summoner(even though I do in XIV), if I'm weak in comparison to everyone else. You keep talking about the "feel." What "feel?" Certainly that has changed from pre-X to post-X, right?

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-Burst = Enkindle

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dat unreliable 5 minute cooldown

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-Utility = Contagion/Stun

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dat 2 second stun that can't be used on instant demand with a long cooldown
dat ability that isn't utility

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Originally Posted by Crevox

dat unreliable 5 minute cooldown



dat 2 second stun and ability that isn't utility

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It's never been unreliable for me.

Want me to list the utility that the actual summoner brings, which is far greater than any other DPS class, except BRD? In some cases, even better than BRD.

I've kinda gotten over the huge summons thing already.

DoTs, whatever, they're kinda neat once you get into the swing of things.

I wish my pet wasn't so stupid though. I'm running out of buttons to hotkey all the pet commands.

Also, I still don't like the way they look. I've decided the reason is that they don't really have defined features. If you stare at them, they are sorta amorphous with spikes (well titan is a golden popcorn). Maybe its a limitation of the client, but it would be nice if they had more defined physical features rather than just beings of energy.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Okay, and how do summons feel?

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Before I try and explain this, have to say this could be very difficult for you to understand because you seem to look at each action from a purely min/max perspective, that or you are just playing devil's advocate.


First lets go with a checklist the big things that summons over the years have had in common for the thematic side. Good appearances(animation/looks), strong iconic moves, the entity is as strong or stronger than the character, borrow their power for a limited time, and often times have to earn their use. (For those not familiar, appearances can be extremely subjective, though usually the FF summons are a step above most of the other spells/actions/monsters in the game.)

Now lets go down that list for XIV's Egi's. For appearances they do look rather well, however their animations for their attacks are not very awe inspiring, and that is likely due to keeping the game playable for people when large numbers of summoners are in the area. They really do not have the strong iconic moves(damage or utility) and having to stack multiple buffs to achieve a strong attack does not count, even more so when BLM's fire 3 which is gotten much earlier is spammable and is equal to or stronger than a non-buffed enkindle. For the power balance, the controlled Egi's I am pretty sure are no where close to half as strong as the player as I can pull hate off of all but my Topaz Carby/Titan without really trying. The Egi's are not really temporary at all, disposable, but not temporary. We already went of the earning their use earlier so not going over that again. So for me that is only 1.5 out of the 5 big things I expect in a Final Fantasy Summon, and for them to feel right it usually takes 3.5+ of those for me.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

No, there can't be this issue, because Summons have always been weak, or not the optimal thing, for the "Summoners" to do. FFXI is different, yeah. The pets did everything, literally. The summoner's didn't have another option, but they were weak in comparison to everyone else.

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There can be this issue of them being thematically wrong, and for those that only look at thing from a min/max perspective, as you seem to do, they very rarely see the thematic side of things. Which is the entire issue with XIV's Summoner, it does not fit the Final Fantasy Summoner theme.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

And why is that a problem? I mean, doing a significant portion of your damage, modifying/altering your rotation, and the necessity to micro-manage it in some fights..What else do you want? Not to mention micro-managing the AoE ability, too, because you should have your pet on Obey.

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The best way I can explain this one to you, involves visible and invisible power. To best explain this, I am going to use Cure and Regen to illustrate. Cure is a good example of a visible heal, as a player you very clearly know how much of an effect a single cure has. Regen is a good example of an invisible heal, while strong, lots of people over look it because they have no reliable way to quantify how effective it is on the fly, either need a parser of some sort or have to math it out. And on the damage side, DoTs are mostly invisible power. And on the whole always needing to have pet on obey, that is pretty much only because of a need to control one ability on the pet, outside of CC situations.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

-Burst = Enkindle
-Utility = Contagion/Stun

They were also weak. I don't care if I "feel" like A summoner(even though I do in XIV), if I'm weak in comparison to everyone else. You keep talking about the "feel." What "feel?" Certainly that has changed from pre-X to post-X, right?

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On Enkindle being a burst ability, that does not really fly if always have to stack buffs just for it to be worth using due to its long cooldown. Also if you want your burst on Summoner, Fester is going to be your go to burst.

Contagion is not really a utility spell, its another of those invisible power nukes. The stuns are very marginal utility, as most times when would use it there are better stuns available in a group, not to mention invoking diminishing returns on said better stuns. Which makes the stun mostly a solo use skill, and even then it is not needed.

The whole not caring if you feel like a summoner or not if its weaker than everything else is part of why you are not getting this. If you only consider the thematic of something when it is not weaker than everything else, means it is something that is only an after thought.

Also the feel of a Summoner has not changed at all pre-X and post-X. The only place where it has been noticeably different to me, is XIV.

I read your whole post, and I won't comment on the rest of it because this is where we disagree and we can't get past that:

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First lets go with a checklist the big things that summons over the years have had in common for the thematic side. Good appearances(animation/looks), strong iconic moves, the entity is as strong or stronger than the character, borrow their power for a limited time, and often times have to earn their use. (For those not familiar, appearances can be extremely subjective, though usually the FF summons are a step above most of the other spells/actions/monsters in the game.)

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"Strong" iconic moves. I hope you mean "strong" in the visual sense.
They have never really been stronger than the character, barring XI. They're either an MP sponge(sustainability problem) or there's just better options.
Limited time really has nothing to do with the theme, and X didn't have a timer. XI didn't really have a timer at endgame, and Carbuncle especially didn't.
Earning use? Yeah.

XIV hits all those notes for me, though.
"Strong" iconic move -> Enkindle
Not insignificant, damage wise, compared to other Final Fantasies. This is due to them being permanent and aiding our character. No single hit is that high, barring Enkindle, but all the smaller numbers add up.
You earn the use of Ifrit/Garuda/Titan.

Coming from playing Summoner extensively in FFXI (quitted before they raised the cap above 75) so I was still leveling SMN as a gimped WHM in almost every party but tbh I didn't mind that so much. I can enjoy being the healer. So like others when I heard Summoners will be playable in FFXIV I was happy as I can be.
What I could have done was actually read more about this "Summoner" version but nope I decided to go in blindly and discover the class for myself. So 50 levels later I still try to figure out when I actually can start playing Summoner. I mean I had my astral rat as arcanist and it was fun. But I was probably still blinded by the sheer amount of happiness I had when discovering I could keep my pet out and not have to worry about being oom in 20 seconds. (I'm not going into -summoner mp cost equipment/elemental staves).
Now at max level I don't even have my carbi anymore (at least not on smn) but instead I have something that I can only consider a bad joke. The first summon(maybe even the most memorable) you got as a Summoner in FFXI is not even in your arsenal I mean wtf. Given the lore of FFXIV: ARR I can understand why they decided to not make your summons look like the actual primals but this is too much. Most of the minions you get for fun look more like their big brothers than what we got as supposedly the main appeal of the class.
But oh well here is still hoping that in the future SE will allow us to get summons that actually look like the real primals. And Art Assets can easier be changed than gameplay function. (Sure new animation and vfx take time but easier to work into existing gameplay)
Now besides the in my opinion broken aesthetics.
I can only agree to what the majority here is saying. We are playing a necromancer or warlock but not a summoner. I don't rely on my pets to be efficent its just there and does its thing. "But in FFXI you didn't rely on your pets either so why are you complaining now?" Because this was one of the most major complaints people had about the Summoner class in FFXI. Now SE had every chance to build a working pet class. I mean they had do start from scratch and still ignored what people wanted from the Summoner in FFXI. We have broken/awkward pet controls(toggle stances anyone?) plus pets that feel like a placeholder for something.
At least on the scholar while still clunky pet controls the pet actually is needed. At least from personal experience I felt myself rather lacking if my fairy wasn't around.(Dunno how this opinion will change the more I play).

All in all I'll keep playing because this isn't a bad game it's just utterly disappointing what they did with the summoner class and like already mentioned I really really hope that SE will add something worthwhile to the summoner class in the future. Or at least split the Summoner from the dot throwing warlock/necromancer it is right now. So the people who like the current playstyle are not being left out and can continue to enjoy it.

*edit* max 1000 chars per post are silly :(
*edit2* Thanks Hawklaser!

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Originally Posted by Miiu

*edit* max 1000 chars per post are silly :(

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Once have the initial post, can edit it to above 1000 characters.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

I read your whole post, and I won't comment on the rest of it because this is where we disagree and we can't get past that:

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We will just have to agree to disagree then.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

"Strong" iconic moves. I hope you mean "strong" in the visual sense.
They have never really been stronger than the character, barring XI. They're either an MP sponge(sustainability problem) or there's just better options.
Limited time really has nothing to do with the theme, and X didn't have a timer. XI didn't really have a timer at endgame, and Carbuncle especially didn't.
Earning use? Yeah.

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Just going to lightly comment on this part, as will have to agree to disagree on what makes a Final Fantasy Summoner/Summon feel like one. The whole big 5 for me was from a thematic perspective, not a min/max perspective which is how you seem to look at it. When look at them thematically, the summons are indeed as strong or stronger than the character a majority of the time, from a min/max perspective however that goes away because only look at the raw numbers under the best of situations when have all options available. On the limited time, X did have their usage limited, just was done slightly differently due to them replacing your whole party instead of being a single one off ability. And even at end-game in XI, Summons were still limited in duration it was just offset by endgame gear outside of Astral Flow use.

I always say that I feel like a Red Mage with this kit. Just take away the summons, give us a saber, and a few strong melee attacks an d call that good.

Sadly summoner is a warlock which is boring and it ruins the whole summoner concept. Yeh you can say this is XIV and not XI blah blah blah but this is still a Final Fantasy game and all of the final fantasy titles the summons were strong and appearance wise they were incredible. Comparing XI summoner to XIV summoner XI>XIV because summoner actually feels like a summoner and XIV summoner feels like a warlock and nothing like summoner.

Finally caught up! This is a fun discussion, but I felt the need to respond. Was going to post a response to the whole "What is a summoner?" question and ended up with this huge wall of text that looked at all the FF games (that I've played) and brought examples and pointed out mechanical and lore consistencies and all that, but decided no one will probably read it anyways. Now I'm just going to respond to the whole "Summons were always weak!" statement... Short version. XD

Summons, like any other special skill, were as strong as how well you used them. Taking some one elses example and expanding it: Ifrit was essentially Fire 2.5. This was actually pretty significant considering that casting any of the Black Magic spells on a whole party (except endgame AOE only stuff like Ultima) meant you were doing less damage per target. So casting Fire 2 on an enemy party would equal to roughly casting Fire 1 (single target) on all the enemies. Ifrit did damage roughly equal to Fire 2.5, whether it was one target or multiple.

Secondly, Summons as a support were useful in the sense that they could cast White Magic spells on the entire party at once. Spells that, while White Mages normally have, are forced to cast one target at a time. Stone Skin used to be Summoner exclusive until FF11... I think.

Thirdly, Summons bypassed Reflect. Not an important trait, but I felt it was worth mentioning.

So if anything can be said, Summoners were the best AoE'ers.

Conversely, it can be claimed that any of the special skills of the FF Universe are essentially useless. Except maybe White Magic and Martial Arts. I have a few arguments, but none of them are really that convincing. The most obvious example would be the Dragoon jumps. When a Dragoon jumps and lands with any weapon other than a spear, they do exactly the same damage as if they were just attacking normally. If you equip a spear, then they do 2x damage, but jumping and landing takes just as long as if the Dragoon didn't jump and attacked twice instead. So yeah, Dragoon jumps were pretty useless unless you wanted to be tricky and can time the jumps to avoid enemy AoE's. This is excluding the Tactics and MMO games 'cause of the overall difference in philosophy.

Honestly, if you played the FF games as efficiently as possible, you'd only be using Attack command and healing with White Magic occasionally as needed. Maybe you'll occasionally pop a Black Magic spell to take advantage of an elemental weakness (which made things only slightly faster and could also be replaced with Summons) and maybe you'll occasionally use Alchemy (not the crafting MMO style) during boss fights to use some of their really awesome buffs, but none of the special skills can be considered "strong" in the big picture of things. Except for FFV's Blue Magic. Holy crap, Death Claw was amazing! :P

Anyways, I've said my piece. Feel free to ignore it and continue the discussion.

bumpage required

don't thin they will change this job at all
personally this job should have been call something else
that job is fun job but like people said does not feel like a smn at all

would of been better if could capture monsters or some other mechanics. Summoner is awful.

What I wanted was a class that would have me summon pets around my size maybe a little smaller. A class where I would cast buffs on my pet , a class that would use combine attacks with my pet. I hate to be one of those people but the main reason i wanted this game was because i was going to have the ability to play a cool summoner. Had I known this was the class I wouldn't of bothered.

It's their game and they have the artistic license to call any class whatever they want but they were extremely misleading when the common accepted job for a summoner in mmorpgs is a class that uses summons. It would be like having a black mage have only one offensive spell and the rest were buffs.

The same way rockstar games has artistic lisence to make gta whatever they want. but wouldn't you be pissed if you bought gta 5 expecting to do missions and drive cars and it just ended up being a nursing home simulator?

Summoner just makes me feel like a Warlock and never a Summoner. :(

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Originally Posted by Dean86

would of been better if could capture monsters or some other mechanics. Summoner is awful.

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Originally Posted by jlewiss

Had I known this was the class I wouldn't of bothered.

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This is completely off-topic, but it's "have," not "of." What is wrong with you people?

I feel like Summoner in FFXIV is not really what I was hoping for at all.

Summoners are interesting for what they are but leave me wanting way more than any other class I've ever played in a game. I don't feel epic and wonderful or like I get to fulfill that wonderful sense of "A Final Fantasy summoner". I feel like some guy was ugly minions running around DoTing things up and sometimes reviving people. Aesthetically the summoner is epic but the summons are not. Mechanically the summoner is epic but the summons are not. Spiritually the summoner does not live up to the title of summoner in a Final Fantasy title.

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Originally Posted by jlewiss

they have the artistic license to call any class whatever they want but they were extremely misleading when the common accepted job for a summoner in mmorpgs is a class that uses summons. It would be like having a black mage have only one offensive spell and the rest were buffs.

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Actually, it's funny you say that, considering black mages only actually get one new attack spell, with the other four being defensive or crowd control related. Agreed though. Initially, I started playing an arcanist cause I was excited to see carbuncle again, but the summoner's not really playing how I anticipated it would. Rather, instead of that, like many have said, it's basically a warlock. Which... is fine I guess, I mean I've played warlock a couple times in games, but it's not what I was expecting per say. A little unfortunate, yes. But summoner will probably not see very many changes. We may see a couple tweaks perhaps, but I'm not expecting anything big.

I completely feel you guys.

I didn't play summoner to be a high damage dps (I couldnt care less if they sucked), I wanted to be a Summoner BECAUSE I wanted to HAVE FUN INTERACTING A LOT and feel EXTREMELY ENGAGED and like a team with my pet, to be something DIFFERENT
Casting a fricking "Enkindle" every 5 mins IS NOT interacting with my garuda-egi , and nor is casting a BUFF and forgetting about Garuda-egi They are just Dot.s that move or a meat sheild.
Lets get real, and stop making stupid excuses like "what is a summoner" because that's a stupid question that can NEVER be truly answered, but for those who HAVE played the Final Fantasy's series, there is a general "expectation" whether you agreed or not, some people aren't satisfied.

IF you don't agree and and are completely satisfied, why are you posting then? YOU AREN'T gonna change the The forum starters minds at all, you are only attempting to VALIDATED your BIAS opinion of the class being fine.
If you are like Kevee, cool, you are a Great Dps and satisfied with what a summoner looks and feels like, and do not believe anything that any changes are needed besides whatever YOU want changed. then cool continue to play summoner and go on raids and stuff, because you are happy with the class :D

But do not go around attempting to justify and make everyone repeat their points and saying bs to something you don't agree on in hope of attempting to change peoples mind, because there is a reason people on on this forum and because...
A) They agree and would like change.
B) State changes that could be made

if you are attempting C) which is --- "Play the Devil's Advocate"
Then just leave everyone here to express their sadness about this class, because no one wants to read 50 comments on one uptight persons opinion, and their continued attempts to piss off, actually pretty decent people that seem logically, patience and intelligent.

IF you have no problem, you have no reason to stay but for attention seeking needs and free time, go save a baby or something.
rant over.

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Originally Posted by Samich4ME

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so people who disagree with you should just shut up right?

I totally love SMN. Played FFXI SMN and the other FF titles. I love what they've done and the direction it's going. Keep adding new summons and abilities! A few tweaks would be nice, but overall it's AWESOME!

The OP is on par with my Sentiments. I started early access as ACN, then dropped it a few levels after getting Summoner. The class gets work done and is one of the best classes at what it does. But it's boring...and it didn't make me feel like a summoner. Granted, that's mostly sentiment...and probably a feeling that is pretty strong due to the image SE has given to Summoners/summons over the course of their FF titles. But as an FF title, they should have put in a little more effort into making a summoner a little closer to it's classic role. I almost feel like it was rushed. They literally just took the DOT aspects of THM from 1.0 and made a new class out of it. Allowed that class to summon a pet to boost the DPS a little, and boom...new class that everyone flocks to.

My only consolation for spending the 34 levels on ACN/SMN is that Eye for an Eye makes my THM that much more well rounded.

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Originally Posted by glim

so people who disagree with you should just shut up right?

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That is not what Samich4ME is saying. It was more along the lines of realizing when to stop beating a dead horse.

you realize that as summoner you only have 5 skill? i means the jobs by itself is 5 skill... all the rest are coming from the arcanist.
they have already states that the jobs will get more and more skill with the increase of level.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

That is not what Samich4ME is saying. It was more along the lines of realizing when to stop beating a dead horse.

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^^ Yes! Hawklaser understands!

As a big fan of the summoner class i have to agree with the OP, I don't really understand the counter argument of it being okay as it is. Sure it could be considered functional but is that all we really want? As the name Summoner implies it should be focused on the summoning aspect - were doing exactly the same thing as was done to the summoner in XI. Were just accepting what it currently is and not what it should and could be by turning a blind eye to this poorly designed concept. And as for the argument about how most jobs don't drastically change how the class is played there are many things that functionally change how you approach some concepts such as Regen for WHM. But i agree this isn't just a problem for just summoner, but summoner is definitely getting the worst of it.

Essentially a good portion of people generally don't enjoy watered down clones of classes from other MMO's so why are we okay with this wannabe warlock? I enjoyed the various warlock classes from other games but i check my nostalgia at the door when playing a new game. And this... this just lacks the very foundation from which the class is derived from and not just the storyline you follow to unlock it but throughout the entire quest chains relevance to the importance of the egi's and the summoners in general. How can you justify the defined lore and role surrounding the class to being just ignored?

Fact is the pets need to be more important to the summoner and not just garuda, how are they going to implement more egi's when the only reason we effectively even deal with having one out is to extend our dot duration?

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Originally Posted by Nichigo

But as an FF title, they should have put in a little more effort into making a summoner a little closer to it's classic role.

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Well, its classic role was super long cast times for little yield unless talented with other cross skills. But i get your drift.
This must be an Asian thing, as this is the third game in which the summoner role, was really a dot role with a pet playing as an elaborate dot for the summoner (ROSE, Aion).

I do long for a summoner class in which the pet plays a more integral part of of the summoner other than 30% of the total dps. More interaction (or at least..some control that isnt taxing) and more skill combination (summoner casts something, pet casts something, they combine to form a captain planet attack or w/e).

But i assume its mechanics because every pet class i have ever played has been boring or unimaginative. (aside from necromancer from rift, it was always well done pet class especially after the last major revamp).

meh. SMN is fine the way it is but I also wouldn't mind some of the suggestions on this thread.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonJenn

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ok, let's stop right there the summoner (the jobs) have 5 skill:

- summon 3 (a new pet)
- fester, an attack that give you a nice burst if well used
- tri disaster, a control
- spur, a cd buff for your pet
- enkindle, a new attack for each pet!

from my view point the summoner is oriented pet class... sadly people tend to forget that all the other skill are coming from the arcanist. you will need to wait the increase in cap level for be able to say this class or this class is not this or that.

I think one of the best points to be made about this is that (as someone else said) most of the job skills give little interaction with the pet. Just more "fire and forget" stuff.
It'd be really neat if we had the ability to move pets while casting but also if melee pets got flanking bonuses. Give us more skills that originate from the pets position (like the Eos AoE heal). Give us better reaction time when hitting command buttons so it feels smoother when controlling the pets. Give us more synergy with what we do and what our pets do, like if we use fester on a target then our Garuda-egi will use that target for contagion (or if we use sustain on Titan-egi it'll use it's defensive cds) to where the only way we have of controlling our pets is not just the manual use of their skills but they react to US and our skill sets as their summoners. Give more diversity in what the summons do other than role. Give us the feeling that we are calling upon the essence of a primal that we've fought and killed by letting the moves not just be named after primal mechanics but also emulate them completely (Landslide for Titan-egi would look like a long strip that knocks enemies back, Garuda-egi could summon little feathers that would surround a target and attack all targets around it, Ifrit-egi could split into three and bum rush a target). Give us back carbuncle... It's way better looking than the Garuda-egi and feels more unique aesthetically too. Let summons cast their signature abilities (enkindle) more often, with lower potency so we get that feeling like they do what we know them for but also change it up a bit.

In general I don't think our job skills are bad at all and if we had a better set up then it'd be neat get more stuff for us and some fire-and-forgets for the pet... it's just that I want it to feel better for remembering that we even have a pet. Start the fight off with 6 (a macro for Rouse, Spur and Enkindle) then don't care about it pretty much until Rouse is off CD (at which point I will actually check to make sure it's alive). Of course this makes me intrinsically worse than a SMN who pays attention to everything but I don't feel that it's by a large degree. :[ I agree with the level cap statement though, hopefully we will see more good stuff for our summons with more levels. ^^

I'm disappointed how Square Enix has not replied to any of the summoner concerns, it is clear that a large amount of people do not like the current state or feel of the summoner class and that it does not match up with most people's thoughts of how a summoner should be. Granted, it works a lot like WoW's Warlocks, which can still be great fun, however this should not be the summoner class.

Well they answered another summoner thread inside the general discussion forum about general summoner concerns and egi design. They only adressed remarks about the egi design "they're not going to change them" but they welcome all the feedback they can get about summoner. So basically they said nothing :P

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Originally Posted by shinros

Exactly what I' wanted as a summoner someone that commands and deals their main damage through pets.

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BINGO! What was thinking just like how it should be in the FF series and what FFXI did a good job compare to this version in XIV. Very disappointed and waiting for SMN since version 1.0 in this is what they gave me oh well now i have to deal with it.

FFXIV initially had one magic based DD job (BLM). I think SE wanted one more to balance things out a little (MNK, DRG, BRD all melee/ranged non magic based). SMN then got, to my believe, rushed in so we'd have another caster dealing damage. What we should know also: Yoshi worked on WoW. You can not NOT believe he did not see affliction warlocks play. If any of you played one, FFXIV's SMN is an affliction warlock: the exact same, even the abilities.

Now, that's not a bad thing per defenition. I bet a lot of SMNs out there like their SMN. However, if SE took their time, a SMN would be all about dealing dmg through their summons, hence Summoner. They could have had SMNs summon their pats during battle in order to do abilities: dot A Ifrit, dot B titan, dot C Garuda etc.. Instead of letting there pets auto attack and placing all dots theirselves.

I hope, as many of you here do, they will change this a little. Unfortunately I don't see it happening.

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Originally Posted by Yukagama

FFXI did a good job compare to this version in XIV.

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A good job? Summoner was one of the worst classes in FFXI. Outside of summons it had nothing to fall back on. The only thing people wanted summoner for when leveling was their obscenely large MP pool to use for healing parties all the way to 75. After the cap started going up it wasn't that bad, but the avatars were still weak in comparison to other players because of timers. Sure, summoners had some use for certain fights, but most of the time other jobs would be better suited for dealing damage.

Summoner was my main back in FFXI despite the gaping flaws it had. I loved the job purely because it was summoner and it still is in FFXIV. This version is involving, I get to do stuff instead of standing around like an idiot waiting to issue orders to my summon or curing others left and right. Doing damage solely through our pet hasn't worked in FFXI and would work even less now.

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Originally Posted by TrowaT

meh. SMN is fine the way it is but I also wouldn't mind some of the suggestions on this thread.

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SMN is a good DPS class and the only thing that need some changes is the pet system. Summons needs to be something better than an auto-attack turret and needs more interactions with the master.

Also, a nice skill from the summoner class from Lineage 2 is Trasfer Pain, a skill that transfers a % of the damage you receive to the summon. Depending on the level MP is comsumed continuously.

I really miss this skill, would be so nice.

I played summoner in ffxi too (but not past the level 75 cap) and I agree with you that summoners in FFXI got the worst end of the stick. We were main healers and usually restrained from using our summons because they would drain our mp pools too fast. At least before you got all your staves and smn equip (yay free carbi). Only thing you were mostly allowed to use was garuda's group blink. While in practice the job didn't really work and never saw any real change except of new summons during my play time in theory it was more sound and summoner like than the version we got right now. I always was under the impression that a summoner would need need to adapt his pet to the current situation of the fight. The summons in FFXI had that at a "basic" level.

Now we only have garuda out because of contagion.