Yoshi P - Your next live letter, DT msq and the damage to the brand

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

If what you believe is true, the next live letter will just be a carry on as you are episode.
I feel it will be somewhat different.

SE's response to dt will tell one way or the other.

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Oh, I do think MSQ complaints will be addressed in the next LL but not for the reasons you think. They'll mention it because of how loud and over the top the complaints have been.

DT story had issues with pacing, character motivations, line delivery etc. But nothing that is "damaging the brand" or anything so hyperbolic. You'd think DT destroyed Final Fantasy as a whole reading some of these comments.

I think DT is great besides the MSQ being a bit disappointing but I also didn't expect the MSQ to be near as good as Endwalker (the climax of a 10 year story arc).

I predict a reiteration of "We are listening to player feedback in regards to the future story", without directly saying anything was bad. They don't exactly want to throw their own team or anyone working on the game under the bus. I'd be surprised if it wasn't very delicately and diplomatically worded, but with all the craziness surrounding the game's MSQ reception lately, who knows?

Whens the next PLL? I wanna know when we gonna get another Variant dungeon to solo and new alliance raid o: sorry if this is off topic ^^'

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

Simple question, what actions will the team announce at the next live letter to try and repair the DT story writing?

Replacing one person as the msq writer isn't the complete answer by any means. The whole team must have reviewed, discussed and finally approved this msq over a lengthy period as a good enough product for the playerbase.

So, what next Yoshi P? Carry on as we are or announce revisions?

The next live letter will be very interesting.

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I'm gonna keep it a buck. It's not even going to be acknowledged, lol.

The critic reviews are generally favorable.
The user reviews are mixed or average.

Unless the player data somehow matches hatred and vitriol being posted here and other social media platforms (it's not). Then the criticism will go unheeded.

There will be no walkbacks, there will be no retcons, there will be no revisions. They have a plan, they're going to follow through with it.

my take is they going to pretend nothing happen, but quietly change some of the writing

there is no way they going to ignore this, this expansion almost breaking apart the whole ff14 community trust toward the dev

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Originally Posted by Rayplicant

Oh, I do think MSQ complaints will be addressed in the next LL but not for the reasons you think. They'll mention it because of how loud and over the top the complaints have been.

DT story had issues with pacing, character motivations, line delivery etc. But nothing that is "damaging the brand" or anything so hyperbolic. You'd think DT destroyed Final Fantasy as a whole reading some of these comments.

I think DT is great besides the MSQ being a bit disappointing but I also didn't expect the MSQ to be near as good as Endwalker (the climax of a 10 year story arc).

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It's not just that DT is bad. It's that it is something bad that followed very highly rated xpacs. This magnifies how bad it is and naturally causes most people to question what the future of the game is. Assuming the mistake is a one off is bizarre. DT wouldn't be their first miss.

Outside the STB fumble, the game was on a literal upward trajectory critically and commercially. DT is like dropping off a cliff.

wow, people are still mad? :D

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

wow, people are still mad? :D

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i think this will stay until something will change. and yes people are still mad and thats for good. People pay hard earned money for this game and have emotions to it, so yeah its okay to be mad :)

I mean... folks expecting some kind of change to story are not going to see it, realistically the devs are likely at least 2-3 patches deep into the story already. So yeah... unless they preplanned an alternative its what we got until next expansion. Yoshi P mentioned a few times they gave several story ideas and are kinda just tossing whatever with the story to see what sticks and if it doesnt it'll be a 1 off and try again next expansion.

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

I mean... folks expecting some kind of change to story are not going to see it, realistically the devs are likely at least 2-3 patches deep into the story already. So yeah... unless they preplanned an alternative its what we got until next expansion. Yoshi P mentioned a few times they gave several story ideas and are kinda just tossing whatever with the story to see what sticks and if it doesnt it'll be a 1 off and try again next expansion.

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my problem with Yoshi P doing that in expac and not during patch content means that we are basically paying for trial products, and they will lose players that way.

they should imo rather create a PST which you can register for free on where they test small parts of the stories and then when they see something is resonated with, they build around that I mean DT for me would have been fine as patch content but not as expac.

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Originally Posted by Achereon

my problem with Yoshi P doing that in expac and not during patch content means that we are basically paying for trial products, and they will lose players that way.

they should imo rather create a PST which you can register for free on where they test small parts of the stories and then when they see something is resonated with, they build around that I mean DT for me would have been fine as patch content but not as expac.

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DT as just ONE or TWO patch content would be reasonable at least, but not this shit we got

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Originally Posted by Aurumis

DT as just ONE or TWO patch content would be reasonable at least, but not this shit we got

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one can even go as far as splitting it you go there and assist with the race then Dawn servant gets elected yada yada; you go do Expac save the shard Alexandria is on by utilising different techniques make it the mission of Azem to restore the different shards Y'shtolla finally finds a way to reunite with Runar or something but this of course causes issue because of something you accidently do and ta-da patch content you need to fix the mess you made by going back there and seeing that Zoraal Ja basically took control of Tural due to your characters unfortunate hubris and second part DT commences this is just as short summary but even that would have been acceptable to me.

They can't realistically just suddenly change things, that's not how it works. So I work in the comic industry and usually the books I work on are about 3-4 months ahead of the release date. I know some books I've worked on are written anywhere from 6 months-a year ahead. If a book I worked on came out and got tons of negative feedback well, there's nothing we can do about it for the next 1-3 issues because the next few issues are already done at that point. A videogame is going to be done behind the scenes far more ahead of time than a comic because obviously a videogame takes way more time to make. You're realistically not going to see any major changes for a few patches.

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

They can't realistically just suddenly change things, that's not how it works. So I work in the comic industry and usually the books I work on are about 3-4 months ahead of the release date. I know some books I've worked on are written anywhere from 6 months-a year ahead. If a book I worked on came out and got tons of negative feedback well, there's nothing we can do about it for the next 1-3 issues because the next few issues are already done at that point. A videogame is going to be done behind the scenes far more ahead of time than a comic because obviously a videogame takes way more time to make. You're realistically not going to see any major changes for a few patches.

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O they can do a lot for one thing they can rewrite some dialogue (removing certain main characters making them more a side character) as that is easy; they can change which person to talk to to prompt quests; they can remove bad voice overs they cannot change the story, but they can make it more bearable by changing camera angles and as prior mentioned.

but honestly at most I feel SE just acknowledging their faulty argument that Tural-merica will sell globally and everyone will approve as probably the consultants made them believe will go a long way.

Is this a rift in the community? Have they lost control of the narrative?
https://i.imgur.com/AR5URNz.jpeg

The only thing we can expect in the next live letter. It would piss people off though.

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Originally Posted by RabendaShin

Please do not focus solely on the Japanese side of the Dawntrail production. Please consider the complaints regarding the English localization and its subpar quality. I am very disappointed with Dawntrail in English.

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Are they still using Koji Fox? Man I miss that guy. Every time there's a live letter or something I get bummed out because we're not seeing him anymore.

perfect example.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opyv1KsAruk&t=259s

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Originally Posted by Astronema

perfect example.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opyv1KsAruk&t=259s

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Honestly YoshiP I believe is not the only one in this case that should apologize but the entirety of Square Enix board as they promised earlier this year that they will look at only producing quality and that they have let go of certain groups.

so for me whether this was YoshiP cause his other game was criticized as to "white" or Square forcing him both should be equally scrutinized as Square basically broke their promise and we know Yoshi can do better

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Originally Posted by Mainasu

I predict a reiteration of "We are listening to player feedback in regards to the future story", without directly saying anything was bad. They don't exactly want to throw their own team or anyone working on the game under the bus. I'd be surprised if it wasn't very delicately and diplomatically worded, but with all the craziness surrounding the game's MSQ reception lately, who knows?

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They already gave an interview. The MSQ author said how different it turned out to write this than theatrics while existing writers thanked and praised the author and whatnot in a way sounding like "we know, noob did it wrong but not intentionally". So it's obvious they know it's poorly received. Online scores/reviews are the lowest of all expansions, damage has been done. But don't expect they would fire anyone as this wasn't done intentionally and likely 50 people reviewed and greenlit all of the MSQ and its implementation. I also doubt the main author decided on every quest and pacing.

Some people also speculate their Q&A caught the MSQ weird aspects like the Hanu Hanu paradox with the festive so they quickly added an "explainer" dialog :)

Till late October or early November there won't be much communication from them I guess. Then we will get 7.1 and some letters from the producer. Now they "must" nail the grind content and abuse Honey B. Lovely or Bakool Ja Ja for some fan service and people will be happy (or horny) :P

Sometime during the next LL:

"We recieved your, the communities, feedback regarding the story of Dawntrail and did not anticipate that it would bot resonate with all of.

As an apology we introduce the highly anticipated Ass - Slider that you have been requesting for years.

Please enjoy the new customization of your Warrior of Light and share your screenshots on social media.

Until next time."

If that happens, I think DT scores will skyrocket and become the highest rated expansion ever.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

They already gave an interview. The MSQ author said how different it turned out to write this than theatrics while existing writers thanked and praised the author and whatnot in a way sounding like "we know, noob did it wrong but not intentionally". So it's obvious they know it's poorly received. Online scores/reviews are the lowest of all expansions, damage has been done. But don't expect they would fire anyone as this wasn't done intentionally and likely 50 people reviewed and greenlit all of the MSQ and its implementation. I also doubt the main author decided on every quest and pacing.

Some people also speculate their Q&A caught the MSQ weird aspects like the Hanu Hanu paradox with the festive so they quickly added an "explainer" dialog :)

Till late October or early November there won't be much communication from them I guess. Then we will get 7.1 and some letters from the producer. Now they "must" nail the grind content and abuse Honey B. Lovely or Bakool Ja Ja for some fan service and people will be happy (or horny) :P

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Where is that interview please? Do you have a link or search term to find it? Would love to read their take.

i dont pay attention to stuff like that but simce they work on a pretty precise timeplan, does somebody know around when we can expect the next live letter?

Dunno when, but have a feeling a lot of people will be disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Sivante

YT. Where people tiptoe around negative commentary for fear of not being invited to the media tours and 'making it.' I'll listen to players over the social media, but thank you.

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Openly acknowledge I didn't read most of your post, but saw this line at the beginning and wanted to point out - I'm not talking about the "content creators" on YT. I'm talking random people posting comments (of which both positive and negative ones exist) and then looking at the upvotes. Being invited to anything has nothing to do with any of that. I recommend checking out videos on the OST, and then looking in the comment section, where people will often talk about the part of the story associated with the particular music track. For example, the relatively huge topic on this forum of the "healer strike" currently has just over 400 upvotes, and several of the "I hate DT" or "Wuk Lumat is terrible" threads clock in around 200. Meanwhile, one of the Living Memory videos has people talking about how meaningful the zone was to them getting over 800 upvotes, and likewise the Lvl 95 dungeon music has positive story comments getting 750+ upvotes. That's just regular people who are enjoying the game looking up the music and agreeing with the positive vibes.

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Originally Posted by Elaithe

Grow up.

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I hate to brush the feelings aside but we gotta get back to the reality:

- FF14 makes up a majority of SE's revenue
- FF14 advertises the story as the strong point
- Almost half of the playerbase didn't like the story

I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty of running a business but I'm sure people are capable of doing a little simple cause & effect to piece together a potential for loss of revenue due to the quality of the story we were presented with. Regardless of the circumstances behind the story not being particularly well received compared to any other expansion, the company is currently in an environment where a loss of revenue can occur. As part of risk management certain actions will probably need to be taken to mitigate the potential losses since it's a lot harder to get someone to restart their sub than to convince them to keep paying it. You also don't want an environment where new players are deterred from beginning the game because they're waiting for it to "get good." Again, from a purely business sense.

You can go play a cult classic and tell your friends about how it deserved better etc. This isn't the game for that kind of stuff. It needs to be well received by a vast majority of the playerbase because that's where the money's coming from. No money, no SE. It's unfortunate to come to terms with the reality especially when you disagree with it or feel like it's unfair, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles. I think the best way to "grow up" is to recognize these types of realities in our lives and come to terms with them. Hope this puts the op's post into a better understood context for you.

The only thing i want from the next LL is the announcement that Ishikawa will be writing the MSW again from now.
I don't think i will keep playing if they keep the current writers.

One of the primary problems with the MSQ is that it feels like a mobile game main story, where Wuk Lamat is the mascot character that speaks for you and never leaves you tf alone.

honestly I found the MSQ a total snooze festival and I wound up skipping most of the cut scenes with Wuk. Plus what story was actually there for the scions? it felt so broken and shoe horned into the main story any time you met with them.

it felt like this

WoL Wuk
Wuk WoL
Wuk scions
What are you doing here this is MY story.
WoL get me out of here please Yshtola!

I’d invite to see this video.
It has been brought up to me from a friend and i think it has good starting points for where to start writing feedbacks which can defined as such.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=020X...51gA6iGGUmTq9e

And a personal note on the side: even if I understand why someone would want “to fire” who’s responsible (in this case the creative team for the narrative), I want to remind that
1) Firing does not resolve the problem and in general compnaies tends to avoid firing their employees.
2) In general there’s the need of an approval by the supervisor before something can be delivered. I’d be more mad with whoever thought and approved the story than with the ones who wrote it.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

snip

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I apologize if that may sound harsh or disrespectful but that’s not a good take.
You are cherry-picking different things to fit a narrative.

First you are comparing post on a forum with posts on a video game soundtrack.
YouTube has by far a larger audience than the forum or Reddit by default.

Even those who hate DT say that the music is good me included and many give praise where praise is due.
So the music videos are the wrong approach.
Also you exclude posts under videos about the story or content creators.
Those posts are dependent on the video itself normally.
A critical cc has more critical posts about the story and a cc with a positive opinion has more with a positive attitude as well.
I didn’t do math here but all in all it seems that the amount of critical cc is higher and there are more comments with more negative stances.
YouTube is quite “territorial” with people watching those with a similar opinion.


Let’s also look at the Japanese forum because it is known over there as being extremely positive of the game normally.
I linked that thread multiple times already and I am on mobile so apologies for not doing it again.

Positive comments range at like ratio of about 20 some at around 30.
Negative comments range around 100 some even approaching the 200.
That’s a regularly over all pages.
It also seems to be the fastest growing thread over there.

On page 108 you can find a post that says the following:

“ However, I got the impression that a considerable proportion of those who wrote positive opinions said things like "There are some things in the scenario that bother me." It seems that there are very few people who praise it without reservation.”

So even in Japan the general opinion seems to be not positive or mixed. No one knows what is the majority here though.

Reddit as well:
The main sub is extremely positive normally with a heavy base of downvoting negative opinions. That’s why the discussion sub exists over there and the F***youfridays thread where everyone is allowed to just go nuts to let off steam.
Even the main sub is majority negative with negative posts getting heavy upvotes and positive posts or threads getting only a few if any.

Granted I only speak of what I saw but so do you.
Your findings do not prove that the majority liked DT just that the people generally like the music.

Many (also including me) with a negative opinion also say that the groundwork itself was good and that the storyboard would have worked but that the executing is the problem.

That’s all from me.
I’m tired of always repeating the same thing over and over again.


On topic:
With the Japanese side being so negative about the points I also didn’t like (WoL sidelined, childish storytelling) and the big content creators like Preach reviewing DT as mixed I am hopeful for the future.
The only thing I am fearful off right now is the localization with all I have read also with localizing of other works (I fear they will force the Lamati thing on us).
I actually think of switching to German to be on the safe side even though I prefer English and am normally a big fan of the voice acting in English.

Looking at the Metacritic User scores for all the Online Final Fantasy we have:
FFXI = 7.4; FFXIV: 1.0 - 4.0; ARR - 7.7; HW - 8.7; SB - 8.9; ShB - 9.1; EW - 8.7 and DT - 6.0

SE really will need to address this it is not 1.0 damage but it is super close

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Originally Posted by Achereon

SE really will need to address this it is not 1.0 damage but it is super close

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You don't know what you're talking about.
The fact that you can comfortably type that says it all.
So, respectfully.

I'm 99% sure the MSQ would have been received a bit more positively if there was more gameplay on it. More gameplay than "go here to speak to WL, go there to keep speaking with WL, come back to the first point to speak with WL, talk to this NPC about WL, come back to WL and tell her what the NPC said..." lemme press combat buttons! Throw me into a LOT of Solo duties with my WoL and the scions. Make it like a real FF not just the visual novel part. This is FIRST a videogame and the only times the MSQ made me do things was in 4 dungeons and 3 trials...that's like 2 hours of total gameplay in a 40h MSQ. Ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Shinku_Tachi

You don't know what you're talking about.
The fact that you can comfortably type that says it all.
So, respectfully.

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this is not comfortable typing nor me not knowing what I am talking about but what i am seeing:

the fact that people believe this game has been a massive success when the contrary is there
the fact that we all know SE is not at the best place currently as they lost 150 million USD for just the 2023-2024 Financial year.
the fact that since 2021 aside from EW they had numerous failed titles where a lot of money was sunk into.
the fact that SE stocks has fell by 27% in the last 6 months
the fact that there was mass lay offs

so, my question is do you think SE will just ignore a game that has since its restructuring not once had such a division in reviews leaving it to go unnoticed, they might not address it physically, but I am certain they will do something about it companies can only last so long if games they produce keep failing.

it is sad to write, and I don't want to ever see a repeat of what happened prior to 1.0 I also do not wish it upon anyone but just looking at what is seen on the internet going through numerous articles; videos; comments; financial records one can see SE needed DT to be a massive success.

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Originally Posted by royox

I'm 99% sure the MSQ would have been received a bit more positively if there was more gameplay on it. More gameplay than "go here to speak to WL, go there to keep speaking with WL, come back to the first point to speak with WL, talk to this NPC about WL, come back to WL and tell her what the NPC said..." lemme press combat buttons! Throw me into a LOT of Solo duties with my WoL and the scions. Make it like a real FF not just the visual novel part. This is FIRST a videogame and the only times the MSQ made me do things was in 4 dungeons and 3 trials...that's like 2 hours of total gameplay in a 40h MSQ. Ridiculous.

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I think there's plenty of people who are growing tired of the narrative style of FFXIV, as in, over dependence of living expository dialogue with long stretches of walking in between... But I don't think that's ever gonna change. First, it seems that the Japanese audience has zero issues with it, and we know they're the only voice that matters. Second if CBU3 has left something clear is that they should remove the C from the company name, because they're everything but Creative. They haven't tried anything new since HW

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Originally Posted by Elaithe

This is such an absurd post it's hard to even like fully comprehend that a serious person is actually saying this stuff.

They put out 10 years of bangers, start a new story from scratch, and y'all can't even let them get past the opener before calling it a failure.

I think you all live in a little bubble where you actually believe everyone around you hated it or something. Grow up.

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Look everyone allowed a view if your view aligns with this person get some help and stop being on net. We need WOL not unhinged of light. If ppl dont like it ppl dont like it. You need to chill and touch some dirt.

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Originally Posted by Achereon

this is not comfortable typing nor me not knowing what I am talking about but what i am seeing:

the fact that people believe this game has been a massive success when the contrary is there
the fact that we all know SE is not at the best place currently as they lost 150 million USD for just the 2023-2024 Financial year.
the fact that since 2021 aside from EW they had numerous failed titles where a lot of money was sunk into.
the fact that SE stocks has fell by 27% in the last 6 months
the fact that there was mass lay offs

so, my question is do you think SE will just ignore a game that has since its restructuring not once had such a division in reviews leaving it to go unnoticed, they might not address it physically, but I am certain they will do something about it companies can only last so long if games they produce keep failing.

it is sad to write, and I don't want to ever see a repeat of what happened prior to 1.0 I also do not wish it upon anyone but just looking at what is seen on the internet going through numerous articles; videos; comments; financial records one can see SE needed DT to be a massive success.

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First off, I said what I said because you said Dawntrail is "super close" to 1.0 damage. It's not even close. Anyone who was around back then knows better.

Secondly, regarding the "the fact that" stuff, Eurogamer just released an article stating that despite the issues in other sectors, the MMO sector saw a rise in sales and profits.

As for your question to me, that depends more on player data and player retention. Dawntrail and Wuk Lamat hate threads and angry user reviews can be posted till the cows come home, but unless the player data corroborates that, it means nothing. While Dawntrail isn't as beloved as Heavensward or Shadowbringers, the Dawntrail doomsday narrative is nonsense, reviews from games press are generally favorable and user reviews are more mixed.

So, if you're sad, turn that frown upside down. While it may not be ideal for you now, 14 isn't falling apart, and we're not anywhere near a 1.0 crisis, not by a country mile.

Irrespective of of how SE is doing, it's interesting to look at player trends on Steam (which can undoubtedly be used to roughly extrapolate general subscribers) and see that the game hits high points on expansion release months, ans then downtrends in the months afterward. DT is doing pretty normally and even at its weakest, is outdoing any given middle of patch period in active players. So yeah, it's no wonder SE isn't rushing to do anything to do anything much about the game. From their perspective DT did a decent job bringing back most of EW fans. That said, it's also a strong reason why you should vote with your wallet if you don't like the direction the game is going.

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Originally Posted by Uncle_Jafar

I haven't played DT yet. But didn't SB have a strong female leader also? I don't recall anyone making star wars comparison or crying 'woke.'

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You didn't play it, so don't talk about woke... Because it's off-topic. And you've got to stop with all this woke talk...

The problem with Wuk Lamat isn't a woke problem, after the 1st part of the story, she becomes a powerful character, but that's not the problem.

She's an inconsistent character, absolutely too good for her own good and badly written.

The scions are “divided” and we find ourselves following a princess who knows nothing about life, we babysit the 1st part of MSQ and for the 2nd part, she's just too nice for her own good against all logic.

Everyone says “Wuk Lamat must die” but the problem isn't just about her. When you come out of a ShB and EW, it just sucks. The normal 8-story raid sucks, the last zone well, you don't get the wow effect of previous expansions. There are people who loved it, but there are also a lot of people who hated it, just look at the Metacritic rating from players, not the rating from the so-called pro media.

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Removing all that, dungeons require “a little” more skill, and so all the casuals crying “PvE too hard” is a Skills Issues problem, nothing else. Oh yes, people are crying because they can't do their dungeons with their hands down their pants.

You just have to be vigilant, or you can die over and over again, just like on content that requires a little vigilance, nothing insurmountable, but people exaggerate.

PvE content is cool, at least I'm having fun, but that's all there is. It's just tasteless Gear that doesn't make you want to farm for it. And so we're left to make do with 2-color dyeing with Job Relics and Cashop's outfit, to make ourselves look good.

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Anyway forgettable MSQ, forgettable zone, I only liked Yak'Tel's BGM, I'm avoiding the new Tuli-Jazz capital whose BGM is so irrelevant, too bad... If SE had put Yak'Tel day's BGM, it would have been perfect at least. I sometimes hang out at Solution Nine, but that's about it.

I don't have the WoaW effect of Elpis, Ultima Thule, Old Sharlayan, Moon. at ShB once the MSQ was over, I used to hang around the zones quite a bit for the atmosphere and the BGM, here... I'm going back to the old expansion zones. And I turn off BGM in Tuli-Jazz and Raid normal (Arcadion).

And we've got a typical "save Afrika" BGM (I say that because it reminds me of We're the world - USA for Afrika from the '80s) with “Smile” used at times that really don't match the moment ever.
We're building a bomb to blow something up, everyone comes to help, and we get this “Smile” track that makes it feel like it's my party, the world is wonderful, it's even the final theme of Dawntrail, a far cry from EW's Flow or ShB's Tomorow to Tomorow.

Yes, some people find DT grandiose for the zones, but not for me...

With WoW's new expac coming out in like 5 days instead of the usual within the same time as FFXIV's expansions/patches (which i think would have been terrible for FFXIV this time around if that did happen) it'll be interesting to see the drop off, i know a lot of people i play with ditching 14 for it.