XIV EW Job-Gameplay is Terrible... Why?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

The problem with healers pressing 1-1-1 over and over again is not that we're wearing out the "1" key on our keyboards. The problem is that one button is filler: it doesn't build up to anything, and it doesn't feel like it's finishing off some sequence of moves. It is as bland as bland can be.

Like healers, BLM also tries to maximize mashing one single button over and over again, but there is enough depth in managing timers and resources that it actually feels rewarding to press Fire IV repeatedly.

Unlike healers, the current SMN has more than one button in its damage rotation. That perhaps gives it a better tactile feel than healers, but conceptually, the job is no better because all of those buttons are basically filler.

---

I'm very aware of the fact that HEaler button spam is filler, but it doesn't take away from the fact that pressing 1 over and over again is a boring ass way to play any video game.

FPS games are boring all you do is press m1

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

FPS games are boring all you do is press m1

---

A rather reductive comparison. The frequency and what you are doing in-between pressing the same button makes a big difference.
A majority of playing Greatsword in Monster Hunter is just pressing the same button for your charged attack but that basically never gets old, because getting that button press off in the first place and having it connect isn't so simple, the same applies to FPS games.

FFXIV however is a tab target mmo where you almost always have an ability connect at least every 2.5 seconds, there is nothing stopping you from hitting that GCD besides the boss just becoming untargetable.
To illustrate what I mean I took one of my old logs from Abyssos on Warrior. I only counted Heavy Swing, Maim and Storm's Path and ignored Storm's Eye since that's where the consolidated combo would have to branch off (unless CBU3 decides to just outright remove Storm's Eye for maximum boredom).

I had 44 casts of Heavy Swing, 44 casts of Maim and 29 casts of Storm's Path for a total of 117 casts of just my basic 1-2-3 combo. At 2.5 GCD that is almost 5 minutes (4.87) spent on just those in a ~9 minute fight, which I would spend on nothing else but hitting the exact same button after combo consolidation. Yes, I did ignore oGCDs in this because defensive oGCDs on tanks are as boring as can be and WAR doesn't exactly have a lot of offensive oGCDs.


Funny side note. Of the remaining time I also spent 2 entire minutes in GCDs on just spamming Fell Cleave, shows you how much of a joke the design for this job is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

FPS games are boring all you do is press m1

---

Instructions unclear, mashed M1 and shot a hole through the wall. I think I'm missing critical information.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

FPS games are boring all you do is press m1

---

== Very accurate and fair comparison ==

https://i.ibb.co/SmQW7Hp/Just-One-Button.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

A rather reductive comparison. The frequency and what you are doing in-between pressing the same button makes a big difference.
A majority of playing Greatsword in Monster Hunter is just pressing the same button for your charged attack but that basically never gets old, because getting that button press off in the first place and having it connect isn't so simple, the same applies to FPS games.

FFXIV however is a tab target mmo where you almost always have an ability connect at least every 2.5 seconds, there is nothing stopping you from hitting that GCD besides the boss just becoming untargetable.
To illustrate what I mean I took one of my old logs from Abyssos on Warrior. I only counted Heavy Swing, Maim and Storm's Path and ignored Storm's Eye since that's where the consolidated combo would have to branch off (unless CBU3 decides to just outright remove Storm's Eye for maximum boredom).

I had 44 casts of Heavy Swing, 44 casts of Maim and 29 casts of Storm's Path for a total of 117 casts of just my basic 1-2-3 combo. At 2.5 GCD that is almost 5 minutes (4.87) spent on just those in a ~9 minute fight, which I would spend on nothing else but hitting the exact same button after combo consolidation. Yes, I did ignore oGCDs in this because defensive oGCDs on tanks are as boring as can be and WAR doesn't exactly have a lot of offensive oGCDs.


Funny side note. Of the remaining time I also spent 2 entire minutes in GCDs on just spamming Fell Cleave, shows you how much of a joke the design for this job is.

---

Yay I don't find spamming Fell Cleave back to back ground breaking Job Design. Same with Confiteor and my Hissatsu: Shinten or however many times Healers can spam Glare/Dosis/Malefic/Broil in a fight or not. It's not appealing. Square can do way better then this that's the disappointing part about it...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by strawberrycake

The WoL being all powerful means the game has to feel like this for the sake of a power fantasy that doesn't make sense given how heros of the same caliber in other FF games still HAD TO FIGHT WORLD MOBS THAT COULD KILL THEM.

We. Need. Our. World. To. Scale. Properly.

---

Whatever is in Palace of the Dead & Heaven on High seems more dangerous then Dead Ends. How can SHB Alliance Raids feel more lethal then anything proceeding it? Coupled with terribly simplistic Job-Designs... Makes it awfully hard to appreciate the pushover Story content. Like I care very little on how much I can take a Story serious anyways? like plot-holes, but when I go through it and its supposed to be dangerous and I go through it like I'm on a Disney tour... that doesn't help it, mhm

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Difficulty is indeed Subjective. After simulating the hypothetical compressed rotation for Samurai? It isn't harder or easier, but it feels terrible no matter how much more ( theoratically ) functional its supposed to be. I'd imagine it also homogenizes Job's further by copy pasting Combo Compression throughout our Roster of Jobs. Square could indeed make Jobs more intuitive with the space created through Combo Compression... Then again Square could have done this without Combo Compression, it is just never promised when we suggest to give up anything or when something is removed if we learned from History be it from Healers, to Melee, to w/e Square has done to MCH in SHB.

Using the argument of something being to easy and there for meaningless reminds me of that overused phrase... " It's just a button you press every-time ". Then again... in the grand scheme of things? we press every button every-time, and then we can argue everything away if we deem a button or feature to easy to execute. Look at my Job... 1/5th of my Gameplay is now spamming the same button over and over and that's just Samurai. Personally? I don't like this idea to be copy pasted of bashing the same button so frequently across my Kit even if the difficulty doesn't increase or not. We can look at healers on what they lost, which is the resemblance people make that we should learn from...

- Suggest to give up more in the hopes Square does something with it? Or...
- Suggest to give up nothing until Square give us something back first?

As for MCH specifically? I can't even recall how much they are hurting for hotbar-space compared to other Jobs to need something like Combo Compression. In my case? I can consolidate/fuse/merge at least 4 buttons on my Job while keeping my Gameplay / Rotation entirely the same before needing Combo Compression as the 1st go to solution so that Square can add... Well probably nothing again for 2 years i.e the last time they removed something.

At least we can agree that we want Job-Gameplay to improve, perhaps in different ways then we might agree. So... here's to hoping, mhm.

---

Well of course if we take SE's track record in the past couple of expansions and start making predictions, I'd also be extremely worried about what they could do if they compressed combos (aka, nothing in return). There is a clear divide between what I think is sane and logical into what could open possibilities, and what I expect SE to actually do. If anything, it's too depressing to think about because what's interesting has been removed already. I'm happy that some people still find meaning into pressing 1-2-3 combos, but I don't.

Also by the way, Samurai is not a 1-2-3 combo job, it's a branching combo job that has still kept this as a core of its toolkit, and it's completely not comparable to a 1-2-3 combo. It's the bare minimum of what every melee job used to have to play with.

Since you mention MCH on the other hand, there is literally nothing left to salvage on that job. It has a 1-2-3 combo filler that serves no purpose besides keeping you busy pressing the same loop until the next carpal tunnel hypercharge. MCH still has a lot of room left on hotbars for the very reason that ShB rework left it so barebones that 2 bars were enough to fit everything... Until they added chainsaw and brought back the wrench more recently. This on its own is telling of the sad state of the job considering not only there is a lot of room left, but the base combo could be compressed and we wouldn't even be losing anything... We would actually go back to a 2 hotbar job because that's essentially what the 1-2-3 combo is hiding.

I would trade MCH's Clean Shot combo for Blast Charge from PVP, but heat, and battery generation would have to be redesigned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by strawberrycake

Healers have everything thing to do with why pressing one button ad nauseam is obnoxious and horrid, asking any healer why pressing 1-1-1 over again for dps is the bane of their existence proves why a consolidated combo button being the norm would be ass and why Yoshida knows it would be ass. Secondly the burst meta mixed with having several unique burst phases made being able to up keep your combo(s) yes melee and tanks had multiple (and many struggled with mainting both let alone 1), as well as the mechanical design of each fight, doing hello world while keeping a perfect combo? Harder then most people give it credit for.

Also anything on a ranged dps is extremely long, they've all been gutted for dancer xD It would make melee and tanks unbearable to play and ruining this system further is just a huge no. And Yes, everything does revolve around the 2 min meta or you have no combat system to play in, literally, it's the math of HOW you do damage and HOW the fights are designed, without it you have no combat? This isn't something you can just not do. And if it is, you're allowed to not burst when the rest of your party does and see how far that gets you. You'll either be carried or you won't clear.

---

You're obviously not reading what I'm writing so I don't see the point in continuing this farce.

Maybe i'm not properly reading or understanding what you're writing either and it's clear we're probably talking about different things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Also by the way, Samurai is not a 1-2-3 combo job, it's a branching combo job that has still kept this as a core of its toolkit, and it's completely not comparable to a 1-2-3 combo. It's the bare minimum of what every melee job used to have to play with.

---

Oh ya you don't have to tell me. Some have suggested the PvP direction of Samurai to consolidate everything into a 1-1-1 onto Samurai PvE. Close friends also suggested this and you'll have to carefully read the suggestion...

- Delete Hakaze Jinpu Shifu
- Gekko Kasha Yukikaze is the new 1-2-3
- Then compress that into 1-1-1

Excessive pruning to make room for essentially zero suggestions as well with the notion that I would love it? because I get to cast Midare more, oh and speaking of Casting? then the suggestion to remove my Cast Times i.e Iaijutsu including yes my Midare... I am not joking, like I am not making this up... I hope you reading this Yona, this idea is stupid.

Even the other suggestion? to consolidate
- Jinpu turning into Gekko
- Shifu into Kasha
- Hakaze into Yukikaze

Turning 123-145-16 into 122-133-11 does make space, but it feels terrible. Probably cause I am fighting muscle memory. It functionally does make space for... there it is again, a big exceptionally large " if " to something new, mhm.

Even in PVP SAM retains an interpretation of its branching combos so that tells me that branching combos is crucial to the job's gameplay.

Some other thoughts on combo consolidation, sometimes the 'efficient' solution is the wrong solution. While condensing combos does potentially free up hotbar slots, it might ruin the job's gameplay. Removing Kaiten did free up some hotbar space, but it broke the Kenki gauge, and turned SAM, a job that's supposed to be about branching combos, and weaponskills with cast times into a Shinten spam job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

You're obviously not reading what I'm writing so I don't see the point in continuing this farce.

Maybe i'm not properly reading or understanding what you're writing either and it's clear we're probably talking about different things.

---

Here's the best way to explain it to you, you can consolidate a Job like BRD to mashing 1 over and over and it would probably work, but it would kill the feed back of a tank job or melee job, and it would make playing a job like BLM disgusting, not all jobs do well in consolidation, adding more wouldn;t fix issues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Since you mention MCH on the other hand, there is literally nothing left to salvage on that job. It has a 1-2-3 combo filler that serves no purpose besides keeping you busy pressing the same loop until the next carpal tunnel hypercharge. MCH still has a lot of room left on hotbars for the very reason that ShB rework left it so barebones that 2 bars were enough to fit everything... Until they added chainsaw and brought back the wrench more recently. This on its own is telling of the sad state of the job considering not only there is a lot of room left, but the base combo could be compressed and we wouldn't even be losing anything... We would actually go back to a 2 hotbar job because that's essentially what the 1-2-3 combo is hiding.

---

This is unique to ranged physical specificaly because SE doesn't even know what they want to do with BRD and MCH, they've both been gutted for DNC and thats been the consensus for a while now. Also most people, including myself don't even know why they reworked MCH the way they did due to it only needing around 3 more seconds on Wildfire. And in the end, all the simplicity and boringness, and easiness everyones tired of in content, all leads back to the change of when we burst in content. This wasn't an issue before EW, and is now an issue because of the one change that happned in EW, which is the 2 min burst system/meta.

So your point about adding in Job complexity by consolidating buttons and adding more, only stands because OF the 2 min meta existing, if it didn;t and we had the old system, no one would be having these complaints.

It's that simple.

Gonna be a broken record, but the biggest shakeup to BRD, and MCH's gameplay would be to add PVP style walking casts. Like, they are far from BLM level of casting, but they're still casts so managing instant weaponskills would become a point of complexity.

I'd be fine with Blast Charge on MCH. I think if the Ammo mechanic were to return to MCH in a reworked fashion it could create some interesting interactions. I know people are still apprehensive to the idea of bow mage though, so I won't speak for BRD. (Powerful Shot blows Burst Shot out of the water and it's not even close, though.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by strawberrycake

And in the end, all the simplicity and boringness, and easiness everyones tired of in content, all leads back to the change of when we burst in content. This wasn't an issue before EW, and is now an issue because of the one change that happned in EW, which is the 2 min burst system/meta.

---

I'd argue it was absolutely already a creeping problem in Shadowbringers, but limited almost entirely to tanks (really only Warrior and Dark Knight), healers and the phys ranged that weren't dancer.
Endwalker just followed ShB's awful design philosophy even further and amplified it tenfold by making everything some kind of divisor for 120 seconds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

I'd argue it was absolutely already a creeping problem in Shadowbringers, but limited almost entirely to tanks (really only Warrior and Dark Knight), healers and the phys ranged that weren't dancer.
Endwalker just followed ShB's awful design philosophy even further and amplified it tenfold by making everything some kind of divisor for 120 seconds.

---

Yeah I feel like things weren't bad, and could have been fixes with some minor tweaking, and some things being made more intuitive, but instead of adding in tutorials and better explinations we just, gutted it all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by strawberrycake

Here's the best way to explain it to you, you can consolidate a Job like BRD to mashing 1 over and over and it would probably work, but it would kill the feed back of a tank job or melee job, and it would make playing a job like BLM disgusting, not all jobs do well in consolidation, adding more wouldn;t fix issues.

---

What does bard or black mage have to do with a 1-2-3 combo? What are you talking about? Making bard (the only remaining 100% proc job in the game) a 1 button spamm would be totally stupid. BLM I don't even want to know how that would even be possible anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by strawberrycake

Also most people, including myself don't even know why they reworked MCH the way they did due to it only needing around 3 more seconds on Wildfire.

---

Adding 3s on wildfire wouldnt have fixed the issue. Stacks would however, and it's been proposed since forever back in SB already, but they only decided to finally cave in this expansion. As a reminder, ShB/EW MCH, as bland as it is, was still as sensitive if not more so to latency problems than SB MCH was, because SB MCH had the luxury of having a functional high ping rotation, unlike current MCH. Fortunately, the stacks on HC we have now fixed the issue.

Also, WF wasn't even the problem in SB, the overheat window was.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by strawberrycake

And in the end, all the simplicity and boringness, and easiness everyones tired of in content, all leads back to the change of when we burst in content. This wasn't an issue before EW, and is now an issue because of the one change that happned in EW, which is the 2 min burst system/meta.

So your point about adding in Job complexity by consolidating buttons and adding more, only stands because OF the 2 min meta existing, if it didn;t and we had the old system, no one would be having these complaints.

It's that simple.

---

Are you still replying to me here? We already bursted every 2min except for tanks and bard/blm. MCH sure bursted every 2min as well, even when it looped on a 60s or 60-120s burst pattern (are we even still talking about mch??). I sure as hell was already furious in shb with the 1-2-3 combo on mch. We even had less buttons than we have today on top of it.

Again, what does the 2min burst meta have to do with combos? Aren't you the one trolling at this point? Why do you keep systematically going back to the 2min meta?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

I'd argue it was absolutely already a creeping problem in Shadowbringers, but limited almost entirely to tanks (really only Warrior and Dark Knight), healers and the phys ranged that weren't dancer.
Endwalker just followed ShB's awful design philosophy even further and amplified it tenfold by making everything some kind of divisor for 120 seconds.

---

Agreed, the biggest changes happened in SHB, not in EW. EW just compounded on the issue by doubling down on the design. People are only waking up now, but it's been bad for more than 5 years already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

What does bard or black mage have to do with a 1-2-3 combo? What are you talking about? Making bard (the only remaining 100% proc job in the game) a 1 button spamm would be totally stupid. BLM I don't even want to know how that would even be possible anyway.




Adding 3s on wildfire wouldnt have fixed the issue. Stacks would however, and it's been proposed since forever back in SB already, but they only decided to finally cave in this expansion. As a reminder, ShB/EW MCH, as bland as it is, was still as sensitive if not more so to latency problems than SB MCH was, because SB MCH had the luxury of having a functional high ping rotation, unlike current MCH. Fortunately, the stacks on HC we have now fixed the issue.

Also, WF wasn't even the problem in SB, the overheat window was.



Are you still replying to me here? We already bursted every 2min except for tanks and bard/blm. MCH sure bursted every 2min as well, even when it looped on a 60s or 60-120s burst pattern (are we even still talking about mch??). I sure as hell was already furious in shb with the 1-2-3 combo on mch. We even had less buttons than we have today on top of it.

Again, what does the 2min burst meta have to do with combos? Aren't you the one trolling at this point? Why do you keep systematically going back to the 2min meta?

---

But we didn't burst every two min in ShB, that didn;t happen until EW. But if you wanna live in a world where consolidated combos work(they won't) then sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by strawberrycake

But we didn't burst every two min in ShB, that didn;t happen until EW. But if you wanna live in a world where consolidated combos work(they won't) then sure.

---

They would absolutely work for all jobs that only have a single combo (like Dark Knight for example) because they always press 1-2-3 in that exact order already anyway.

I wouldn't be a fan of it because, as I explained before, I find pressing the exact same button for 50+% of a fight extremely boring, hell even with our current split combos it is already incredibly boring when you spend 45 seconds every minute just spamming your filler.

The question isn't "Would they work on some jobs?" but "Would they actually improve gameplay?".
You'd have to put your trust into the devs actually adding meaningful additions with the button space created from consolidating combos, trust I certainly don't have after 5 years of bad job design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by strawberrycake

But we didn't burst every two min in ShB, that didn;t happen until EW. But if you wanna live in a world where consolidated combos work(they won't) then sure.

---

Never said I wanted to live in such a world and you're just putting words in my mouth. I merely stated that it can open for more possibilities of potentially interesting things than keeping those slots busy for a 1-2-3 stupid combo that does literally nothing skillful more than a 1-1-1 that changes visuals and potency at every attack. It's just an option that I find viable, if executed properly.

We bursted every two minutes in ShB for most jobs already for the simple reason that a lot of jobs either bursted every 120s already, or that the other third bursted every 60s ANYWAY (60s times 2 = 120s). Is your point about the few odd jobs that did every 90s, and some 180s raid wides that have even less to do about the design of combos?

I still fail to see what this has to do with how combos are designed whatsoever but okay.

This made me snort and laugh...

So, in the last major patch for Genshin Impact, we got a new zone called Chanyu Vale, and in that zone is a side quest that takes you through what is basically this ancient armory for a famous clan that has been in power for centuries. Inside that zone, there's a combat challenge you can do to earn some chests that features AOE indicators that feel familiar to something like FFXIV, or SWTOR. That fight made an appearance in this Genshin streamer's video today. You can see the segment here.

The reason I bring this up is because you don't normally see this type of thing in Genshin, and she casually refers to these types of mechanics as "baby mode." It just makes me laugh because I feel like if that same attack pattern were in FFXIV in like a dungeon boss, we'd hear people complain about how hard it was. Granted Genshin does play differently, but having any more than like 2 AOE indicators at a time suddenly gets people accusing the fight of being too "dark souls."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

( snip ) The reason I bring this up is because you don't normally see this type of thing in Genshin, and she casually refers to these types of mechanics as "baby mode." It just makes me laugh because I feel like if that same attack pattern were in FFXIV in like a dungeon boss, we'd hear people complain about how hard it was. Granted Genshin does play differently, but having any more than like 2 AOE indicators at a time suddenly gets people accusing the fight of being too "dark souls."

---

Yay... Majority of the Unskippable/Roulette/MSQ/Openworld - Casual Content is deliberately not made exciting, with the supposed benefit of player-friendliness. It comes at the cost of excitement. Truly understandable to have pacing for 1st-Time-MSQ going through the story without to many bumps or roadblocks? But this is almost an insult at our skill-level, worse if we have to ever revisit it. Coupled with dull Job-Designs equals extra boring + activity not having it made worth doing other then that feeling of " This is the best way to conveniently get x or to level up x "

One good example comparison I had last night vs EW dungeons was the " Ixion Fate " on Dynamis. We could only gather 12+/- Players at 3 AM. We also started late, creating an actual DPS check on the 8 min that was left on it before it despawned. Boss was beefy in HP, mechanics were not the hardest, but punishing if you decided to greed it. With 3% left to go? we failed... We could have DC traveled and relied on a better time for more players? but what the failure did more is a sense of knowing this wasn't our best... and we can do better next time. I miss this in Endwalker. I don't get a sense of any of this, in fact? Square wants to make it so lazy that they add Duty Support so we can not play the game. How can a roided sparky Pony do better... all the way from freaking Stormblood vs the climactic ending of the story arc's PvE Dungeons... at max level I just had a different expectation I guess. I find this sad, mhm.

Sure don't make it harder for the sake of making it as hard as possible? but don't create it to the point we players can Afk most of it through Duty Support... that's just something else.

I honestly can't understand why they made duty support function on its own (provided one plays dps) without input from the player beyond moving forward.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

I honestly can't understand why they made duty support function on its own (provided one plays dps) without input from the player beyond moving forward.

---

A closer look at the mandatory MSQ to review what players can or likely will learn from its un-skippable PVE combat or difficulty worth mentioning as overcoming any level of stress as a potential to improve a player...

ARR - Nothing valuable to note. Story/Dungeons/Guildhests teaches nothing beyond " Press some Buttons ". Novice Hall adds nothing either. Job Quests aren't tailored either beyond go to point A and do/kill stuff at point B. Un-skippable Alliance Raid boils down to Monkey- See, Monkey-Do on their 1st run through.

HW - Aurum Vale notable soft wall for very inexperienced Tanks/Healers/MMO players. Just repeated Formula.

SB - Still teaching nothing about the expended Job Kits. Facing Zenos in Ala Mhigo perhaps the only likely Enrage up until now that players might fail.

SHB - Dungeon Mobs are beefy here. Square not directly teaching proper rotations is at the detriment of new)players time and patience. Facing Ran'jit as forced GNB Thancred teaches nothing proper.

EW - I had to actually explain Doom mechanics in Dead Ends, Troia and Lunar Subteranne multiple times with random parties. EW does RP force you to play other jobs while teaching again nothing & still repeated formula.
Note: Extra Trials / (Alliance)Raids / Eureka / Bojza / Deep Dungeon are all skippable content

Summary: Mandatory content teaches players nothing directly.

- Skills
- Rotation
- Slide Casting
- Uptime
- Positionals
- Mitigation
- Weaving / Clipping
- Understanding Debuffs
- Snapshots

Its not even about handholding either or spoon-feeding players on what to do at every given opportunity, not to give the wrong idea... rather about teaching players fundamentals/concepts/basics that are not even suggestively hinted to do throughout the MSQ... With near no clear positive feedback on rather or not players do anything correctly or better. Square expecting players to read Tool-Tips? is giving that idea to much credit. Don't Die or Die as much as you want while learning nothing is good enough to clear mandatory content, no matter how detrimental this is towards not encouraging players to improve to any degree -> " That = The Standard "

At least Yoshi-P recognizes that a completely stress-free game? comes at the cost of excitement. I see it coming at the cost of players who desire everything to be made dumber & easier as that's the standard they are accustomed to - Job Designs incl. Forget Combo-Compression, we have Duty Support so you don't need to press Buttons at all. Ironically? Our WoL lore-wise self-improves through overcoming adversity, hardships and challenges... the complete opposite of the bar Square sets for players, mhm.

With Yoshida admitting he's went overboard and acknowledging he needs to make the game feel more MMO like, admiting they went overboard with how bosses were made this expansion, and the content feeling too samey, I wonder how DT will be.

I'm expecting buff/burst standardization to mostly stay, but maybe some buffs get nerfed or removed. What I really hope they do is incorporate the ideas that were explored in pvp. To me, the pvp jobs uncovered the 'one small change' to a job that can have the most impact on its gameplay.

Unironically, pvp is the way to go. I'm kinda copiuming for pvp LBs being the lvl100 capstone skills of DT, especially if they consider alternative ways for 8.0 progression later down the road.