So you're telling me..

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Physical range should always be below magical range because they have 100% free movement. Red mage has nowhere near the mobility of physical range.

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Okay.. which means they are still useless :3 good to know ty.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Damage buffs come with the biggest penalty to damage. That's how it's always worked in this game. The more damage support you provide, the weaker your personal damage will be.

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sorry I was assuming we're using rDPS for this tier thing
at least in my opinion after the damage buffs have been taken into account buffing the raid, DRG and NIN should come out on top by a few 2 digit numbers or so ahead of monk and RPR who have mantra and AC and then SAM #1

It is not my opinion but observation from previous expansions:
It will be probably samurai = black mage > "utility" jobs gets random dps buff or nerf this is random I guess?
I have no idea what will they do or what they should do.. but they usually do same thing at every expansion :3

I think reaper needs a bit of potency decrease on their basic 123 combo and arcane circle's duration should be reduced. 20s is too much for the personal damage they bring. 10s would be a lot more balanced.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

dragoon is the melee with the most support damage buffs and trick attack is the still the biggest damage increase in the game. There's a reason why the devs keep ninja as the weakest melee.

Even if you argue reaper's arcane circle is on par with battle litany, dragoon can still partner up with somebody else to increase their damage by 5%. It's like a weaker dance partner since it's not permanent but still provides a good boost..
Trick attack is a 5% damage increase to the entire party (regardless how far apart they are) with a much better uptime than arcane circle.

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And yet Ninja's raid and personal DPS are considerably lower than Reapers, and it's long been obvious that Trick Attack is not necessary, much less desired, by most statics short of high end raid teams that actually can take full advantage of TA with the rest of their team. It's the least played job in the entire game, provides less DPS than any other melee, requires more apm than most other jobs to provide mediocre damage, and is competing with all of the ranged jobs for best of the worst in terms of output. And even for average groups in party finder/the rest of us, why bother taking a Ninja when a Reaper contributes more? Why bother taking a Ninja when a Monk contributes more? Why bother with a Ninja when a Red Mage offers better utility and damage? Hell, even despite their lower DPS across the board, a Summoner can still offer a rez to a struggling group or a group looking to prog even if it's ugly and filled with deaths throughout the encounter.

Trick Attack is not strong enough as a raid buff to justify Ninja's current standing, much less the effort the job demands to get the most out of it compared to a freestyle Reaper or Samurai, for a worse result overall. It's more than obvious that players across the board feel the same, which is why comparatively few Ninjas are being taken into the existing endgame.

There have been threads on these boards in the past with NIN players asking for TA to be removed from the game if it meant their personal output would increase. There is a growing discontent among some of those players that they have apparently been balanced around a buff that isn't even necessary for any raid, at any skill level, to succeed. Something has got to give in terms of the job's design, because players are already giving up on it for greener and more personally satisfying pastures.

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Originally Posted by Scuoll

Not sure if you are still participating or not since you are clearly still here, but why would it be a bad thing if the job's performance were closer? I really dont get it, if you just want them not to listen because you are benefitting from current imbalance, its just a stupid idea, if they got better at balancing which is 10000% doable since all jobs are really similar design wise and there are no weird interactions like in wow with legendaries/trinkets/whatever, the game would just be better and there wouldnt be much need to have these discussions.

For what its worth i have read opinions similar to those echoed in these threads in these discords or elsewhere, i even sometimes read reaper loung on the balance discord andwhile there are people that think its balanced, there are also definitely people saying stuff like that arcane crest is overpowered especially because no other melee has something like it, and there are people that think its overtuned damage wise, and that's like the most rpr biased place i can think of, rightly so,nothing wrong with it.

What is so wrong about pointing out current imbalance you should dismiss the whole issue? genuinely dont get it

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I’m not benefitting from anything. I play all melee, and I’ve main’d every one of them at various points all the way back to HW. Reaper is just the one I’m currently focusing on.

I don’t particularly think there is a crushing imbalance between the melee. Using all fights in Panda normal at the 95 and 99 bracket. There is a 4-5% difference in the rDPS of Dragoon and Reaper. 4-5%. There is a 2-3% difference between the rDPS of Reaper and Samurai. 2-3%. I didn’t bother do do monk, but its spread will be similar to Reaper. Ninja is the only outlier that falls outside of 5%, but even then it’s only 6%.

So, tell me again how reaper is massively outperforming the other melee? How monk is? The way some people (not you) are screeching on this thread, you’d think the sky was falling. It’s just not so. I don’t think I’ve ever seen tuning be this tight at release for melee. Does that mean that all is good and there don’t need to be adjustments? No, and I never said that there didn’t need to be. There will be adjustments, and historically SE does not nerf nearly as much as they buff.

Dragoon and Ninja both need to be tuned upwards. And imo, the lowest melee should be 2-3% from the top melee. 2-3%. Who that top and who that bottom is going to wind up being remains to be seen.

However, saying reaper should be at whatever hierarchically position on the charts because of xyz is a matter of opinion. That goes for the rest of the melee as well. Full Stop.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

I’m not benefitting from anything. I play all melee, and I’ve main’d every one of them at various points all the way back to HW. Reaper is just the one I’m currently focusing on.

I don’t particularly think there is a crushing imbalance between the melee. Using all fights in Panda normal at the 95 and 99 bracket. There is a 4-5% difference in the rDPS of Dragoon and Reaper. 4-5%. There is a 2-3% difference between the rDPS of Reaper and Samurai. 2-3%. I didn’t bother do do monk, but its spread will be similar to Reaper. Ninja is the only outlier that falls outside of 5%, but even then it’s only 6%.

So, tell me again how reaper is massively outperforming the other melee?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE8yMWW0A4c

I no longer see the point of continued arguing, fact is, regardless of personal opinion the tuning will happen tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

And yet Ninja's raid and personal DPS are considerably lower than Reapers

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Wtb 10% Trick Attack back.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

I think reaper's damage is a bit too high. Good samurais should always beat them.

I feel dps damage wise should be: samurai > monk = reaper > dragoon > ninja = black mage> summoner > red mage > machinist > bard > dancer

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https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...71/892/6b9.jpg

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...71/892/6b9.jpg

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There's this idea in MMO's that melee should deal higher damage because they put themselves more at risk.
I don't actually think that's true in FFXIV at least not nowadays.
Melee can for the most part do mechanics and keep dps:ing with no trouble, mechanics affect BLM more than others.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...71/892/6b9.jpg

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Not gonna lie, this had me rollin' lmfao

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...71/892/6b9.jpg

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Don't worry, they can justify the low damage by giving black mage some utility. Hmm, maybe some kind of skill that lets them transfer mana from their character to another character. Maybe they could call it manashift? That would be neat, very unique utility, definitely worth the tradeoff.

And let the salt ensue.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

And let the salt ensue.

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You lost 50 potency on the heal, which is honestly the right call. A DPS shouldn't have a heal button that is stronger than any one button on a dedicated healer.

I see you on The Balance, lmao.

Kinda funky that RPR could out aoe heal my Fairy's Whispering Dawn, and its on a shorter cooldown. O_o

Frankly it needs dmg a tiny bit below SAM & MNK to be balanced.

Good to see DRG & NIN got some nice buffs though.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

And let the salt ensue.

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Oh there you are, Mr. "AC is perfectly balanced" proceeds to get slapped with a 50% nerf lmao

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

Oh there you are, Mr. "AC is perfectly balanced" proceeds to get slapped with a 50% nerf lmao

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Oh no, my regen is gone. Reaper is broken now, unplayable job! They’ve gone too far and nerfed the one thing zero reapers cared about and zero healer utilised. However will we raid in savage

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

Oh no, my regen is gone. Reaper is broken now, unplayable job! They’ve gone too far and nerfed the one thing zero reapers cared about and zero healer utilised. However will we raid in savage

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you don't even make sense

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

you don't even make sense

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It’s called sarcasm. You among many have pushed and pushed for a nerf of something zero reapers cared about. I rather doubt anyone used it for its regen and only used it to greed uptime or if they messed up. This “nerf” I welcome it. Enjoy playing your buffed dragoon or whatever you play. I hope this “nerf” stops you crying on the forums for 30 pages more

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

It’s called sarcasm. You among many have pushed and pushed for a nerf of something zero reapers cared about. I rather doubt anyone used it for its regen and only used it to greed uptime or if they messed up. This “nerf” I welcome it. Enjoy playing your buffed dragoon or whatever you play. I hope this “nerf” stops you crying on the forums for 30 pages more

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30 pages?
we still got patch 6.1 to discuss
if you didn't care about the nerf then why are you so bothered by it?

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

Oh there you are, Mr. "AC is perfectly balanced" proceeds to get slapped with a 50% nerf lmao

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yes, you got me. I overplayed my trolling hand. I'll take the 50% nerf on regen to keep the CD and an indirect buff from dancer skills turning into weaponskills. Congrats on potency buffs. Samurai are basically ranged now. Oh the salt...

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

30 pages?
we still got patch 6.1 to discuss
if you didn't care about the nerf then why are you so bothered by it?

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You have fun with that. Keep crying for 30 more pages. I’m gonna go raid savage with my reaper :) since I’m a reaper ill farm my own popcorn and read your salty tears about how reaper is doing too much damage for your liking

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

You have fun with that. Keep crying for 30 more pages. I’m gonna go raid savage with my reaper :) since I’m a reaper ill farm my own popcorn and read your salty tears about how reaper is doing too much damage for your liking

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you can't eat popcorn and angrypost at the same time

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

you can't eat popcorn and angrypost at the same time

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if you have talk to text you can

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

You have fun with that. Keep crying for 30 more pages. I’m gonna go raid savage with my reaper :) since I’m a reaper ill farm my own popcorn and read your salty tears about how reaper is doing too much damage for your liking

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Real shame that you're just abandoning your Ninja "main" like this, they even got some seriously needed buffs :(

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

Real shame that you're just abandoning your Ninja "main" like this, they even got some seriously needed buffs :(

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I abandoned ninja the instant they announced reaper however many moons ago. The only thing that would stop be play reaper would be if it wasn’t fun, played like crap and was in the gutter with dps. Yes even if it’s too dps and wasn’t fun I’d not play it. Fortunately for me, it’s great fun eh.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

Real shame that you're just abandoning your Ninja "main" like this, they even got some seriously needed buffs :(

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You’re quite right however it did get some serious needed QoL and buffs. And here’s the thing, no one would argue against say drg, ninja, blm, sam getting buffs. Probs needed tbh. However it’s this constant baying for reapers blood that’s a little… well, it’s over now isn’t it

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

You’re quite right however it did get some serious needed QoL and buffs. And here’s the thing, no one would argue against say drg, ninja, blm, sam getting buffs. Probs needed tbh. However it’s this constant baying for reapers blood that’s a little… well, it’s over now isn’t it

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Reaper needs another buff. Samurai is entirely too close to it. They just got an increase on the range of the Iaijustu!

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

You lost 50 potency on the heal, which is honestly the right call.

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Reapers heal more with Bloodbath tho. So this nerf ain't nothing to worry about. Reaper mains such as myself got off easy.

I do appreciate the Phoenix buffs on SMN tho.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Reapers heal more with Bloodbath tho. So this nerf ain't nothing to worry about. Reaper mains such as myself got off easy.

I do appreciate the Phoenix buffs on SMN tho.

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Their hot affects everybody around them. In full parties grouped up, it was a lot of extra heals.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Their hot affects everybody around them. In full parties grouped up, it was a lot of extra heals.

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I really don't think it's going to affect much at 50 potency loss. If anything it's going to give healers something to heal which is warranted.

I think the nerf is reasonable given that being tickled pops the shield. 50 potency heals are very reasonable for a 30s CD.

Well...
No dps nerf...
At least not this patch but it's still a wtf imo.
Their damage is still way too high.

Overall I am decently happy with the NIN changes but we'll also have to see the numbers.
And it's me also assuming that we still got two Raiju casts per Raiton, which the patch notes actually make it seem like we'll only have one <_<.
But I am hoping that's a typo...

I really wonder if 560 Raiju will be enough tho.

Everyone expect Arcane Circle to be nerf'd, but no, it's Crest nerf lol. That thing wasn't even needed to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Miziliti

Everyone expect Arcane Circle to be nerf'd

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This is the first I've ever heard of it. And that would be a absurd thing to do with how much of a hard-on players have for raid buffs.

I think Reaper mains were expecting potency nerfs because we all feel our damage is overtuned and could do with a slight potency nerf.

Arcane Crest comes as a surprise because we didn't even consider it for nerf city. And seems more as a way to appease healers for not having enough to heal unless they have a DRK in the party.

Early level FATES Reaper is bonkers, mid level damage is high all the way until endgame meanwhile to come out on top Samurai/BLM have to bring their A game to overtake a decent Reaper and Ninjas/DRGs as well as say MCH's are having to do 3-4 times the work for half or 2/3 the damage a Reaper can dish out. Kinda ridiculous.

And Harpe is just ridiculous IMO it's doing dbl to triple damage as opposed to any other ranged attack from the other melees.

So I can really see why other Melees are all "yo this class is some bullshit".

At least Harpe doesn't generate gauge on top of its potency and range, then I'm sure everyone would be doing a lot more than just crying for a nerf to Rpr or buffs to other jobs to close the gap up more.

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Originally Posted by Maverick_Haas

I suspect either DNC will get a buff or RPR will see a slight nerf, probably 100 -> 50 potency if I had to guess.

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Seems I was right.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

At least Harpe doesn't generate gauge on top of its potency and range, then I'm sure everyone would be doing a lot more than just crying for a nerf to Rpr or buffs to other jobs to close the gap up more.

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People can look at it either way they want, either other dps need a buff or RPR needs a nerf.
Personally I don't think it's healthy to just buff buff buff.
It's a psychological thing tho people don't like seeing what they play get nerfed even if the effect is the same if others get buffed instead.

But imo potencies are already too high and make so much content into a joke I'd rather see nerfs than buffs for the most part to level things out.

Simple way to nerf Reaper damage is to flatout remove Heavy Thr- I mean Death's Design. Easy fix honestly.

I don't disagree. I enjoy playing Rpr, and with how it is currently you can mess up a little bit and still remain up there as far as damage output. I do expect it will see a nerf, even if it is just a little one when it comes to skill damage. However, there are some jobs that do clearly need some potency buffs as well. Then again, I've gotten used to SE royally messing up some jobs and taking a good 2-3 months if not longer to actually fix them without breaking something else.