6.0 Story Speculations

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

The question was, "Has the sundering caused any instability or harm?" The answers is no,

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I would say that causing billions of deaths and both mentally and physically crippling every living thing in existence counts as doing harm.
And if I'm reading that Q&A correctly they've just said outright that it rendered the star unstable. We may not know the specifics, but apparently that is the case.

Lahabrea said in the climax of A Realm Reborn that there was a growing aetheric imbalance that was threatening the planet; he also laid the blame for this on Hydaelyn. Mostly written off as the ramblings of a madman at the time, but now...

... regardless of what's been said, by either Yoshi-P or Lahabrea, we have no evidence of this imbalance or instability. The only shown imbalances and instabilities are those that led to Rejoinings, which were engineered by the Ascians, and the Final Days and its recreation by Fandaniel, neither of which have anything to do with Hydaelyn.

I'm still of like mind that while Zodiark was able to repair the damage done by the Final Days he didn't actually fix the issue; he cured the symptoms, not the cause. From what we've been told the Convocation (whether due to tempering or just because they thought it best) decided to just necromance the sacrifices to him and go back to the good ol' days. Obvs not a great solution.

Hydaelyn's sundering reduced the longevity and power of everything, but that doesn't mean their lives are no longer worth living. The Ascians may see them as "lesser," but none of the original sundered (or at this point unsundered) beings are left; to those born into the world as it is now it's all they've ever known, and their lives are surely worth living, non? (Even then the Future Ironworks was able to do in 100 years what the Ascians couldn't figure out how to do in over 12,000. Mortality may be a weakness, but it's also a strength.)

To the Edge points out in its lyrics how, for all their grandstanding, deep down the Ascians are really no different from the mortals they abhor. They may have been done a grave injustice but that doesn't make it acceptable for them to visit the same injustice upon others thirteenfold.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I would say that causing billions of deaths and both mentally and physically crippling every living thing in existence counts as doing harm.
And if I'm reading that Q&A correctly they've just said outright that it rendered the star unstable. We may not know the specifics, but apparently that is the case.

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1: We don't even know how many people were left alive when the sundering happened, given the level of destruction we witness during the above planet section of Amaurot, in addition to the sacrifices they needed to make I don't see it as billions, unless you're counting the fact that the sundered can now die in that total.
2: Crippling implies a drastic or deep debilitating state, while we no long have the power or immorality they had, we seem perfectly capable on an intellectual level matching them and physically we can move around just as they do and cast magic on a lesser scale to them, hardly crippling, simply weaker like I stated.

As for the devs saying it was unstable, that doesn't matter if they don't show it in game, the devs also said we'd never get flying in ARR, yet here we are, plans change, until it's in the game it's not part of the story, as far as the characters in the world can see and the world itself reflects, the sundering hasn't done anything to make it unstable, now in 5.55 they could literally reveal that the sundering has made the world unstable in some way, but right now, at this moment it hasn't.

Also using the Garlean's strife is kind of a poor example given while they were persecuted for their lack of aether manipulation, their rise into a superpower and causing war and suffering was fully orchestrated outside of their control.

The Ascian's are fine villain's with a relatable motivation, I can understand what it would be like to be ripped away from someone I loved and feeling a burning desire to get them back I can understand wanting to do anything to "right that wrong" I wouldn't kill billions for centuries to do it just because "I don't think their alive" or at least, not alive by my standards. Because until the writers show any clear evidence the sundering has or is causing instability, that's all the Ascian's have.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

1: We don't even know how many people were left alive when the sundering happened, given the level of destruction we witness during the above planet section of Amaurot, in addition to the sacrifices they needed to make I don't see it as billions, unless you're counting the fact that the sundered can now die in that total.
2: Crippling implies a drastic or deep debilitating state, while we no long have the power or immorality they had, we seem perfectly capable on an intellectual level matching them and physically we can move around just as they do and cast magic on a lesser scale to them, hardly crippling, simply weaker like I stated.

As for the devs saying it was unstable, that doesn't matter if they don't show it in game, the devs also said we'd never get flying in ARR, yet here we are, plans change, until it's in the game it's not part of the story, as far as the characters in the world can see and the world itself reflects, the sundering hasn't done anything to make it unstable, now in 5.55 they could literally reveal that the sundering has made the world unstable in some way, but right now, at this moment it hasn't.

Also using the Garlean's strife is kind of a poor example given while they were persecuted for their lack of aether manipulation, their rise into a superpower and causing war and suffering was fully orchestrated outside of their control.

The Ascian's are fine villain's with a relatable motivation, I can understand what it would be like to be ripped away from someone I loved and feeling a burning desire to get them back I can understand wanting to do anything to "right that wrong" I wouldn't kill billions for centuries to do it just because "I don't think their alive" or at least, not alive by my standards. Because until the writers show any clear evidence the sundering has or is causing instability, that's all the Ascian's have.

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It's almost like we dont know the proper instability yet because its being kept a secret by Hydaelyn, as Elidibus surmises, everyones forgetting just as she intended. If the devs say its true, its true. You can go ahead and come up with false assumptions to benefit your way of thinking,but at the end of the day the devs decide whats what. "Until its in the game its not part of the story" is such a flawed way of thinking but ill leave you to that i guess.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It's almost like we dont know the proper instability yet because its being kept a secret by Hydaelyn, as Elidibus surmises, everyones forgetting just as she intended. If the devs say its true, its true. You can go ahead and come up with false assumptions to benefit your way of thinking,but at the end of the day the devs decide whats what. "Until its in the game its not part of the story" is such a flawed way of thinking but ill leave you to that i guess.

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Yet the same logic is applied to Hydaelyn. "Maybe she's doing this or that! She's up to something!" Or Zodiark "He's evil!" "But he hasn't done anything y-" "EEEEVILLL!!" Yes the devs decide, but they've also been misinterpreted or straight up changed things in the past, which is why making note of what they say is fine, but simply going "they said it, it's fact" is flawed. Where is the instability? What am I supposed to do with that information? Until it's in the game they can change their minds, or do something else entirely and none of the characters the WoL included can really work with "but the devs told me so!" The echo is powerful, not that powerful as for Elidibus his memory wasn't exactly whole and he was our enemy so I'm not going to take everything he said word for word

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I would say that causing billions of deaths and both mentally and physically crippling every living thing in existence counts as doing harm.
And if I'm reading that Q&A correctly they've just said outright that it rendered the star unstable. We may not know the specifics, but apparently that is the case.

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Regardless, the lives on the stars have a say on whether they want to be sacrificed or not

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

Yet the same logic is applied to Hydaelyn. "Maybe she's doing this or that! She's up to something!" Or Zodiark "He's evil!" "But he hasn't done anything y-" "EEEEVILLL!!" Yes the devs decide, but they've also been misinterpreted or straight up changed things in the past, which is why making note of what they say is fine, but simply going "they said it, it's fact" is flawed. Where is the instability? What am I supposed to do with that information? Until it's in the game they can change their minds, or do something else entirely and none of the characters the WoL included can really work with "but the devs told me so!" The echo is powerful, not that powerful as for Elidibus his memory wasn't exactly whole and he was our enemy so I'm not going to take everything he said word for word

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He literally said it by himself in his own monologue. What does him being our enemy have to do with it, it was his own thoughts. Not only that but we also have Lahabrea’s speech from Prae as well. Those tie together with the QnA dev info. That isn’t a coincidence lmao theyve clearly had it planned for a long time.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

No evidence that sundering hurt anything? Look at soul density. Look at the difference in potential of the sundered individuals. Their loss of memories of who they once were. The lives ended due to mortal illnesses and age. Are you serious?

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Thing is though, mortality has its own perks. Ingenuity, invention, the desire to strive for a better world even though you may never see it. .. those are all traits that came about because the races became mortal. Prior to that, the thirst for invention and adventure was a rare trait, limited to Azem so far as we know. If you have eternity, why would you have the pressure and ambition to change things for the future?

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

unless you're counting the fact that the sundered can now die in that total.

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Yes.

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Crippling implies a drastic or deep debilitating state, while we no long have the power or immorality they had, we seem perfectly capable on an intellectual level matching them and physically we can move around just as they do and cast magic on a lesser scale to them, hardly crippling, simply weaker like I stated.

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Unlike the Ancients, mortals don't normally posses the Echo, which allows people to understand each other's souls on an intrinsic level. It's as though they've had one of their senses destroyed.
Additionally I would say that cutting someone's lifespan down by 99% and physically reducing them to a fraction of their former stature counts as crippling them.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

Regardless, the lives on the stars have a say on whether they want to be sacrificed or not

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Which Venat evidently did not take into consideration when sundering all of them regardless of their wishes.

I'm starting to question why Hydaelyn, a being who was supposedly summoned in order to preserve the new lives on the star even possessed the ability to sunder the world in the first place.

It doesn't really seem to align with her purpose, unlike...say, Alexander's ability to travel through time, which fit with its intended purpose of creating an ideal world by enabling it to right past wrongs...or at least it would've had the thing not been simply too powerful to act without draining excessive amount of aether.

For that matter, I'm also questioning if Zodiark seemingly being tied to the resurgence of the Final Days might simply be because the Source simply isn't in a state to withstand the presence of an active primal as powerful as he is. Even fractured, he's liable to be several magnitudes stronger then Alexander, and while he doesn't seem to actually be free of the moon by the time 6.0 rolls around, perhaps simply being awake is enough to have grave side effects on the world.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm starting to question why Hydaelyn, a being who was supposedly summoned in order to preserve the new lives on the star even possessed the ability to sunder the world in the first place.

It doesn't really seem to align with her purpose, unlike...say, Alexander's ability to travel through time, which fit with its intended purpose of creating an ideal world by enabling it to right past wrongs...or at least it would've had the thing not been simply too powerful to act without draining excessive amount of aether.

For that matter, I'm also questioning if Zodiark seemingly being tied to the resurgence of the Final Days might simply be because the Source simply isn't in a state to withstand the presence of an active primal as powerful as he is. Even fractured, he's liable to be several magnitudes stronger then Alexander, and while he doesn't seem to actually be free of the moon by the time 6.0 rolls around, perhaps simply being awake is enough to have grave side effects on the world.

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I think you're on to something here, as the evidence we have to date implies that Hydaelyn only functions in a capacity to stop the final days from coming to pass. A permanent solution to what Zodiark can't fix. Balance is the desired goal.

Zodiark on the other hand, may not even be aware he is causing the thing he was summoned to stop. And if his volume of power is enough to end all existence and he blindly uses that power, he becomes like a child with nuclear weapons or, worse, an idealistic youngster who lacks the foresight to think about the consequences of their actions.

Maybe I've missed some lore somewhere, but where was it stated that Zodiark and Hydaelyn consumed aether like regular Primals?

They're the result of Creation magicks, not flawed summoning like current day primals. I'd consider Zodiark as a framework over reality on the Star, so they set laws of the world in aether through He, but He still needs to be fed aether everytime it must change things : rewrite laws = 50% ancients worth of aether, reseed life = 25%, etc.
Otherwise, we'd be way out of aether since Hydaelyn has been around these past 13000 years or so. Hydaelyn is also shown as out of aether and thus, unable to act. Wouldn't She simply feed on some aether to help us when we actually really need it, if She simply has the power to do so?

Besides, I've never got Hydaelyn summoning as a mean to stop the Final Days from coming, but to counter Zodiark. It's even said by Emet-Selch, when he explains that since She was summoned to stop Him, She had the power to "enervate Her foe". I understand that She used that power on Him, which split Zodiark in 14, and I suppose that since He was the Will of the Star, totally twined with the star at that point, it had the consequences of also splitting the world in Source and Reflections.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

Maybe I've missed some lore somewhere, but where was it stated that Zodiark and Hydaelyn consumed aether like regular Primals?

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It was never explicitly stated anywhere, but it was never said that that wasn't the case either, plus we all know Ascians have a penchant for conveniently leaving out details they deem unnecessary or would put them at fault.

Primals in general require aether, which as previously mentioned is why Alexander decided to seal itself because it couldn't act out its intended purpose without causing more harm to the world then it prevented and it was also bleeding the world of aether by simply existing on top of that.

The sacrifices made to Zodiark may have simply been in lieu of the aether he otherwise would've needed to pull directly from the world itself (Which was not an option due to the state the Final Days had left it in), and for all we know he may have continued to need further sacrifices even had he managed to act out his original purpose lest he start draining the world of its aether.

I feel like if it was safe for them to do it prematurely, the Ascians would've tried to wake up and/or release Zodiark before the Rejoining was complete as it really would've only made their job easier if their god was around to help them squish any opposition from pesky Warriors of Light and such. It is possible that Fandaniel is somehow privy to knowledge and methods that not even the unsundered were aware of despite his seemingly lesser status as a sundered, though.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

Maybe I've missed some lore somewhere, but where was it stated that Zodiark and Hydaelyn consumed aether like regular Primals?

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It's not even explicitly stated that they're the same as the primals we know. Emet-Selch describes them as primals (to paraphrase the spirit of the line in various languages) "for lack of a more familiar word" / "in language even you could understand." They could be aether-tight and powered sufficiently by the Ancients who summoned them / sacrificed themselves, for all we know. The fact that when sundered beings summon things, the results constantly consume aether and leak auric corruption might have been the entire point of teaching it to them: they're incapable of doing it right, and chaos inevitably ensues.

One would think if Hydaelyn could just eat aether, She wouldn't be as weak as She is sitting in a sea of it.

She seems unable or unwilling, to me, but the anti-Hydaelyn crowd used to just say "every time She's weak, She eats a world on purpose" as their interpretation of Calamities.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

She seems unable or unwilling, to me, but the anti-Hydaelyn crowd used to just say "every time She's weak, She eats a world on purpose" as their interpretation of Calamities.

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That's an interesting way of framing things. For starters, not everybody who is wary of Hydaelyn is even making the same arguments. Furthermore, the game has given many legitimate reason to doubt Hydaelyn (even if we're being generous and ignore the creepy patch art with Minfilia being bound in chains among various other factors, Krile and Y'shtola are currently doubting Hydaelyn in the most recent content patch).

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Originally Posted by Alenore

Maybe I've missed some lore somewhere, but where was it stated that Zodiark and Hydaelyn consumed aether like regular Primals?

They're the result of Creation magicks, not flawed summoning like current day primals. I'd consider Zodiark as a framework over reality on the Star, so they set laws of the world in aether through He, but He still needs to be fed aether everytime it must change things : rewrite laws = 50% ancients worth of aether, reseed life = 25%, etc.
Otherwise, we'd be way out of aether since Hydaelyn has been around these past 13000 years or so. Hydaelyn is also shown as out of aether and thus, unable to act. Wouldn't She simply feed on some aether to help us when we actually really need it, if She simply has the power to do so?

Besides, I've never got Hydaelyn summoning as a mean to stop the Final Days from coming, but to counter Zodiark. It's even said by Emet-Selch, when he explains that since She was summoned to stop Him, She had the power to "enervate Her foe". I understand that She used that power on Him, which split Zodiark in 14, and I suppose that since He was the Will of the Star, totally twined with the star at that point, it had the consequences of also splitting the world in Source and Reflections.

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It’s never stated no, a lot of people just seem to want to assume that because hur durr theyre primals. Even though we’ve been shown they vary greatly from the primals we see on the source.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

Maybe I've missed some lore somewhere, but where was it stated that Zodiark and Hydaelyn consumed aether like regular Primals?

They're the result of Creation magicks, not flawed summoning like current day primals. I'd consider Zodiark as a framework over reality on the Star, so they set laws of the world in aether through He, but He still needs to be fed aether everytime it must change things : rewrite laws = 50% ancients worth of aether, reseed life = 25%, etc.
Otherwise, we'd be way out of aether since Hydaelyn has been around these past 13000 years or so. Hydaelyn is also shown as out of aether and thus, unable to act. Wouldn't She simply feed on some aether to help us when we actually really need it, if She simply has the power to do so?

Besides, I've never got Hydaelyn summoning as a mean to stop the Final Days from coming, but to counter Zodiark. It's even said by Emet-Selch, when he explains that since She was summoned to stop Him, She had the power to "enervate Her foe". I understand that She used that power on Him, which split Zodiark in 14, and I suppose that since He was the Will of the Star, totally twined with the star at that point, it had the consequences of also splitting the world in Source and Reflections.

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I'd also give this a read as a potential battery for them (1) because the Heart of Sabik is indeed referred to as a black auracite and 2) because they both are represented by giant crystals.) Worth bearing in mind that these crystals are rechargeable, as well. They are not infinite reservoirs of power but, as with the RDM focus, they seem to have the property of amplifying immaterial aether. All that would render them good candidates for being able to power such Primals through occasional re-charging via the Aetherial Sea, and also control the release of the Primal's own energy outwards.

Of course, it is nowhere stated that they specifically consume aether constantly, and it is very possible the ancients would have considered this before putting one into the Underworld; they had been researching them as a means of combatting the Terminus beasts in Akadaemia Anyder, and they had knowledge of arcane constructs even before that (the firebird in the Hades short story), so it's not as though they went into this with zero knowledge. The fact that Zodiark stimulated growth as he did (per Hythlodaeus) is, I think, a big question mark on the whole "consuming the world's aether" thing. If anything, I believe the chief concern would've been of the effect of the Primal's aetheric aspect on the Aetherial Sea's aether, so perhaps there was a desire to keep this balanced once the desired growth levels were achieved, rather than it being a case of the Primal feeding too much off the world.

Personally I think they endowed Hydaelyn with the power to enervate in the event that Zodiark resisted. They predicted that their own people would turn on them for it, and Zodiark was many times more powerful than Hydaelyn - at the point of summoning, anyway. It's not inconceivable that they would expect resistance in such circumstances. No Primal is going to take too kindly to another one just being grafted onto it. The fact that the panels in Rak'tika, for whatever those are worth, depict her with the double halo by the end, could easily mean she had tapped into a portion of his power after enervating and binding. After all, if the power reservoir is a crystal, it may be as easy as the Primal taking up residence in the one installed in the Aetherial Sea, expelling a chunk of it in the process of binding him with whatever (no doubt still considerable) power was left in him.

https://i.imgur.com/83YHUCm.jpg

It's also worth noting that Emet describes this power, to enervate (which when you think about it is a pretty complex concept, since it strikes at all attributes), as one never seen before in the French version, which does make me wonder if some third party approached them with it and didn't fully apprise them of how it would work. Maybe the expectation was that it'd just work as a method of leaching Zodiark, but instead it went a lot further than that.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

Besides, I've never got Hydaelyn summoning as a mean to stop the Final Days from coming, but to counter Zodiark. It's even said by Emet-Selch, when he explains that since She was summoned to stop Him, She had the power to "enervate Her foe". I understand that She used that power on Him, which split Zodiark in 14, and I suppose that since He was the Will of the Star, totally twined with the star at that point, it had the consequences of also splitting the world in Source and Reflections.

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The evidence that supports Hydaelyn being summoned to stop the final days comes from the recordings at the end of the Anamnesis Anyder dungeon where Venat and followers discuss that Hydaelyn needs to be summoned to be a permanent solution to the coming of The Final Days as all Zodiark has done is just extend the time period before this comes to pass. Venat and company are presented as individuals who are out of options and I feel if there is something wrong with Hydaelyn, it is this forced desperation that encumbered her summoners.

Meaning, if we continue down the path of Zodiark as a blind power, he would resist Hydaelyn at all costs forcing her to amp up her actions to get balance and stop the Final Days from coming again. Granted it was less nefarious on the part of Hydaelyn, but she was just doing what she thought was right.

While it's possible Hydaelyn was created as a permanent safeguard against a repeat of the Final Days, I'm not so certain of it - the only context we've been given behind her creation is as a restraint to keep Zodiark in check. While he did fix things, it still seems the Ancients never discovered the root cause of the Sound; can't counteract what you don't understand.

I was also of the mind that the summoning rituals taught to the beast tribes were deliberately made imperfect, though I'm not so certain the aetheric drain is deliberately baked in. I'd wager the general belligerence is, given only three (Ramuh, who is nonetheless so severe we end up fighting him anyway; Alexander, who removes himself from spacetime; and Susano, who is just out to have a good fight) aren't outright hostile and show no desire to temper mortals. Doubtless part of it is that summons are usually called on as superweapons by the beast tribes, though many such conflicts are engendered or taken advantage of by the Ascians for their own ends.

Going in a different direction, I can't help but wonder... bear with me on this—it's a bit of an odd take.

Zodiark has the power to reshape the laws of reality. Thus, no matter how firm his laws seem, they have one enormous weakness: Zodiark Himself. If he willed it to be, or if someone seized control of him and made him act, he could unmake those laws and plunge the world into chaos. This, in turn, is why they summoned Hydaelyn with the express purpose of shackling Zodiark. By locking him into a state where he can not act, Zodiark is rendered incapable of undermining the fabric of reality.

Unfortunately, either something went horribly wrong, or something went horribly right.

Situation A: Hydaelyn uses her heretofore unheard of gift of "Enervation" to shatter Zodiark. But since Zodiark—as the will of the star—is inseparably tied to it, hitting him is in effect the same as hitting the star itself. Thus was everything shattered. Zodiark, Hydaelyn, the moon in which the latter sealed the former, the world beneath her feet, and every single soul, living or otherwise.

Situation B: Hydaelyn determined that Zodiark can never be contained so long as someone with the power to unshackle him exists. And so she intentionally did the above. Venat and her followers may have planned that all along, or it may have been improvisation during the fight with Zodiark. Or maybe Hydaelyn was never under anyone's control and they all went Pikachuface.png when she did it, having been thoroughly surprised by the consequences of their actions.

… as an aside, I still believe we're going to find out that it was Azem, not Venat+Friends, whose objections to further sacrifices to Zodiark caused a rift to form in Amaurotine society. Though I can't imagine how such a misunderstanding could occur short of Azem choosing to remain anonymous in their objections.

EDIT: As for The Sound, I'm beginning to believe it may just be a MacGuffin—an object, device, or event that is necessary to the plot and the motivation of the characters, but insignificant, unimportant, or irrelevant in itself. In other words, it might not actually matter what caused it to happen, or why it caused the Ancients to freak out. What does matter is that it got the snowball that is "the Ancients ruin everything for everyone by ending the world/summoning Zodiark/summoning Hydaelyn" rolling.

Or it could be a whole plot reference to Final Fantasy 7. I'd rather it not be, but I do love to draw comparisons between Zenos and Sephiroth...

But doesn't Azen vacate their seat prior to the Final days reaching Amaurot and so before the summoning of Zodiark? While it's possible they return sometime between the summoning and the sacrifices given there're the "forgotten" member, it implies they were gone for a while.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

But doesn't Azen vacate their seat prior to the Final days reaching Amaurot and so before the summoning of Zodiark? While it's possible they return sometime between the summoning and the sacrifices given there're the "forgotten" member, it implies they were gone for a while.

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I don't see why vacating their seat necessitates leaving Amaurot to begin with. It's a strange assumption to make, don't you think?

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I don't see why vacating their seat necessitates leaving Amaurot to begin with. It's a strange assumption to make, don't you think?

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Given that all we're told of Azem is that their role was to leave the city and be the one to deal with and see things from the perspective of the outside while relaying it back, combined with their trend of "solving problems themselves" in conjunction with their seat being referred to as "forgotten" I'd find it a stranger assumption that after vacating their seat the "wonderer" would then remain in the city while the convocation resumed the very plan they objected to, while the issue at hand was not only out there and getting closer, but also hurting the people Azen had bent the rules so many times to protect.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

She seems unable or unwilling, to me, but the anti-Hydaelyn crowd used to just say "every time She's weak, She eats a world on purpose" as their interpretation of Calamities.

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Well Venat must have forgotten to include a stomach in the blueprint then, since She gets weaker after each Calamity lol.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

That's an interesting way of framing things. For starters, not everybody who is wary of Hydaelyn is even making the same arguments. Furthermore, the game has given many legitimate reason to doubt Hydaelyn (even if we're being generous and ignore the creepy patch art with Minfilia being bound in chains among various other factors, Krile and Y'shtola are currently doubting Hydaelyn in the most recent content patch).

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I didn't feel it as "doubting" as much as "something's up" : for instance, they're even positing that something is blocking Hydaelyn's ability to reach out.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

It's also worth noting that Emet describes this power, to enervate (which when you think about it is a pretty complex concept, since it strikes at all attributes), as one never seen before in the French version, which does make me wonder if some third party approached them with it and didn't fully apprise them of how it would work. Maybe the expectation was that it'd just work as a method of leaching Zodiark, but instead it went a lot further than that.

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I mean, rewriting the law of physics/aether is a stretch too. I see it more in a way of "Put enough Aether and creation magic together, and you'll get yourself the outcome you wish for".

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Originally Posted by Kesey

The evidence that supports Hydaelyn being summoned to stop the final days comes from the recordings at the end of the Anamnesis Anyder dungeon where Venat and followers discuss that Hydaelyn needs to be summoned to be a permanent solution to the coming of The Final Days as all Zodiark has done is just extend the time period before this comes to pass. Venat and company are presented as individuals who are out of options and I feel if there is something wrong with Hydaelyn, it is this forced desperation that encumbered her summoners.

Meaning, if we continue down the path of Zodiark as a blind power, he would resist Hydaelyn at all costs forcing her to amp up her actions to get balance and stop the Final Days from coming again. Granted it was less nefarious on the part of Hydaelyn, but she was just doing what she thought was right.

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Some quotes from Anyder and previous dialogues, mostly when Emet-Selch teaches us about the whole enervate thingy.

That one seems to indicate Zodiark wasn't enough to fix things. They however speak about doom more than the Sound and the calamity itself. Perhaps the whole "sacrificing most of the population everytime we have something to do" didn't seem like a long-term solution to him, more than "The Sound will come back" ?

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Originally Posted by Disucssion in Anyder

Venat : By the summoning of Zodiark have we been granted a reprieve. Yet immutable as the laws He has woven may seem, they will not serve to forestall our doom.

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Distressed Ancient : Nay. Should we continue down this path, our fate will be the same. I said as much to the Convocation, of course, but the stubborn fools turned a deaf ear to my warnings. I had hoped that the defector, at least, would side with us, but I regret to report our overtures have gone unanswered. Whither tend your thoughts, Venat? Where you lead, we will follow.[/QUOTE]

The following ones tend to agree with the viewpoint of "Hydaelyn is Venat's idea of checks and balances. Emet-Selch Point of view must be taken with a grain of salt though, since he probably doesn't have the whole picture / doesn't see past the main result of why Venat and his followers summoned Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by Venat, in Anyder

Let us bring forth the light that shall ever after keep the Darkness in check.

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Originally Posted by Venat, in Anyder's second hologram

If Hydaelyn is to stand a chance of opposing Him, I am the only one who might suffice as Her heart. Rest assured, however: I shall not banish from this world. The form I take shall ever remain my choice.

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Originally Posted by Urianger, relating Emet's point of view

Some were of the viewpoint that His power must needs be restrained, and to that end did they call forth She who would serve as His shackles.

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Originally Posted by Emet-Selch, in French and translated

En tant que garde fou de Zordiark, Hydaelyn était dotée de capacités tout bonnement extraordinaires. / As a check to Zodiark, Hydaelyn was given simply exceptionnal abilities.

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I suppose both theories hold until we get more informations.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

Given that all we're told of Azem is that their role was to leave the city and be the one to deal with and see things from the perspective of the outside while relaying it back, combined with their trend of "solving problems themselves" in conjunction with their seat being referred to as "forgotten" I'd find it a stranger assumption that after vacating their seat the "wonderer" would then remain in the city while the convocation resumed the very plan they objected to, while the issue at hand was not only out there and getting closer, but also hurting the people Azen had bent the rules so many times to protect.

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I disagree, on the basis that the very event that lead to Azem stepping down was the decision to summon Zodiark. I'm of the mind that this decision wasn't made before the disaster spread to Amaurot, but after. That it wasn't until the Convocation had full knowledge of just how widespread the destruction truly was—what with the entire planet being bombarded by meteors and so on—that they realized what was actually happening and what it would necessitate to stop it.

By that point, Azem running around on their own would accomplish nothing short of getting themselves killed, rather than saving anyone. And that's if there was anyone left out there to begin with.

And after Zodiark was summoned? The world miraculously stopped ending, and then miraculously was revitalized, with new life in place of the old. It was no longer in a state where it needed to be saved, and there's no particular reason for Azem to go rushing out on their own to do it. And since I'm of the mind that Azem was the critic against further use of Zodiark's power, I'd posit that they'd grown disillusioned with Amaurot's self-imposed "stewards of this star" role.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I disagree, on the basis that the very event that lead to Azem stepping down was the decision to summon Zodiark. I'm of the mind that this decision wasn't made before the disaster spread to Amaurot, but after. That it wasn't until the Convocation had full knowledge of just how widespread the destruction truly was—what with the entire planet being bombarded by meteors and so on—that they realized what was actually happening and what it would necessitate to stop it.

By that point, Azem running around on their own would accomplish nothing short of getting themselves killed, rather than saving anyone. And that's if there was anyone left out there to begin with.

And after Zodiark was summoned? The world miraculously stopped ending, and then miraculously was revitalized, with new life in place of the old. It was no longer in a state where it needed to be saved, and there's no particular reason for Azem to go rushing out on their own to do it. And since I'm of the mind that Azem was the critic against further use of Zodiark's power, I'd posit that they'd grown disillusioned with Amaurot's self-imposed "stewards of this star" role.

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Except when you arrive in the "Fake Amaurot" with the Scions and talk with the shades there, they refer to the Convocation of the 13, not 14 but also imply the Convocation are working on a plan that will save them, so they've not done anything yet, but also Azem isn't counted as being a member anymore, also they still talk of the disaster being in far off lands but getting closer, all of that shows Azem having already vacated before the end days reached Amaurot and before the summoning happened.
I could see them returning after the summoning to oppose them using him again, but it's clear from what we see in game that Azem did leave before hand, there seems to be a gap of time between the decision to use Zodiark and the end days getting to them.
Though that raises another question, if they came up with the plan so far ahead, but Emet shows us Amaurot burning, why'd they wait so long? Hesitation perhaps?

I see "Fake Amaurot" as being akin to a museum wing, rather than a slice of any specific moment in the city's history. As such, things like "the Convocation of Thirteen" would be anachronistic knowledge, akin to an animatronic dummy waxing on about, say, the Trail of Tears in a setpiece representing a Choctaw settlement before 1831.

Though this museum wing was created by someone who was actually there at the time with the memories of a lot of the people who existed at that time, while the people there are just actors playing their part as Hythlodaeus's shade put it, "There stuck in this moment, replaying it, going about their lives unaware" So from how it was created to by whom, it dose seem to be a literal holodeck scene of "The final days of Amaurot" and Azem isn't there or even considered on the Convocation at that point in their history.

I bet Sharlayan was founded by the group of Ancients that opposed Zodiark.

Just to clarify a few things 'fore I pass out:

The phantom Amaurot is taken from an exact point in time: according to the phantom Hythlodaeus (a.k.a. Emet-Selch), it's drawn from the eve of the Final Days reaching Amaurot.

Azem had already vacated his/her seat in the Convocation at that point, or otherwise wasn't present.

My general read is that Zodiark was simply too powerful for Hydaelyn to defeat in a contest of pure power (not surprising), so she had to sunder him to fulfill her directive; unfortunately being "the will of the star" this act sundered the physical planet and everything on it as an unintended side effect.

I'd agree the Sound was just a MacGuffin to precipitate the fall from paradise, but considering how detailed this game tends to be about the smallest things, and in the Announcement Showcase one of the questions posed was specifically "What [caused] the Final Days?", I don't think that's the case. (And, being inquisitive by nature, I'd be super disappointed if it were.)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

I'd agree the Sound was just a MacGuffin to precipitate the fall from paradise, but considering how detailed this game tends to be about the smallest things, and in the Announcement Showcase one of the questions posed was specifically "What [caused] the Final Days?", I don't think that's the case. (And, being inquisitive by nature, I'd be super disappointed if it were.)

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I felt the sound was purposely not detailed so it could be expanded upon later; but if it was just going to be a MacGuffin did it really need to be shrouded in mystery as to how it came about?

And also being inquisitive myself, I want to know what the heck Azem was doing while all the summon Zodiark then summon Hydaelyn drama is going on because we clearly only know he/she wasn't apart of the drama? It feels like we know more and can discuss more about other Anceint's lives and not our own player character's past life (I'm sure also on purpose).

Given that they left before it arrived but didn't seem to be there on the Eve, I'd guess they were out trying to either understand the sound or stop it, then Zodiark get's summoned, things calm down for a moment, Azem might even have returned during this, found the Convocation as unwilling to listen to reason as before, likely more so given the tempering, left again only to be asked by Hydaelyn's group to join them, not liking the idea of another super weapon to deal with the first, left again, perhaps to resume the work they were doing into the sound prior to Zodiark's summoning.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we learn that Azem actually found the answer, only to arrived back too late and get sundered along with the rest of the world, the irony being we'll have had the answer to the final days all along, we just don't remember and given we never had a chance to tell anyone, the unsundered had no reason to ever try and restore us when they had the chance.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I disagree, on the basis that the very event that lead to Azem stepping down was the decision to summon Zodiark. I'm of the mind that this decision wasn't made before the disaster spread to Amaurot, but after.

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It was definitely made before. It takes time to have half your population draw straws/volunteer.

Something that goes somewhat unnoticed is that the monsters Emet-selch pits you against in the Amaurot dungeon are the same monsters he and the Convocation members with him at the time, faced.

"But between us and our goal loomed a final misbegotten fiend..."

Why did they need to be in the upper atmosphere in order to perform the summoning, and why then, was there opposition specifically there? Must have been part of something planned, with its opposition knowing that plan's details. After all, why would misbegotten fiends leave the planet's surface at all, in a small formation to a specific place?

Let's look at the word choice, "misbegotten." That word has a few meanings:

1) unlawfully or irregularly born/caused (as in a child born out of wedlock)
2) badly conceived, made, or carried out
3) contemptible

Given what we know about Amaurot society from the, "museum wing" as you call it, we know that all of their creations were made under the guidance of a strict and formal bureaucracy. You see Therion(s) throughout the dungeon, torching Amaurot with lasers and flying about ominously. In the end cutscene, the boss flies up from the planet. There are also monsters in the form of people, similar to Lamashtu in appearance, called, "Terminus Idolizer." I reckon there were other creators doing clandestine things that are ultimately responsible for The Sound.

There was a lot of the story of those times that we weren't told. I for one think that just as there are the Telophoroi now, there were their ancient counterparts then, seeking to usher in doomsday. You also notice, and this is widely noticed, that the bosses in Amaurot all have humanoid faces. As if they were monsters that people became. Therion has four. I suspect since the Convocation succeeded, that whoever was behind the Terminus Cult back then played to both sides, hoping that a war between gods would end the world. For as mighty as Azem was and is, they may not have had any of the answers, but if they did, I suspect their hands were tied by the cult.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

Though that raises another question, if they came up with the plan so far ahead, but Emet shows us Amaurot burning, why'd they wait so long? Hesitation perhaps?

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I suspect their usual debating. From the story about Azem and the island with the grapes, it seems the Convocation was known for taking its sweet time in responding to things because they went about it in a logical fashion, often resulting in them responding too late.

Which is likely why Azem constantly broke protocols and rules in order to protect people. I wouldn't be surprised if Azem wasn't originally from Amaurot but from elsewhere, and was merely chosen by the previous Azem while they were out dealing with a threat to the star.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

And also being inquisitive myself, I want to know what the heck Azem was doing while all the summon Zodiark then summon Hydaelyn drama is going on because we clearly only know he/she wasn't apart of the drama? It feels like we know more and can discuss more about other Anceint's lives and not our own player character's past life (I'm sure also on purpose).

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It's likely Azem was hunting down the possible cause for the Sound and trying to deal with it at its Source. I think it would be pure irony if right before Azem was about to finish off (in one way or another) the source of it, the Sundering happened.

Following the recent patch, reading all the speculations here in this thread and trying to keep them in my head to give my thoughts, here are my next batch of list of what could happen/be revealed in Endwalker MSQ and another sidelist related to things outside the main story.

Could happen/be revealed:

• We may encounter a similar scene in the MSQ in which the Sharlayan higher-ups are perhaps divided on what to do with the cataclysmic event involving the whole world, mirroring the Amaurotians themselves with the Last Days
• The aforementioned scene might provoke an upset reaction on the WOL, for them to be a repeat of the Convocation, who were too idle until it involved their city at last.
• The Sharlayan existence might not be coincidental that they might be the Amaurot of today
• Say, did somebody ever tried to explore the possibility that some sundered Ascians like Fandaniel was fooling the Unsundered all along and they may have been an Unsundered as well in a sense that they actually remember everything what happened in the past or is it too far fetched and I missed some fact?

The sidelist:

• Since some people speculate that Ranjit is a preview of the second job that will be announced in the Online Fanfest, if it is true, it's pretty likely that the job just like the Sage will have some relation to Sharlayan. I read it somewhere here in the forums but I don't know where anymore that the familiars of Ranjit's lineage might have some connections to Ronkan civilization. Ronkan civilization is associated with owls and the boss in Lamitt's quest for acquiring the healing spell for the stone sickness happened to looked similar to the owl boss in the Gubal Library. Perhaps the Source version of Ronkan civilization is the origin of the second Endwalker job?
• Will the Lambs of Dalamud perhaps get second wind in this expansion?

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Originally Posted by symbiote129

[*]Will the Lambs of Dalamud perhaps get second wind in this expansion?[/LIST]

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Oooh, I vaguely remember Koji Fox mentioned he wanted to use the Lambs of Dalamud again. Though we supposedly killed them all in Amdapor Keep. There's a few lore points here and there about them that could be pretty cool to come back to.

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Originally Posted by symbiote129

Could happen/be revealed:

• We may encounter a similar scene in the MSQ in which the Sharlayan higher-ups are perhaps divided on what to do with the cataclysmic event involving the whole world, mirroring the Amaurotians themselves with the Last Days
• The aforementioned scene might provoke an upset reaction on the WOL, for them to be a repeat of the Convocation, who were too idle until it involved their city at last.

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I'm not sure how that would affect the Sharlayan Forum, though. Unlike with Amaurot, in which Azem was a member of the Convocation, the WoL in the present day has no Sharlayan citizenship, let alone being a member of the Forum. At most, the WoL is an honorary archon (if you played 1.0 and got the tatoo)... which means nothing.

I never played 1.0, so no idea how much this would mess with things, but the only way I could see them giving us any weight in Sharlayan quickly is if it's revealed somehow we're from there, in the 2.0 intro it's kind vague where you're from, you're only really able to say if this is your first time to X city state or not and during the DRK quests Fray (Us) has a super longing to go back over the sea to somewhere distant. Given them being willing to nail down the WoL a bit more recently (though with an identity from 12000 years ago) they could swing a surprise twist like that if Sharlayan is to rein-act the final days split and we're to play our part in that again, or just as a means to explain how we get things done so quickly, depending on who exactly we are/were.

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Originally Posted by symbiote129

Say, did somebody ever tried to explore the possibility that some sundered Ascians like Fandaniel was fooling the Unsundered all along and they may have been an Unsundered as well in a sense that they actually remember everything what happened in the past or is it too far fetched and I missed some fact?

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That's not far-fetched at all, actually, at least until they 100% reveal/nail down exactly how the Unsundered escaped the Sundering. I think it was mentioned somewhere that they escaped to the/a rift between dimensions to escape it. It could be possible that other Ancients escaped the Sundering, somehow. Though if he were unsundered, it might open a can of worms that's better left sealed/conflict with the weight of our prior encounter.

The Source's version of Ronka is Allag, but the Sharlayans are all super versed in Allagan tech and likely have it completely unlocked. Which is why Sage has the funnels. I'd say you're on a good thought train though, since in Gubal HM the final boss is an Owl just the same as the owl in Ronka. Though I think the new job will be from/related to Radz-at-han or somewhere we've already been... or perhaps just a person and not a place.

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Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

I'm not sure how that would affect the Sharlayan Forum, though. Unlike with Amaurot, in which Azem was a member of the Convocation, the WoL in the present day has no Sharlayan citizenship, let alone being a member of the Forum. At most, the WoL is an honorary archon (if you played 1.0 and got the tatoo)... which means nothing.

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For Sharlayan to learn from Amaurot is not so far fetched of a concept. It doesn't matter if the WOL is or is not an Archon. It comes down to them characteristically not getting involved when clearly things are so out of control it will engulf them and if they wait till the last moment they will make a mistake trying to save themselves that echos through time for generations. It's a pretty astute observation on the part of symbiote129.