Selling Ultimate Weapon Ultima Is Apparently Not Against the ToS

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

Love your passion on the topic but really people paying for runs have existed since the start of the game and they are still here. You may just want to get used to it. This isn’t a rebellion lol it’s some people selling runs whoop de do. If it bothers you so much then do something about it. Ie go into discord and take some shots dealing with these people and send them in to SE. whining accomplishes nada

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I report what I see, and I am telling people who say that people should do nothing that they are wrong.

In any case you seem to be on the "I don't care" side of things. Telling people not to complain aka whine to SE? More apathy encouraging more apathy and inaction. Please champ.

The "enlightened" attitude of people saying that we should say nothing in the face of rampant rmt, botting and account sharing/cheating is quite annoying to be frank.

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Originally Posted by Mixt

Having one of these sorry excuses for human beings parading around and crowing about how great they are for having done something they didn't actually do and looking down on and throwing slurs at everyone else, and blaming us for things they themselves cause because they think they are infallible for having done said thing they did not actually do is incredibly aggravating, downright rage-inducing even.

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The obvious solution is just simply asking anyone you see with a UCOB or UWU weapon how much they paid for it. Smack talk is a 2 way street. #needthickerskin

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

I specifically mentioned this DRG for a simple reason. A player, a clearly toxic one at that, managed to scramble enough money to purchase a UWU clear. This player proceeds to wanna show just how cool his weapon is, but he has no idea how to play. I want to note, this was Tsukuyomi. If he really did clear it without paying out the money, why would this easy trial be an issue for him?

As someone said earlier in the thread, you can tell who cleared it, and who paid for it. And so far I've yet to see anyone with a UWU weapon actually be good at the game. But glad to know he can rub it in my face and call me a bunch of slurs.

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You can tell who cleared legitimately and who didn't by checking a certain website everyone loves to hate. Bought clears aren't uploaded there. If the DRG has an upload, he didn't buy it. So does he or does he not?

That's not excusing his attitude, but are your assumptions baseless or do they have a shred of proof to them?

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Reminder, like I mentioned in another post, I had an FC member openly admit that he bots. He gets 99% of his mats through using his bot program, even said how much he paid for it. He isn't banned.

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Have you reported this person? FC chat logs are just the kind of evidence SE needs to ban botters, since he's openly admitting it in-game. And it's the only kind of evidence they actively accept.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Reminder, like I mentioned in another post, I had an FC member openly admit that he bots. He gets 99% of his mats through using his bot program, even said how much he paid for it. He isn't banned.

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Was he dumb enough to mention what program he was using? Because a GM mentioned that including a link to the program in the report is a valid form of evidence and I'm curious to see whether it would actually make a difference.

I've noticed while some people aren't above mentioning that they bot on my server's discord channel, they make it a note to be hush-hush about what bot they're using on the public channels.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You can tell who cleared legitimately and who didn't by checking a certain website everyone loves to hate. Bought clears aren't uploaded there. If the DRG has an upload, he didn't buy it. So does he or does he not?

That's not excusing his attitude, but are your assumptions baseless or do they have a shred of proof to them?

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Not on that site, but to be honest, would I need to check? DRG dropped meteor in the middle, just enough to cover 100% of the safe spot. I doubt someone like that would have cleared it.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Have you reported this person? FC chat logs are just the kind of evidence SE needs to ban botters, since he's openly admitting it in-game. And it's the only kind of evidence they actively accept.

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Yes, I did. Time stamps and everything. This was like 2 months ago.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Not on that site, but to be honest, would I need to check? DRG dropped meteor in the middle, just enough to cover 100% of the safe spot. I doubt someone like that would have cleared it.

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But if you’re going to make assumptions, it’s probably best to confirm them. I’m not defending his attitude, but I’ve dropped meteors in the wrong spot before myself because I’ve been tunneling. Mistakes happen; they don’t mean that someone bought their clears. So confirm if they had or not. Doesn’t seem like it would hurt anything.

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Yes, I did. Time stamps and everything. This was like 2 months ago.

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Then you’ve done all you can; you can’t make the GMs take action.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

But if you’re going to make assumptions, it’s probably best to confirm them. I’m not defending his attitude, but I’ve dropped meteors in the wrong spot before myself because I’ve been tunneling. Mistakes happen; they don’t mean that someone bought their clears. So confirm if they had or not. Doesn’t seem like it would hurt anything.

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Sorry maybe my wording was crap. NO HE DIDN'T HAVE A LISTED CLEAR. Okay that easier to get? <3

Also, do you state a bunch of slurs and say your UWU weapon can't carry this team? Because if so we got an issue.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Sorry maybe my wording was crap. NO HE DIDN'T HAVE A LISTED CLEAR. Okay that easier to get? <3

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Okay, then.

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Also, do you state a bunch of slurs and say your UWU weapon can't carry this team? Because if so we got an issue.

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And I never said I was excusing his attitude. I suggest you go back and actually read my posts, thank you. <3

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I never said I was excusing his attitude. I suggest you go back and actually read my posts, thank you. <3

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I never stated his mistake alone was why suspicion rose. It was moreso his heavily hostile attitude and constant gloating. So I guess neither of us are reading.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

I never stated his mistake alone was why suspicion rose. It was moreso his heavily hostile attitude and constant gloating. So I guess neither of us are reading.

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No, I read just fine. You’re going on about his attitude, where as I said numerous times that I wasn’t defending nor excusing it. I only made the comment I did about mistakes because your comment of “He dropped the meteor in the wrong spot, so I doubt someone like that could have cleared UwU” comes with the insinuation that Ultimate-cleared raiders needs be perfect 100% of the time, which is simply not possible. Hence why I said “Mistakes happen, and you can’t base your assumptions of ‘he made a mistake so I doubt he actually cleared’ on just people making mistakes”.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Not on that site, but to be honest, would I need to check? DRG dropped meteor in the middle, just enough to cover 100% of the safe spot. I doubt someone like that would have cleared it.



Yes, I did. Time stamps and everything. This was like 2 months ago.

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If they dropped meteor just enough to cover 100% of the safe spot, it could be they were just trolling as well.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Its against the ToS because sharing account information is against the ToS, not because of RMT.

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They are doing both. Real money trade by selling content for money (which SE did post that any selling for money is against the ToS) and then account sharing to clear it for them.

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

Mmm this is a grey area. If I’m going to be away on work and I let my nephew on my account to play while I’m gone, is this wrong? How people who play let their wives, gf, husband, bf, etc log in with their account? I dunno I know what you are getting at but for arguments sake I’m bringing up these counter points

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If you want to be anal about it, that all is account sharing and tos breaking.

I found this article about how Blizzard are going to deal with players using the PF (or Group Finder) to advertise sales of content etc in WoW. Eventually SE might need to consider doing something similar.

https://blizzardwatch.com/2018/07/02...inder-ads/amp/

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Originally Posted by Kurando

I found this article about how Blizzard are going to deal with players using the PF (or Group Finder) to advertise sales of content etc in WoW. Eventually SE might need to consider doing something similar.

https://blizzardwatch.com/2018/07/02...inder-ads/amp/

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SE probably should do the same. Gil is a loophole for RMT. You can just advertise it for gil then make a deal for real money outside the game.

Perhaps SE should just have a separate tab in the PF for people that want to sell content with Gil or in game items BUT the party cannot be cross world. As we all know you can't trade Gil that way, so directing buyers to discord etc clearly has RMT intentions.

They should just not allow the advertising period. Like I said gil is a convenient loophole for people who want to RMT.

And does such a thing harm the game as a whole? Preventing people from throwing money around to complete content?

By doing this you cripple the rmt that happens in the game while only making the cheaters angry. You are also taking steps towards making the people with completed content more credible.

Only good things come from doing this.

Here's the part that gets me about SE. They go and remind us of this: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...d5018ee8fc7b01

And in particular:

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Should you witness actions related to RMT, such as advertisements within the game leading to external services via Say, Shout, Tell, and Yell, you can report them... To report RMT related actions outside of chat, you can visit the [Support Desk] menu

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(emphasis mine)

By "outside of chat", I'd think the party finder is the main thing they're talking about, although they're probably using broad wording to cover any other cases. Discord counts as an external service, doesn't it? Couldn't the "Special Task Force" simply run a kind of sting operation? Just pose as a player trying to buy a run, follow the Discord info from the PF, and the moment RMT is discussed, bring down the ban hammer?

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

If you want to be anal about it, that all is account sharing and tos breaking.

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And? What is being done about this? Nada. So, why should anything be done about people selling runs? It all comes down to money or currency transfer. How will SE prove a rl cash payment from player to player? I don't support any of this, but for argument sake, throwing it out there for discussion. It actually would be nice to know what type of RMT is being dealt with during updates

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

And? What is being done about this? Nada. So, why should anything be done about people selling runs? It all comes down to money or currency transfer. How will SE prove a rl cash payment from player to player? I don't support any of this, but for argument sake, throwing it out there for discussion. It actually would be nice to know what type of RMT is being dealt with during updates

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The only RMT I'm pretty sure is even dealt with is the say chat spamming bots parked at MB's.

Buyers aren't banned at risk of losing costumers. Bots that farm the currency aren't banned because risk of losing customers. Seriously, look at the amount of pople they say they punish for botting? No where NEAR the amount of bots there are. I can count more bots I see in the daily on Balmung than bots they've banned since they started telling us how many.

So since nothing's being done about those, are gathering bots okay? is BUYING RMT okay, so long as it's not selling?

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Perhaps SE should just have a separate tab in the PF for people that want to sell content with Gil or in game items BUT the party cannot be cross world. As we all know you can't trade Gil that way, so directing buyers to discord etc clearly has RMT intentions.

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No advertising should be permitted at all, anywhere. Especially not the PF. It should also be a reportable thing for all chat channels.

If you want to advertise your FC, SE should turn the quest board at the GC area into that. Move the actual hunt quests to the board inside the adventurer's guild/inn like it is in Ishgard and Kugane. Any FC that has both existed for 30 days, and has at least 8 active members in the last 30 days would be listed. Same with Linkshells. Owners who make their FC or linkshell "closed" will not be searchable. FC's with links in their description that do not go to whitelisted url's will not be shown in results.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

The only RMT I'm pretty sure is even dealt with is the say chat spamming bots parked at MB's.

Buyers aren't banned at risk of losing costumers. Bots that farm the currency aren't banned because risk of losing customers. Seriously, look at the amount of pople they say they punish for botting? No where NEAR the amount of bots there are. I can count more bots I see in the daily on Balmung than bots they've banned since they started telling us how many.

So since nothing's being done about those, are gathering bots okay? is BUYING RMT okay, so long as it's not selling?

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I'm pretty sure they do ban the hacking gil-farming bots.

It's just the ones that actually matter and affect the game negatively on a wider scale like the DoL/H and PvP bots that don't get touched, probably for the reason you mentioned. They don't want to axe any devoted customers even if some of them are using these bots to RMT in a less obvious fashion.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm pretty sure they do ban the hacking gil-farming bots.

It's just the ones that actually matter and affect the game negatively on a wider scale like the DoL/H and PvP bots that don't get touched, probably for the reason you mentioned. They don't want to axe any devoted customers even if some of them are using these bots to RMT in a less obvious fashion.

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More likely they can't catch all the fish. At least not with the resources they have. To use the complete speeding ticket analogy. If they ban everyone who they suspect is cheating, they will have to ban all the raiders, and check every single one of them one by one. If you've ever been behind someone who sees a photo radar van or a pulled over police car, you'll know they see it, slam on the brakes and then go the correct speed for about a mile and then back to business as usual. You'll never see one cop with 50 cars pulled over. Just the people in the red cars, because they go faster /s.

In more than one instance out there, there's been a case of bulk-bans, followed by people screaming that they've been wrongfully caught. Well, no, they weren't wrongfully caught, they just ignored the flashing lights. If they were really wrongfully caught, the person who reviews this stuff would see they don't fit whatever pattern the bulk ban was designed for.

The one call center, we nicknamed the MDE (mass data entry) system "massively damaging errors", because on more than one case, we'd be told to do one thing, and then the "enforcement" by MDE would undo things, and the customer would complain about why something promised wasn't fixed or something fixed was unfixed.

At some point the cost of a mistake is more expensive than the cost of inaction. Hence manual review is more accurate, but so slow to be ineffective, where as a mass data event that isn't 100% perfect will create so much manual effort to undo that the initial MDE should have been rolled back, and to do that would rollback everyone on the server.

Anyway, SE needs to do more, these bots shouldn't be able to get to level 15, let alone 50, yet they stick around for a week and then disappear. The less obvious bots that players may be harder to distinguish between players dual-boxing, or two players on the same WiFi, so it's probably a lot harder to police.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

No advertising should be permitted at all, anywhere. Especially not the PF. It should also be a reportable thing for all chat channels.

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Hate to break it to you..the whole point of party finder is to "Advertise"

There is nothing wrong in advertising almost anything under the sun. The problem here is HOW they are using it...not just WHAT.

While like you I'm strongly against spam...lets not ruin it for everyone else.

Have GM's enforce a "relegation to other" for advertisements that do not fit the obvious roles PF's are placed.
You want to sell content?
You put it in other.
Want to recruit for your FC?
Put it in other.

If you do any of the above in "Random" roulette and it is not actually a random roulette duty...you get slapped by a GM. Loss of party finder privileges or something.
Suits me just fine.

Shoving these content clearing ads as suspicious as they are - into the other category would be fine by me...the back of the list is just fine. Out of sight out of mind.

Or at least give us the ability to "blacklist"/"block" PF creators. Also works well.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Hate to break it to you..the whole point of party finder is to "Advertise"

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You knew exactly what I was talking about. This is not the only game where "abusing the freeform text of the party finder is a thing". For what it's worth, the PF is at least out of sight by default. In other games the freeform text ends up in the global chat/server messages, and is extremely more annoying. Advertising garbage in the PF should never have been a thing.

Here's a screenshot from FFXIV from February found here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...g-Party-Finder
https://i.imgur.com/iZYs7hR.png

What do other games have?

For example... Blade and Soul: https://support.bladeandsoul.com/hc/...port-Spammers-
https://support.bladeandsoul.com/hc/.../spammer02.jpg

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

You knew exactly what I was talking about. This is not the only game where "abusing the freeform text of the party finder is a thing". For what it's worth, the PF is at least out of sight by default. In other games the freeform text ends up in the global chat/server messages, and is extremely more annoying. Advertising garbage in the PF should never have been a thing.

Here's a screenshot from FFXIV from February found here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...g-Party-Finder
https://i.imgur.com/iZYs7hR.png

What do other games have?

For example... Blade and Soul: https://support.bladeandsoul.com/hc/...port-Spammers-
https://support.bladeandsoul.com/hc/.../spammer02.jpg

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We can only hope really.

Doesn't it technically break two ToS rules to sell and ultimate fight?

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Originally Posted by Nerini

Doesn't it technically break two ToS rules to sell and ultimate fight?

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It does, but they have no in-game methods of confirming whether or not they're actually violating the ToS, so they can't punish them.

They really should just have a "No advertising in PF" policy, though.

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Originally Posted by Nerini

Doesn't it technically break two ToS rules to sell and ultimate fight?

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Square doesn't care. I'm surprised more RMT sellers don't advertise on the official forums.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

Square doesn't care. I'm surprised more RMT sellers don't advertise on the official forums.

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Forum moderators do not play. I got a nine day suspension for nercoing old threads.

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Originally Posted by Rogatum

Forum moderators do not play. I got a nine day suspension for nercoing old threads.

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Not to mention how active they have been lately. They are pretty quick to nip things in the butt if they feel its appropriate.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

It does, but they have no in-game methods of confirming whether or not they're actually violating the ToS, so they can't punish them.

They really should just have a "No advertising in PF" policy, though.

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Let's do a "No advertising to third party applications."

While that still screws over some of the more dedicated FC's, it would at least allow someone actually selling services for in game currency to be able to do that. I don't mind seeing crafters advertise their services, or FC's recruiting. But once they refuse to give any information besides, "Add discord" it gets a little obvious.

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Originally Posted by Rogatum

Forum moderators do not play. I got a nine day suspension for nercoing old threads.

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It's odd because I'm not sure what rule it breaks to advertise it the same way.