Why the hate with endgame fights?

Idk I think because we get handed everything so we most player become lazy.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

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You are omitting the fact Cross-World Party Finder didn't yet exist, thus forcing people all onto one server if they wished to raid together. That alone likely contributed to the increased participation. Another factor is Midas still wasn't properly balanced as A6S outpaced A7S even following the initial nerf. Midcores weren't complaining about Midas, the more casual minded raiders were because they couldn't get the gear. Now I will admit, after the disaster of Gordias, they should have initially responded with Creator difficulty to ease everyone back into raiding then followed up with Midas level. Regardless, Creator had superior numbers yet they nerfed it again. And instead of properly scaling each tier as they claimed prior to Stormblood's launch, they want to leave Savage to potentially stagnate at its current level. That's the complaint most people have.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

What? That doesn't make any sense. So if the content is harder it doesn't count. If the content is easier is to try to make the game more casual. You are clearly contradicting yourself.

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That isn't a contradiction. It goes to show how poorly SE scales content. Deltascape is basically midcore whereas Ultimate is the hardest content this game has ever released. The gap between them is enormous. An equivalent would be suddenly putting Shinryu Extreme in Trial roulette. Asking for Savage to be closer to Midas difficulty doesn't mean everyone wants Ultimate.

Do people hate it? I think it's more like

A) lazy/entitled collectors who are upset they can't complete their mount collection and watch Netflix at the same time
B) People with a vendetta against raiders (as if "raider" is even a type of person???)
C) people who would maybe try it with close friends, but take criticism very personally/get depressed so they stay away from PF due to anxiety
D) People who don't have the time

I'm personally a C and D person, but that doesn't mean I want the devs to take Savage away from other players. I am envious of the people with their danger noodle mounts, but oh well!

Gotta love how the OP asks why a segment of the population doesn't like endgame content...and when those people oblige...I've seen a significant number of OP's replies aimed at insulting them or flat out saying this opinion is wrong (somehow OP thinks opinions are wrong...).

Just one of many reasons I've started to wish developers would just stop having official forums for their MMOs. Productive conversation rarely happens here. LOL

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

Gotta love how the OP asks why a segment of the population doesn't like endgame content...and when those people oblige...I've seen a significant number of OP's replies aimed at insulting them or flat out saying this opinion is wrong (somehow OP thinks opinions are wrong...).

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Could you please quote where the OP, specifically the OP, has been insulting people who disagree? Every instance of it you can find within this thread please, since you did say "a significant number".

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Just one of many reasons I've started to wish developers would just stop having official forums for their MMOs. Productive conversation rarely happens here. LOL

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So...why even bother coming to the OF of games if you know you're unlikely to find productive conversation?

I mean...just see any of the replies to folks that have commented that they're turned off by what they perceive as a toxic community? There's several (admittedly not all OP) on the first few pages.

Why am I here? Boredom, mostly, and not a lot of time to game. Will occasionally look through some of the photo threads...cause it's hard for those to turn into a venomous hell hole. And yeah, I'll occasionally click on a thread that catches my interest...expecting the worse.

But do tell me, since you seem angered by my opinion, what exactly has this thread accomplished? How is the community better off from the last 30 pages?

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

I mean...just see any of the replies to folks that have commented that they're turned off by what they perceive as a toxic community? There's several (admittedly not all OP) on the first few pages.

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Your point is remarkably less valid when you have to admit that no, they're not all OP.

OP had one post on page 1: the OP. On page 2 they responded to a lot of people in a single post, can't find anything I'd call negative there. Page 3, again nothing really negative; certainly none of her telling anyone their opinion is invalid. In fact, on page 15:

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Well...I did say this was an open discussion. And as far as I know, it still is. I have welcomed open opinions - yes, me and Riyah have been going back and forth for quite some time, but I don't view that as a bad thing. It's a debate. You've seen Presidential Debates, right? They engage in similar circular arguments throughout their three debates. We just happen to be passionate about our stances. Either we'll agree to disagree, or we'll find a middle ground.

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This in response to a poster asking why many people were responding to Riyah's posts still. So in my search I've found one example to the opposite of your claim--that OP is disrespecting opinions, and none to support your claim. I don't necessarily care what people other than the OP have or have not been saying, as your original claim was OP made the conversation and was stonewalling opposing opinions on it.

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Why am I here? Boredom, mostly, and not a lot of time to game. Will occasionally look through some of the photo threads...cause it's hard for those to turn into a venomous hell hole. And yeah, I'll occasionally click on a thread that catches my interest...expecting the worse.

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So boredom and a love for the taste of salt. That's basically why I'm on the forums too.

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But do tell me, since you seem angered by my opinion, what exactly has this thread accomplished? How is the community better off from the last 30 pages?

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I never said it was better off, or that the thread did add to the community. But what has it detracted from the community? The time of people who responded? That was their choice to spend it, either way.

If nothing else, then it's net-neutral, and there are no issues. Perhaps you shouldn't read your own emotions into my post, which merely called you on your attempt to drive in and drop a comment smearing the OP and trying to drive off.

Ahh, I see the issue, I mixed the OP up with another poster that was responding frequently since they had similar avatars. Apologies to the OP in that regards.

That said: you comment that this exchange is a net neutral in terms of impact on community. But let's consider this: Go through almost any of the pages and you'll see people making baseless accusations that those who haven't done endgame content and/or don't want to must be things like lazy, entitled, terrible at the game, etc. It's funny to me that people are also arguing...quite angrily at times...that anyone commenting that they perceive the community as toxic is wrong or that they have ulterior motives.

Think from the perspective of someone who may not have done endgame comment yet (and potentially a bit anxious about it). It is impossible to see how someone may feel indirectly targeted by such comments might walk away with a perception that, yeah, the endgame community to an extent is kind of toxic?


Instead of being angry at the people who are stating an opinion, endgame communities (in any MMO) would do a lot better to try and stop trying to find, or even manufacture, the worst in people.

Yes, let's not be angry at people who speak of end game fights like they've done it all yet have 0 savage experience. /s

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Yes, let's not be angry at people who speak of end game fights like they've done it all yet have 0 savage experience. /s

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Dude you know that's not who I am referring to. Unless you're just making another one of the numerous baseless assumptions I just referred to.

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

Gotta love how the OP asks why a segment of the population doesn't like endgame content...and when those people oblige...I've seen a significant number of OP's replies aimed at insulting them or flat out saying this opinion is wrong (somehow OP thinks opinions are wrong...).

Just one of many reasons I've started to wish developers would just stop having official forums for their MMOs. Productive conversation rarely happens here. LOL

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You know what I love? People accusing someone of "insult" around when there isn't any. Same thing with "toxic" and "elitist".

If only those same people could actually provide quote or quotes to back that up. Hmm....

On the opposite end, Jerichai, there are just as many people villifying people who enjoy hardcore content, and trying to push the view that raiding cannot be fun into the public cognition just because they themselves do not find it fun.

I'm not angry at anyone for stating their opinions, but that doesn't mean I won't dispute them. An opinion cannot necessarily be wrong, but it can be founded on false notions of reality.

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

Think from the perspective of someone who may not have done endgame comment yet (and potentially a bit anxious about it). It is impossible to see how someone may feel indirectly targeted by such comments might walk away with a perception that, yeah, the endgame community to an extent is kind of toxic?

Instead of being angry at the people who are stating an opinion, endgame communities (in any MMO) would do a lot better to try and stop trying to find, or even manufacture, the worst in people.

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Are you trying to say say that someone might be discouraged from participating in endgame content because posters in this thread have been criticized for not participating in endgame content?

Let's call a spade a spade - Rhiya and Bobs haven't participated in Savage content at the same level as Sebazy, Hyomin, Cass and Kavia AND DUAL WHO IS THE BEST have. This makes the opinions on Savage content and how it plays/changes it could use infinately more informed on the side of the debate with the actual raiders.

If I said "My car is driving funny, think I might need to check the tire pressure" and you said "Nope, it needs an oil change" when you haven't driven my car what makes you entitled to an opinion here? Even more specifically what makes your opinion valid? Nothing. You haven't even been in the car much less driven it.

There is no down side to pointing out that someone isn't qualified for something. If there are any new players out there this conversation would encourage them to participate in endgame so that their opinions are respected because they're informed instead of just talking out their butts like some people have here.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Sebazy, Hyomin, Cass and Kavia have.

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Not even worth an honorable mention? I'm hurt Moro ;;

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Not even worth an honorable mention? I'm hurt Moro ;;

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Oh god! I am the literal worst. I went over this post like 5 times because I knew I was forgetting people.

If it makes you feel any better my first iteration left out Sebazy so perhaps take it as "She's so good she doesn't even need mentioning" as I assume that's where my brain was.


Edited for accuracy. <3

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Oh god! I am the literal worst. I went over this post like 5 times because I knew I was forgetting people.

If it makes you feel any better my first iteration left out Sebazy so perhaps take it as "She's so good she doesn't even need mentioning" as I assume that's where my brain was.

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Seeing the list just made me chuckle out loud, so I had to say something :P I appreciate the compliment either way!

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

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Not sure where I referred to the people you mentioned...but okay...

Go to the first page. The third response is basically "People who don't want to/haven't done end game content are lazy and entitled" and it has been up-voted 25 times and I've seen no one from end game content step in and say "Hey you're kind of making a blanket statement there buddy". And that's not the only response like that in this thread...and it's FAR from the first time these kinds of assumptions about the more casual crowd have been made.

My comment has nothing to do with critiquing the content itself, I have zero issue with the existence of harder content and in fact happier when MMOs provide a nice sampling across challenge levels. My point is I saw a lot of folks condemn people for stating that they avoid endgame due to the perception of toxicity in that community...while not acknowledging that there are a lot of people in this thread acting in a way some might deem as toxic.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

You know what I love? People accusing someone of "insult" around when there isn't any. Same thing with "toxic" and "elitist".

If only those same people could actually provide quote or quotes to back that up. Hmm....

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Hmm, seems similar to making blanket statements about casual players being lazy, entitled, stupid...though that may just be me.

(Also I realized a few posts ago that I mixed the OP up with another poster and apologized to OP)

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

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It is virtually impossible to not act in a way some might deem toxic though. For some people the word 'parse' is equivalent to harassment of some kind. I agree calling all non-raiders lazy is inappropriate but you're also pulling from page 1 of a 30+ page thread.

Also based on the number of like I asume you're talking about this...

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Originally Posted by MuseTraveller

Judging from all the nerf posts that pop all the time, -clears throat-
"Because I want to clear everything with minimal effort and time investment! Paying for a sub means all content shouldn't be just available to me, it should be given to me!"

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.. which is very clearly aimed in a humorous direction. I'm going to be honest I went to go see who made this toxic post you're talking about to yell at them if I had them on discord and found this. This isn't toxic it's funny. And it has 26 likes now.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

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I mean...there's more examples like 2 posts under that highly upvoted that blanket non-raiders in a negative light with no basis of fact supporting them. And while you deem it a joke, can you be certain everyone else will perceive it as such.

But by all means, you all can go on being mystified by and angry at the reality that some folks consider the end game community as toxic.

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

I mean...there's more examples like 2 posts under that highly upvoted that blanket non-raiders in a negative light with no basis of fact supporting them. And while you deem it a joke, can you be certain everyone else will perceive it as such.

But by all means, you all can go on being mystified by and angry at the reality that some folks consider the end game community as toxic.

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I'm not mystified by it or angry about it at all because I've known for years that people with no common sense existed. Takes the mystery right out :D

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I'm not mystified by it or angry about it at all because I've known for years that people with no common sense existed. Takes the mystery right out :D

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If you think the fact that some people who decide they don't want to interact with those who appear to be okay with spreading falsehoods about them are lacking lacking common sense...I'm not sure what to tell you.

The end game community on the one hand seems to get more people into the higher levels of content...by treating reluctant onlookers with basic respect seems to be a stretch they're not willing to take.

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

If you think the fact that some people who decide they don't want to interact with those who appear to be okay with spreading falsehoods about them are lacking lacking common sense...I'm not sure what to tell you.

The end game community on the one hand seems to get more people into the higher levels of content...by treating reluctant onlookers with basic respect seems to be a stretch they're not willing to take.

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You say these things, please back them up. Give me examples. I wouod be more than happy to at least distance myself from anyone who has said anything along the lines of "all players who haven't completed Savage are lazy/stupid/etc." which is the claim you have made but you haven't quoted a single post.

Put your money where your mouth is.

I pointed out multiple on the first page...we literally just talked about this as you dismissed it 'as a joke'.

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Originally Posted by MuseTraveller

Judging from all the nerf posts that pop all the time, -clears throat-
"Because I want to clear everything with minimal effort and time investment! Paying for a sub means all content shouldn't be just available to me, it should be given to me!"

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

To be frank? People are entitled and lazy. There's really not much else to it. They don't want to do the work but they want what ever doing the work would earn them.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

Some people don't have the capacity or the will to tackle endgame content. yet they still feel they are owed it and attempt to get carried. if they can't they complain.

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

I pointed out multiple on the first page...we literally just talked about this as you dismissed it 'as a joke'.

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That. Is. Not. Toxic.

If you are that easily offended I wish you the best luck out there in the real world with people who can yell instead of just type in all caps or use a bold font.

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

If you think the fact that some people who decide they don't want to interact with those who appear to be okay with spreading falsehoods about them are lacking lacking common sense...I'm not sure what to tell you.

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At this point, both casuals and raiders have had lies and slander made about them by the other side. Outliers of one end call the others lazy and unwilling to work; outliers on the other end call their opponents "toxic" and "unwilling to treat onlookers with basic respect." Let's dispense with both here and now: those are outliers on both ends.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

At this point, both casuals and raiders have had lies and slander made about them by the other side. Outliers of one end call the others lazy and unwilling to work; outliers on the other end call their opponents "toxic" and "unwilling to treat onlookers with basic respect." Let's dispense with both here and now: those are outliers on both ends.

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So much this sentiment. Bads are bad no matter how competent they are. Most people are not bad people though. Neither the entire casual or raiding community is a cesspool, rather both have bad eggs.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

That. Is. Not. Toxic.

If you are that easily offended I wish you the best luck out there in the real world with people who can yell instead of just type in all caps or use a bold font.

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Hey look....you respond to my recommendation of not making baseless assumptions about people...by making baseless assumptions about me.

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

But by all means, you all can go on being mystified by and angry at the reality that some folks consider the end game community as toxic.

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The mystifying thing is that the most vocal of people who refuse to do end game content because of "toxicity," are usually far more toxic than any sort of raider posting, myself included.

The worst I've seen the most vocal posters "for" raiding do is call people lazy or entitled. Myself I've called people arrogant or ignorant.

Meanwhile, I've seen "toxic jerks," "scrubs," "assholes," "I will report anyone I so much as suspect using a parser," "you're garbage at this game if you need a parser," "you're not good at this game you just think you are," "savage isn't an achievement," etc.

I could actually go back and quote most of these posts, hell, some of them are in this thread. I am also too lazy though, because I don't care that much. In fact, more often than not, despite all the insults we've received, we don't spend all our time whining how toxic the casual community is towards raiders because of their preconceived notion we are. This is because we're able to objectively acknowledge that only a small group of casual players are nasty towards raiders.

Let's just stop with this "but their FEELINGS," rhetoric. If someone is turned away from raiding because of someone on the forums implying they're lazy or entitled, then they have bigger problems. Unless a post is aimed at you specifically you should just never take it personally. It's not the responsibility of another person to watch out for your insecurities. Especially if they don't know you.

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

Hey look....you respond to my recommendation of not making baseless assumptions about people...by making baseless assumptions about me.

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They said, "if." It provides benefit of the doubt. It is not a baseless assumption. Stop reaching.

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

Hey look....you respond to my recommendation of not making baseless assumptions about people...by making baseless assumptions about me.

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How is it an assumption to say "you are offended by the inoffensive thing, the world has a lot worse out there for you" when you have said this thing offends you?

The only thing I'm assuming is that your multiple posts ranting about this one post accurately express your feelings about this post.

Stop trying to weasel out of this. I've made my point, I'm done derailing Kavia's thread. Suck it up and admit you're wrong. Or don't, I'll ignore you either way :D

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

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It's alright. Like I said before, it's an open discussion. I'll challenge posts, sure, but I do welcome the debate. And given how many posts we've had thus far, I feel this is a discussion that should be had.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

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Quote me where I said that I personally was offended by those statements? My comments were to say that people could interpret blanket statements like those negatively, and as a result, be a reason they view the so called end game community as toxic. But please, as you requested on me, show me where I said that I myself was offended by the statements you asked me to quote.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Not even worth an honorable mention? I'm hurt Moro ;;

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same

/10char

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

same

/10char

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You exist on a higher echelon.

Your posts are even more savage than the content, usually.

(also same btw but the last post I made was like page 16 so I didn't bother saying anything)

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

Quote me where I said that I personally was offended by those statements? My comments were to say that people could interpret blanket statements like those negatively, and as a result, be a reason they view the so called end game community as toxic. But please, as you requested on me, show me where I said that I myself was offended by the statements you asked me to quote.

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This isn't about personal offense, it never was. It started because you said this tread could be a net-negative because it could discourage people from raiding with it's toxic comments. I disagree and think it's a great discussion to have.


When prompted for these toxic comments (several times) you eventually pulled a few perfectly reasonable comments to quote.

Something in your head ticks the 'offensive' box when you read those comments or you wouldn't be trying to use them to defend your original comment. Either your original preposition was built on what you thought was here and you couldn't find anything actually problematic (god I hate that word) or you believe these things to be evidence to your credit.

So which is it? Am I right or was your original post built on a shaky, unsupportable premise?

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

same

/10char

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Originally Posted by Oscura

You exist on a higher echelon.

Your posts are even more savage than the content, usually.

(also same btw but the last post I made was like page 16 so I didn't bother saying anything)

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My deepest apologies ;-;

The more I reread things searching for this apparent 'toxicity' the more people I feel like I've missed.

If I could mail you both apology-gil I would <3

Also as I was reading through things again searching for this toxicity I came across a gem of a post from Kavia herself. She was offering to heal with someone through Savage who hadn't done it before. Anyone who read this thread and took note of some of this apparent toxicity had to try to reconcile that bad behavior with a no-strings-atrached offer to help.

How can this thread be anything but positive press for the raiding community in this game?

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

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The problem is that you've made a declaration that any example I provide is not 'toxic' as an absolute. You're not leaving any room for personal interpretation of those comments, and I'm kind of surprised you can't see how someone might not enjoyed being labeled lazy or entitled by someone who barely knows them.

I mean, let's look at it from another perspective:

Let's say you're at a party and see someone new and think about trying to go meet them. Your friend who's with you informs you they before having met you, this new person told your friend he thought you were lazy/stuck-up/etc (based solely on appearance or maybe catching part of a conversation you were having in passing). Would you be eager to invest more time with that person? Even if you personally could work through that, could you at least see where someone else might not be so willing, especially if they have other people around/things to do to invest that energy in instead? And it's not even about being easily offended. I think being a bit defensive towards people who make such a broad, negative judgement about you with no real knowledge about you as an individual is just about self care.

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

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Some of those posts with no context surrounding them could put someone off if they were especially sensitive but I think anyone smart enough to play this game at that level is also going to understand that the posts above that post came first and likely effected what those posters had to say.

If an entirely blank slate of a person were to read this thread I'd imagine they would be much more scared of the casual playerbase than the raiders and I think if you looked at things objectively you'd agree.

I can't take most of what you're saying seriously because I hear it all through the filter of you having a clearly anti-raiding community outlook.

It's alright to disagree but I don't think you're gaining any ground here and it seems like you want to. You aren't going to convince a bunch of raiders or people with raiding friends that that community is this toxic cesspool because they already know better. You also aren't going to convince them that a thread like this offering frank discussion about that community and it's needs is bad press because they've been here and seen what they've put out into the world in comparison to people like Rhiya.

This thread is, as Kavia said, a debate but at this point at least there is a clear winner and it's been a landslide victory.

Considering no one can even spell my name right it seems, I'm not sure.

And I see a couple of us actually saying why we dislike things and giving reasons, and the rest of the people essentially just defending their own raids as well as essentially saying "You must clear OS4 to be able to talk on it." Not like me nor others have zero savage experience, nor that savage in this game is a long, multi-tiered fight that you need to do multiple steps that take months; we're talking four single bosses that you can spend a couple hours learning all of their attacks, and maybe 6 hours to 2-4 weeks to fully defeat. All of the fights you even prep by watching a video or faq to understand every attack in theory, then go in to do it in practice.

As fo Kaiva's help, she isn't even on my data center. So it looks good as a gesture but was useless to me.

To be blunt, it wouldn't matter if I was perfectly polite. Whenever you say anything that counteracts the values of people, they will always take the negative stance against it. People are too wrapped up in raids as a form of identity that no real challenge to them will ever be tolerated; any real discussion of them just warps back to reaffirming the shared belief, i.e. raids are wonderful and players just need to git gud. And when you get piled on enough, you really start to get annoyed with people and the whole shared belief itself. You get tired of people always overemphasizing ice mages, or complaining about the skill of the playerbase despite things going really well, or teh many little myths that build up and get reinforced, and it creates this big divide between the myth and what you experience in game.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

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Umm, no my friend...it would be strange for me to have an anti-raid outlook considering I've raided across multiple MMOs for more than a decade. I do enjoy the content, and most of all, I enjoy bringing people into the content who have been hesitant to try it for a multitude of reasons (many I can emphasize with as someone who's dealt consistently with depression and anxiety over the years).

Here's the issue I feel like you keep missing: Perception vs. Reality. I have never argued as a whole that the raid community is a toxic wasteland. That said, I can also understand how those 'on the outside' with no leg in the raiding game could perceive many needlessly harsh comments that quite frankly are a daily occurrence on any MMO forum as a sign of a toxic community. Are their perceptions in line with reality? No, cause the raid community doesn't have an agenda to go out of its way to be toxic. But when you consider that many of these outlying negative comments typically go unanswered (as well as many times GD being skewed negatively) you have to consider how that impacts perception. Considering those not raiding likely don't have the benefit of interacting with those raiders who aren't complete assholes, then these kinds of blanket statements make up a larger percentage of a person's perception of the community. Perception vs. Reality.

My main goal in continuing this conversation is that I noticed quite a bit of anger/frustration towards people earlier in the thread who stated that they avoided raiding due to their perceptions of a toxic community. Some went to imply that these people were lying or had ulterior motives. I just don't see how this helps. Acting in this manner does nothing to try to understand how their perception developed, and worse yet, probably just helps to affirm their perceptions. I really wish folks would try more often to engage in a good spirited way to help people see past their first impressions.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

People are too wrapped up in raids as a form of identity that no real challenge to them will ever be tolerated; any real discussion of them just warps back to reaffirming the shared belief, i.e. raids are wonderful and players just need to git gud.

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Whereas you do the same but in the opposite direction: you always wrap around to the idea that everything is easy to a raider, and that raiders are a uniquely toxic subclass of player.