When will we get the PVP system for PVE ?

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

There's no reason why the next action in the middle of a combo would be anything other than the next part of the combo

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That's not actually true. If a lone PLD is trying to carry a group after a near wipe they'll probably FB > RB loop instead of finishing the combo to keep up MP for Clemency. If they were forced to go on to RA or GB, they'd risk running out of MP much faster. Something that applies to all classes is restarting a combo on a low HP enemy so that you can attack subsequent enemies with a high potency attack. So if there are 2 mobs around, and one has only a tiny sliver of HP left, you're better off breaking your combo on it to attack the next mob with the second portion of your combo than using the combo ender and attacking the next mob with the weak combo starter. The exception would be if they were both next to each other and you could switch targets quickly, but that might not always be the case.

In the first case, automated combos could be crippling and cause what could have been a clear to become a wipe. In the second it's just optimization, but I think it's fun to pull off, and it's something you'd lose if the combo system forced you to complete a combo.

Don't forget MCH does not hit them in order in PvE.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Why don't we let the game play itself while we're at it, since we just want one button for 3 abilities.

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Let's be honest here, if ur rotation is 1 2 3 in what world would it be bad to have that consolidated to 1 button that transitions? It would clear up a lot of bloat to allow SE to implement more ogcd abilities and whatnot.

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Originally Posted by Clicked

PVP has this because human opponents are unpredictable and challenging, so adding a multi-button rotation is unnecessary to keep you on your toes.

PVE is largely scripted so if combos were reduced like in PVP, it would be a lot of standing still pushing 1 -> 1 -> 1 -> 1 -> 1....

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Which would not be much different than pressing 1 > 2 > 3 > 1 > 2 > 3.
But if they made it 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1, then we'd have more hotbar slots open for oGCDs.

Not interested in that. And don't want that especially with MNK.

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Originally Posted by Sanctify

Let's be honest here, if ur rotation is 1 2 3 in what world would it be bad to have that consolidated to 1 button that transitions? It would clear up a lot of bloat to allow SE to implement more ogcd abilities and whatnot.

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But my rotation isnt 1-2-3. It's 1-2-3-1-6-S2-1-6-S1-1-6-S1.

A full rotation is more than 1 combo.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

That's not actually true. If a lone PLD is trying to carry a group after a near wipe they'll probably FB > RB loop instead of finishing the combo to keep up MP for Clemency. If they were forced to go on to RA or GB, they'd risk running out of MP much faster. Something that applies to all classes is restarting a combo on a low HP enemy so that you can attack subsequent enemies with a high potency attack. So if there are 2 mobs around, and one has only a tiny sliver of HP left, you're better off breaking your combo on it to attack the next mob with the second portion of your combo than using the combo ender and attacking the next mob with the weak combo starter. The exception would be if they were both next to each other and you could switch targets quickly, but that might not always be the case.

In the first case, automated combos could be crippling and cause what could have been a clear to become a wipe. In the second it's just optimization, but I think it's fun to pull off, and it's something you'd lose if the combo system forced you to complete a combo.

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Technically, they could still break the combo.
Since there would be 2 combo buttons, they'd do the 2 presses for FB RB, and then press their combo button for the other combo, which would have dropped back to the 1st skill in the combo, and that skill being identical would allow them to then press the first combo button to get RB again.

Haha skill bloat xD Have you played whm recently?

You guys don't realise it now, maybe because some of you haven't done a lot of PvP, but these combo buttons kills the fun, and feeling of mastery of a class. You think you want this, but you'll regret it. As a survivor of the SB PvP changes, turn back now, you've been warned :V

Also, those combo buttons would not help AST, WHM, SCH, BRD (and MCH based on what someone said earlier) at all.
Also, I played WAR for a bit, and while I am no expert, the with the "branching" combos, You'd still click the majority of the abilities, making it almost useless.

Branching as in 1-2-3 (emnity combo)
.......................\
..........................4-5 (buff combo)
........................... \
..............................6 (gauge builder combo)

Forcing this change onto PVE would honestly make me consider moving on from the game.

Early game already suffers from being incredibly boring due to only having 2-3 keys to press. Why anyone would want to extend that to max level content is beyond me.

And if I'm remembering correctly, MCH doesn't hit 123 either. A change such as this would make that job impossible to play as it is currently.

Imagine playing on PC hitting 2 buttons. You're saying that this will open more slots for oGCD, but did you thought about cd on them? It will take like 30 or more seconds to press them again and we'll just sit with our 2 buttons, what a fun experience, especially in leveling for newcomers who wouldn't even have oGCD.
Let me give you example, you'll invite your friend, who just left another mmo to play FF with you and he will spam one button and over and over again, sometimes pushing his another 2 buttons that will have 30 seconds reset, until he reaches lvl 50. But he wouldn't, he will drop game before even reaching 30, because first question he will ask is why he's pushing one button over and over, this is suppose to be a game, right? At least seeing new buttons on screen and actually pushing different ones makes A DIFFERENCE.
In the end, reworking old skills and adding new effects on them is way better than switching to a combo with 2.5 GCD to bear with.

No don't take away MUH BUTTONS!

But really guys, don't think black or white. Ofc they wouldn't force this, but couldn't they just add extra macro options for skills/combos for players that want it? So you wouldn't HAVE to use it if you don't wanna. I play with a controller, so it would be nice for skills it might work for, like Chaos Thrust combo.

Just... more MACRO options, idk.

God who necro'd this nasty thread? Shame on you.

I wish they'd add combo buttons that you could choice to use or not use. Like , for instance, for PLD, you could have Goring Blade and Royal Authority on your bar , or just a combo button that would switch similar to the pvp stuff. Or hell, be able to make macros that will only use an action if it's in "combo ready" state! I'd be fine with making combo macros if there was a "/" command that would work that way.


Edited: Didn't realize this was such an old thread, but still, ability bloat is real and annoying.

There is only one reasonable answer to the thread title:

https://media.tenor.com/images/a1a14...d254/tenor.gif

Hard pass for me.

It's true that combat in this game is not super complex, which is why something as minor as pressing 1-2-3 vs 1-1-1 actually makes a noticeable difference. I can maybe see it working better for some classes like DRG, but seems like a clear dumbing down of classes with branching combos like MNK, NIN,and WAR.

Good examples are having to adjust skill order when peeling off mid combo for boss jumps or mechanics. Or multi-dotting when adds come out. These little pockets of optimization are crucial for differentiating jobs and for how some people enjoy gameplay.

That being said, button bloat is a thing, I would just prefer SE stick more to ability pruning/consolidation/upgrading.

Wow, this IS an old thread, but it does serve to illustrate that the problem of skill bloat hasn't gotten better.

Out of curiosity I counted the keybinds I have in my UI. I have ~50. Three hotbars in a 12 'numberpad' layout with shift and ctrl modifiers, three that use the bottom three slots above those numberpads that are bound to the F keys with modifiers, one additional hotbar in a stacked 3 configuration that is bound to the mouse scroll wheel with shift and ctrl modifiers, and another one I recently added to deal with the 'Duty Action' buttons SE thinks we need because apparently, we don't have enough buttons to press already. That's another 3. 50+ buttons and every single one of them has a skill in it that at some point, I am expected to use.

Some are used more than others but the problem of skill bloat is real and there is absolutely no reason for any game to require the sheer number of buttons this one does. Our UI gets more cluttered with each xpac and I truly worry for what is to come in shadowbringers. The visual field of the game is so cramped that it really detracts from the immersion. UI should be a tool, not the focus, and in this game it is DEFINITELY the focus.

I hope they make SOME kind of changes, because this bloated UI can't really take much more. Neither can my carpal tunnel.

I would prefer that they focus on trimming abilities that almost no one uses. Combat doesn't need streamlined to the degree that PvP is. It just needs to be consolidated a bit.

Still I would like to have the option for it in PVE. As a DRK I only have 2 combos so I am fine with this change as long as its optional.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Wow, this IS an old thread, but it does serve to illustrate that the problem of skill bloat hasn't gotten better.

Out of curiosity I counted the keybinds I have in my UI. I have ~50. Three hotbars in a 12 'numberpad' layout with shift and ctrl modifiers, three that use the bottom three slots above those numberpads that are bound to the F keys with modifiers, one additional hotbar in a stacked 3 configuration that is bound to the mouse scroll wheel with shift and ctrl modifiers, and another one I recently added to deal with the 'Duty Action' buttons SE thinks we need because apparently, we don't have enough buttons to press already. That's another 3. 50+ buttons and every single one of them has a skill in it that at some point, I am expected to use.

Some are used more than others but the problem of skill bloat is real and there is absolutely no reason for any game to require the sheer number of buttons this one does. Our UI gets more cluttered with each xpac and I truly worry for what is to come in shadowbringers. The visual field of the game is so cramped that it really detracts from the immersion. UI should be a tool, not the focus, and in this game it is DEFINITELY the focus.

I hope they make SOME kind of changes, because this bloated UI can't really take much more. Neither can my carpal tunnel.

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I’m curious which job you’re talking about that has 50 buttons. I know PLD and SMN/SCH can get bloaty (the latter two with pet actions), but I don’t think anything else has 50 buttons worth of necessary buttons.

You might be limiting your thinking to the most absolute bare-bones minimal rotation you could be doing in an encounter (and that's what a lot of folks end up doing if they are using a controller). In addition to that rotation, there's also all situational actions that don't fit into a rotation but still can be useful at times, the role actions that offer buffs and debuffs and potions and medicines to weave in and out. Add to that the generic buttons for limit break, sprinting, duty actions, marking actions, and that's just stuff you might need in an encounter. You'll also need space for actions that aren't necessarily essential in battle but still should be hotkeyed, like travel buttons or your mount.

SE could stand to sit down with the kits every job has and decide whether or not they really need some of the things in there. They have started compressing some tiered spells together which is a good start, but there's still a lot of kit that could be pruned and other abilities either buffed to compensate or the encounters retuned with the new parameters.

Of course, the encounters being basically nothing more than a 'memorize the dodgefest pattern' is why our kits expanded to the bloated level they did in the first place, but that's a wholly different discussion.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

You might be limiting your thinking to the most absolute bare-bones minimal rotation you could be doing in an encounter (and that's what a lot of folks end up doing if they are using a controller). In addition to that rotation, there's also all situational actions that don't fit into a rotation but still can be useful at times, the role actions that offer buffs and debuffs and potions and medicines to weave in and out. Add to that the generic buttons for limit break, sprinting, duty actions, marking actions, and that's just stuff you might need in an encounter. You'll also need space for actions that aren't necessarily essential in battle but still should be hotkeyed, like travel buttons or your mount.

SE could stand to sit down with the kits every job has and decide whether or not they really need some of the things in there. They have started compressing some tiered spells together which is a good start, but there's still a lot of kit that could be pruned and other abilities either buffed to compensate or the encounters retuned with the new parameters.

Of course, the encounters being basically nothing more than a 'memorize the dodgefest pattern' is why our kits expanded to the bloated level they did in the first place, but that's a wholly different discussion.

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I play with a controller. Always have. For 3.5 years. No, I am not thinking about the “absolute bare-bones”—I’m thinking of the necessary buttons for battle content. There are no instances where you’ll have 50+ buttons on your hotbars.

Role Actions: with the exceptions of tanks and healers, DPS have role actions they do not need/will rarely ever need (see: Physical Ranged Role Actions, Melee DPS Crutch). Those that you do not need you can put somewhere on your hotbars that you do not need to access as frequently if you really want to assign them to a slot. Personally, I have actions like this keybound to my Numpad, back when I played on PS4 with a Bluetooth Keyboard, and now that I’m on PC. Works just fine for situational skills I’ll use maybe once or twice a fight (e.g., Head Graze in O3S or O7S).

Pots/Medicines: these only matter if you’re doing end-game raiding. Otherwise, they don’t need to be on your bar.

Sprint: Controller users can set one of their analog sticks (R3 or L3) to Execute Macro #98/Execute Macro #99 for Sprint. That’s what I’ve done. Sprint is not on my main bar—just my auxiliary cooldown bar so I can see its CD timer.

Duty Actions: Duty Actions can be used with R3/L3 for controller users. You don’t need them on your hotbar—there’s very few fights where they’re used anyways, if you consider all the different duties in this game.

Marking Actions: I have these set up on a horizontal hotbar and keybound if I really need to use them.
Travel buttons/mount: See above. Otherwise, you can also just open the Start menu in game and use them from there—with controller or KB/M.


While there are skills that could stand to be deleted (e.g., Repelling Shot, Freeze, Tether, Blank Shot, Fluid Aura—just to name a few), there’s no need for mass consolidation like there is in PvP.

oh okay. we're bringing this up again...
I disagree with consolidating combos into 1 button each.

To me personally it's less engaging. yes you can argue the end result is the same but for some reason having to press different buttons makes it feel more engaging. I have to pay more attention to what i'm doing.

Also i'm a filthy mouse clicker so to me personally 1-2-3 is VERY different from 1-1-1

Also I find it amusing how one of the complaints regarding Lancer is that it only has to press 2 buttons while leveling up and that makes it boring but here we are asking for every class to just spam 1-2 (3?) buttons in every content lol

Would love to see them consolidated, right now it's like being asked to remember to inhale and exhale - combos are just a thing that's going in the background after 50 when they start adding more interesting/developed mechanics to jobs.

So maybe while players are leveling they can leave the combos on separate buttons to make it feel like they're actually interesting, and then when you start unlocking the job's core mechanics they can add a consolidated QoL combo button that players can choose to use or not.

I'm not really sure what you are arguing other than you have a different setup than I do. Nothing you said suggests that I shouldn't have the number of buttons I do as the game currently is right now. You just configure your UI differently because of using a controller.

I don't use a controller, therefore all my skills are keybound in various different ways on different hotbars than yours are.

In the end you didn't actually argue that the skills aren't used (except some strange idea that most of the role actions are basically useless, I can assure you they are not). You just argued that the skills I mentioned could be configured some way on a controller that has absolutely nothing to do with my buttons in my UI. As I said before, since maybe you missed it, some skills are used more frequently than others, but that does NOT mean that those skills that aren't as frequently used can just be dropped or not configured. We are all still expected to have them available and quickly accessible.

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Pots/Medicines: these only matter if you’re doing end-game raiding. Otherwise, they don’t need to be on your bar.

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No, that's not the only place these are useful. They are useful anywhere you might get tagged with a silence, such as in Pagos, for example. It's also nice to have potions available for emergencies when a healer can't pay attention to you right away. Not to mention folks that still use placeholder lesser potions in their rotations to keep their muscle memory in their openers.

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Duty Actions: Duty Actions can be used with R3/L3 for controller users. You don’t need them on your hotbar—there’s very few fights where they’re used anyways, if you consider all the different duties in this game.

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When there is visual spam all over the screen it's a million times more efficient to tap a keybind than to try to find where the mouse cursor is to hover over a duty action button and click it. I can't believe you would even suggest such a thing and that three other people agreed with you. Good for you that you can do some magic with a controller stick. Keyboard users will still have to keybind in some way and that means a button. Therefore ~50 buttons.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

I'm not really sure what you are arguing other than you have a different setup than I do. Nothing you said suggests that I shouldn't have the number of buttons I do as the game currently is right now. You just configure your UI differently because of using a controller.

I don't use a controller, therefore all my skills are keybound in various different ways on different hotbars than yours are.

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Okay, and yet, my original point still stands - you don't have a job that uses ~50 buttons worth of actions in any given combat. At least, you have not actually named one, as I asked prior. And I mean all ~50 of them. You listed many situational buttons that may or may not even be useful in most battle scenarios (like teleports and mounts).

Even if I wasn't on controller, I would still find far more efficient ways to make use of my hotbar space. That wouldn't include cluttering them with things that don't need to be there. If I don't regularly use a button, I don't have it on my hotbars. That's my logic. If it's something niche or situational, I have it on an auxiliary bar/keybind, or I just access the main menu for it. But I also dislike clutter in general - I like to keep my HUD as clean as possible.

I'm only mentioning my controller usage because it seems to boggle your mind that controller users can be efficient with their hotbar space while also considering what items they actually need on them - this is just what I'm inferring from your tone in your previous post. That being said, controllers are not wanting for space, what with 8 crossbars of 16 buttons each. In addition to being able to keybind horizontal and vertical hotbars should one opt to also use a keyboard (even if it's for things that aren't needed that frequently).

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

In the end you didn't actually argue that the skills aren't used (except some strange idea that most of the role actions are basically useless, I can assure you they are not). You just argued that the skills I mentioned could be configured some way on a controller that has absolutely nothing to do with my buttons in my UI. As I said before, since maybe you missed it, some skills are used more frequently than others, but that does NOT mean that those skills that aren't as frequently used can just be dropped or not configured. We are all still expected to have them available and quickly accessible.

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First and foremost, I can assure you that outside of extremely niche situations, 4/10 of the physical ranged DPS role actions are useless - I've never used Arm, Knee, or Foot Graze because there's simply no need to in the majority of content (and I've never heard of a melee DPS actually using Crutch). You do not need binds or heavies in any sort of content that actually matters, and stuns are already brought by melee and tanks (aside from the fact that most bosses are immune to them anyways); silence is arguably the only one that is relatively useful out of the four Graze skills - I used it a grand total of two times where it actually made a difference - O3S and O7S on adds. Peloton is only really useful for running faster in zones, dungeons, and 24-mans. We could comfortably use only 5 of our role actions - Refresh, Tactician, Palisade, Invigorate, and Second Wind - and rarely be wanting for more outside of the two Savage fights I mentioned previously (in which case I usually swapped out Invigorate).

Eureka aside, the CC abilities serve very little purpose in most content. Eureka doesn't make up the majority of the content in this game - it's a small niche where they actually allowed CC to be useful, but that's not the case in most content. This is the developer's own doing; they opted to make most CC abilities worth very little.

If you're running out of space, reconfigure your UI/keybinds better. That's all I can really say. I know many KB/M users that don't share you complaint of "~50 buttons on my hotbars that are needed to be accessible at all times".

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

No, that's not the only place these are useful. They are useful anywhere you might get tagged with a silence, such as in Pagos, for example. It's also nice to have potions available for emergencies when a healer can't pay attention to you right away. Not to mention folks that still use placeholder lesser potions in their rotations to keep their muscle memory in their openers.

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Pagos is one piece of content out of many; the only other one you can argue for is PotD/HoH with regards to things like Echo Drops, etc.. Other than that, in the vast majority, they make very little difference. As for the HP potions, what is +6,000 HP for a pool of 53,000 for a DPS? Maybe one auto-attack, if even that. The only ones I've heard of being used are sometimes Super-ethers were used by my healers during Savage/Ultimate progression - but they're dropped for clears because they share a timer with infusions, which they preferred to use instead for the damage boost.

I don't know of many people that use lesser potions to maintain muscle memory for their openers. Speaking for myself, I don't. And I don't really need to.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

When there is visual spam all over the screen it's a million times more efficient to tap a keybind than to try to find where the mouse cursor is to hover over a duty action button and click it. I can't believe you would even suggest such a thing and that three other people agreed with you. Good for you that you can do some magic with a controller stick. Keyboard users will still have to keybind in some way and that means a button. Therefore ~50 buttons.

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I guess they agreed with me because they also agree that you're lumping in a bunch of pointless/situational things into this "button bloat" in order to fuel your rhetoric? Or they realize that Duty Actions are, again, present in very few pieces of content? That's the only assumption I can really make there.

As I suggested before, if you're struggling with your keybinds, consider reconfiguring them. Perhaps invest in an MMO mouse because I think they allow for more keybinds - I hear a lot of good things about them. It sounds like to me that you have a bunch of needless things configured that really don't need to be.



As an aside, I have a message from a friend of mine that they would like for me to pass along to you in response to your response before this one:

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Before Stormblood, I played MCH comfortably, on a controller, across 2 hotbars. Everything I absolutely needed to play the job were my hotbar 1 and 2. 3 was a mostly redundant hotbar I put the unique PvP skills we had back then, with some of my frequent-use PvE skills; if I got rid of redundancies and skills I just never touched in PvP, and if I used the PvP hotbar settings (which still exist, but aren't needed or usable anymore), I easily didn't need #3. 4 is emotes I use a lot, more a QoL shortcut and hardly a necessity. 5 is job change shortcuts, again QoL, not necessity. 6 is blank and always has been. 7 forms the 2 separate hotbar shortcuts accessible by L2 + R2/R2 +L2 combinations and those are just mount shortcuts, Teleport/Return, and 2 Limit Breaks where I only need 1, but let's consider 7 a necessity for the sake of argument. 8 is still the default system menu that I never use, so I could make space there if needed as well.

All that aside, only the first 2 hotbars are what I use and need to play any and every job (with only PLD currently low on space, and I even found a workaround for that), and after the Stormblood skill pruning, I actually have room to spare on some of them, because, as mentioned before, I don't need every role action, and if I ever do, hey guess what? Open spots on my main 2 hotbars, 4 hotbars full of things I don't absolutely need or can access just as easily via menus, and one completely blank one. And I don't have any more or less skills /actions than any other player. I'm aware PC has fewer slots per hotbar, but I'm aware they have 12 hotbars compared to m+y 8 cross hotbars, not all of which am I fully using. So where is this perceived lack of space coming from?

P.S. I don't do barebones anything just because I use a controller. Please don't make blanket statements implying controller players are somehow inefficient or incapable because of using one.

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Perhaps a modified case-by-case version of the PVP system can be implemented. Using DRG for example:

-Jump and Spineshatter Dive TRANSFORMS into Mirage Dive after being used. +1 button
-Doom Spike TRANSFORMS into Sonic Thrust after being used. +1 button
-Fang and Claw TRANSORMS into Wheeling Thrust when using it after Full Thrust.+1 button
-Wheeling Thrust TRANSFORMS into Fang and Claw when using it after Chaos Thrust.

-Impulse Drive removed, True Thrust combos into both Disembowel and Vorpal Thrust. +1 button
-Heavy Thrust removed, Vorpal Thrust increase DRG's damage by 10% for 30 seconds. +1 button

Bam, 6 skills consolidated, GCDs remain the same (except for the 2 BoTD finishers and braindead AoE "combo"), DRG's 2 independent combo paths only split after the first GCD (no reason to have 2 separate openining GCDs that only differ in potency) and for the 2 finishers, which always follow eachother. DRG's buff is gained later in the combo, but who cares because every other melee with a DMG buff gains their buff mid-combo too (MNK, SAM, WAR)

"I throw everything into my hotbars that i don't even need, we have a button bloat SE fix this"

I think SE should put mounts, teleport and all that other useless stuff into a combo action button. :rolleyes:

Yeah ppl always blow this out of proportion.

What OP is asking for is for 1-2-3 combos to be consolidated to a single button that has an icon that CHANGES with each input. Players would still be required to press this one button 3 times. A macro is a worse solution because it absolutely locks you into a 1-2-3. The changing icon would still allow for oGCD weaves in between GCD inputs.

I posted this before in another thread:

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Originally Posted by Rowde

WAR would have 3 combo buttons: Storm's Eye, Storm's Path and Butcher Block. Consolidating 6 buttons down to 3.
PLD would have 3 combo buttons as well: Royal Authority, Goring Blade and Rage of Halone. Again, consolidating 6 buttons down to 3.
DRK would only have 2 combo buttons: Soul Eater and Power Slash. Consolidating 5 buttons down to 2.

So on PLD for example, there would be 3 buttons on the hotbar that would change as such.
Fast Blade >> Savage Blade >> Rage of Halone
Fast Blade >> Riot Blade >> Goring Blade
Fast Blade >> Riot Blade >> Royal Authority

And technically this would still allow for repetition of one-two combos, for whatever reason (assume maybe PLD or DRK want to spam Riot/Syphon for MP), as the Rage of Halone Combo would reset to Fast Blade as soon as Riot Blade is pressed because that combo string can no longer be continued.


For Melee DPS, DRG could get the most dramatic benefit (if Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust are tacked on to the combos... which they should be).
They'd have 3 combo buttons: Full Thrust and Chaos Thrust (which actually branch into F&G and Wheeling), and Sonic Thrust. Consolidating 10 buttons down to 3.

The two single-target combos would go:
True Thrust >> Vorpal Thrust >> Full Thrust >> Fang and Claw >> Wheeling Thrust
Impulse Drive >> Disembowel >> Chaos Thrust >> Wheeling Thrust >> Fang and Claw

NIN would get 3 combo buttons: Aoelian Edge, Shadow Fang and Armor Crush. Probably the least impact though since their combos don't branch until the last hit... it would only consolidate 5 buttons down to 3.

SAM would get 3 combo buttons: Gekko, Kasha and Yukikaze. Consolidating 6 buttons down to 3.
MNK could get 3 combos buttons as well: Snap Punch, Demolish and Rockbreaker. Consolidating 9 buttons down to 3.

The only difference with MNK is that the combos would progress based on the form, so they would go like this:

Dragon Kick >> Twin Snakes > Snap Punch (flank boosted attacks)
Bootshine >> True Strike >> Demolish (rear boosted attacks)
Arm of the Destroyer >> One Ilm Punch >> Rockbreaker ("special" attacks)

Regardless of whether Dragon, Boot or Arm is pressed, all 3 buttons would progress to their next step. If a form were to drop then all combo buttons would reset to the first step.


What makes MNK and SAM outliers though are Perfect Balance and Meikyo Shisui... and tbh... I'd rather see those 2 abilities get a rework so this system could work for all 7 jobs (8 assuming Gunbreaker will follow suit with at least an enmity combos and a damage combo).

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Once again, this change would primarily only effect Melee based characters with 1-2-3 combos. Physical ranged DPS, Casters and Healers don't generally have combos.

However, separately I think there is room to consolidate some misc buttons based on Procs and "Stances"

For example:
- on RDM have Impact replace Jolt on Procs similar to how Ruin IV replaces Ruin II for SMN.
- on DRK have Blood Weapon change to Blood Price when Grit is active. (And yes, I realize that right now they're two separate CDs, but eh... not losing much by having them share a button and timer based on Stance. I can think of ZERO times where I've been so desperate for MP and saved the day by switching back to tank stance to activate Blood Price to clutch out a win.)
- on SMN and SCH have pet skills change based on what pet is summoned. Just have buttons for Pet Auto, Pet Skill 1, Pet Skill 2, Pet Skill 3 that change based on what pet is currently active. This would make playing Obey so much easier.

Idle Mode, please Look Forward To It!

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I would prefer that they focus on trimming abilities that almost no one uses. Combat doesn't need streamlined to the degree that PvP is. It just needs to be consolidated a bit.

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You know what, I agree that the PVP system, in its entirety, is far too streamlined for normal PvE play...
The combos are shortened, there's little in the way of utility...



But, there are still elements of it that could be useful in the pve areas....
The progressing combo buttons could be adapted.

The context sensetive buttons in particular would be nice.
Stuff like enochian becoming fire/blizzard 4 depending on buffs.
Dreadwyrm trance becoming deathflare.

These adaptations can save on space without changing functionality.

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Originally Posted by Haxaan

Idle Mode, please Look Forward To It!

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We already have that, just queue for Alliance Raid Roulette!

I'm pretty certain you didn't actually read a word I wrote and instead wanted to apply your own personal experience on jobs that you know don't have the kits that other might. You keep talking about physical ranged DPS and I guess there is a physical ranged dps that doesn't have a big kit or role actions that they are expected to use. Okay. Maybe that's true. You also keep conceding that I might be right in certain situations after they have been pointed out, so you still haven't convinced me that I don't need the abilities that I have placed on my hotbars.

And finally, you made a condescending remark about how I have my UI set up after I explained in detail exactly how I have it set up. I am not 'struggling' with using my abilities, I'm struggling with immersion in this game because half the screen is my keybinds. The UI in general is busy and a hot mess and there is little we can do about it.


Since you love to talk about dropping role actions so much here are mine:

Addle
Break
Drain
Diversion
Lucid Dreaming
Swiftcast
Mana shift
Apocostatis
Surecast
Erase

I play blm.

You tell me which of those I should just drop because they will never, ever, ever be useful.

I have the number of keybinds I do because I use all of the abilities and actions available to me. I'm glad that your kit is smaller and that you think the experience is perfect the way it is. I think that SE needs to take another look going into Shadowbringers for a number of jobs.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Drain, erase, break. No need to thank me.

BLM that never uses Diversion, Lucid and to a lesser extent Mana Shift or Surecast because they are not "useful", well that explains quite a lot...

Although the wonder is if you find all of the role actions to never ever be useful, there is no point equipping them anyway so meaning you'll suddenly have 10 free spaces available, your hotbar problem just got a little lighter. (Of course some role actions you should be taking though, no doubt).

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Drain, erase, break. No need to thank me.

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I have clutch saved a Tank with Erase and kept myself alive in multiple content with Drain.

Break though... outside of PotD/HoH (and perhaps not even there) I don't see it being useful. Maybe it could be useful in 70+ solo content for BLM if it was a planned Burst Phase with Triplecast to move farther away and then plant Ley Lines with the intent to kill before the target catches up. Even then I'm not sure the Heavy effect would make that much a difference though.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

I'm pretty certain you didn't actually read a word I wrote and instead wanted to apply your own personal experience on jobs that you know don't have the kits that other might. You keep talking about physical ranged DPS and I guess there is a physical ranged dps that doesn't have a big kit or role actions that they are expected to use. Okay. Maybe that's true. You also keep conceding that I might be right in certain situations after they have been pointed out, so you still haven't convinced me that I don't need the abilities that I have placed on my hotbars.

And finally, you made a condescending remark about how I have my UI set up after I explained in detail exactly how I have it set up. I am not 'struggling' with using my abilities, I'm struggling with immersion in this game because half the screen is my keybinds. The UI in general is busy and a hot mess and there is little we can do about it.


Since you love to talk about dropping role actions so much here are mine:

Addle
Break
Drain
Diversion
Lucid Dreaming
Swiftcast
Mana shift
Apocostatis
Surecast
Erase

I play blm.

You tell me which of those I should just drop because they will never, ever, ever be useful.

I have the number of keybinds I do because I use all of the abilities and actions available to me. I'm glad that your kit is smaller and that you think the experience is perfect the way it is. I think that SE needs to take another look going into Shadowbringers for a number of jobs.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

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What else do you have on your hotbars because if i'm really generous and let you keep the three mentioned useless role actions you are at around 34 which still far away from 50 buttons. lol

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Originally Posted by Rowde

I have clutch saved a Tank with Erase and kept myself alive in multiple content with Drain.

Break though... outside of PotD/HoH (and perhaps not even there) I don't see it being useful. Maybe it could be useful in 70+ solo content for BLM if it was a planned Burst Phase with Triplecast to move farther away and then plant Ley Lines with the intent to kill before the target catches up. Even then I'm not sure the Heavy effect would make that much a difference though.

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Then I'm sorry, if you needed to use Erase and Drain, you and the group weren't doing too hot. Never had any use for any of those skills personally and I run everything except Ultimate. Tanks and DPS don't escape that fate either. Stuns, slows, heavies and to a certain extent silences are all useless. BLM have even Sleep and Scathe they can take off cuz honestly, when do you ever use those?

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Then I'm sorry, if you needed to use Erase and Drain, you and the group weren't doing too hot. Never had any use for any of those skills personally and I run everything except Ultimate. Tanks and DPS don't escape that fate either. Stuns, slows, heavies and to a certain extent silences are all useless. BLM have even Sleep and Scathe they can take off cuz honestly, when do you ever use those?

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PotD, HoH, Eureka, Baldesion Arsenal all have a plethora of uses for Sleep, Silence, and Stun. Quite a few mini-bosses and bosses in ARR content have stun/silence mechanics, not to mention most dungeon trash can be burned even faster with appropriate stun/silence weaves, and that's still applicable in SB content.


"My group" when these situations arise are typically randoms I get partnered in when doing roulettes. And there's nothing to apologize about because a clutch victory was still better than a wipe and reset. I'd rather you apologize for the DPS I get partnered with on WAR in ARR dungeons via Leveling roulette who don't have Goad on there hotbar for my Berserk Overpower spam.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

I'm pretty certain you didn't actually read a word I wrote and instead wanted to apply your own personal experience on jobs that you know don't have the kits that other might.

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No, I read what you wrote. I just disagree with it. And I apologize: I thought we were talking about personal experiences considering the post I initially replied to was a complaint about how YOU had ~50 buttons bloating your bars.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Out of curiosity I counted the keybinds I have in my UI. I have ~50. Three hotbars in a 12 'numberpad' layout with shift and ctrl modifiers, three that use the bottom three slots above those numberpads that are bound to the F keys with modifiers, one additional hotbar in a stacked 3 configuration that is bound to the mouse scroll wheel with shift and ctrl modifiers, and another one I recently added to deal with the 'Duty Action' buttons SE thinks we need because apparently, we don't have enough buttons to press already. That's another 3. 50+ buttons and every single one of them has a skill in it that at some point, I am expected to use.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

You keep talking about physical ranged DPS and I guess there is a physical ranged dps that doesn't have a big kit or role actions that they are expected to use. Okay. Maybe that's true. You also keep conceding that I might be right in certain situations after they have been pointed out, so you still haven't convinced me that I don't need the abilities that I have placed on my hotbars.

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Things that aren't used often don't need to be on your hotbars. At that point, they are clutter.

Echo Drops? Unless you're doing Eureka or PotD/HoH, why are you letting them sit on your hotbars? Mounts? How many do you have bound? "Lesser potions"? Again, unless you're a raider, why are these things on your hotbars anyways? They aren't needed for any other content outside of Savage/Ultimate (and you don't even need them there; they're for padding your own numbers at this point). Waymarks/other markers? I have the 6 waymarks on my auxiliary bar, but I don't put number markers on them - if I need to use them, I can use the sub-menu and select them. If a certain fight called for them (e.g., Sophia Ex back in Raid Finder), I just made macros to auto-assign marks to players.

I've leveled every job to 70 and played them all in at least some form or fashion. Maybe not in every piece of content, but I've at least done things like dungeons with them. The only ones I am pressed to fit everything onto 2 crossbars is PLD - even SMN/SCH I've managed to fit onto 2 bars, the former having more pet actions assigned than the latter, since Selene is usually left on Sic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

And finally, you made a condescending remark about how I have my UI set up after I explained in detail exactly how I have it set up. I am not 'struggling' with using my abilities, I'm struggling with immersion in this game because half the screen is my keybinds. The UI in general is busy and a hot mess and there is little we can do about it.

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I'm going to stop you at "condescending". Quite frankly, you came off as far more condescending in your tone throughout your two posts to me than I ever have to you with your disbelief that 1. People could actually disagree with you, and 2. Your insinuation that controller users are unable to actually utilize their hotbar space efficiently.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

When there is visual spam all over the screen it's a million times more efficient to tap a keybind than to try to find where the mouse cursor is to hover over a duty action button and click it. I can't believe you would even suggest such a thing and that three other people agreed with you. Good for you that you can do some magic with a controller stick. Keyboard users will still have to keybind in some way and that means a button. Therefore ~50 buttons.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

You might be limiting your thinking to the most absolute bare-bones minimal rotation you could be doing in an encounter (and that's what a lot of folks end up doing if they are using a controller).

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If your UI is that cluttered, consider uncluttering it. That's not condescension - that's advice. There are plenty of people that have tons of things keybound, they but don't have them on their UI because they don't deem them necessary.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Since you love to talk about dropping role actions so much here are mine:

Addle
Break
Drain
Diversion
Lucid Dreaming
Swiftcast
Mana shift
Apocostatis
Surecast
Erase

I play blm.

You tell me which of those I should just drop because they will never, ever, ever be useful.

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You can take off Drain and Break - neither are very useful for any of the casters.
There's two free spaces right there.

Break - Heavy is worthless in most content.
Drain - With only 80 potency, the HP absorb is not worth the cast.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

I have the number of keybinds I do because I use all of the abilities and actions available to me. I'm glad that your kit is smaller and that you think the experience is perfect the way it is. I think that SE needs to take another look going into Shadowbringers for a number of jobs.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

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Just because you have certain role actions or abilities doesn't mean that they are inherently useful. I've never heard a BLM actually say that Break, Drain, or even Freeze are considered useful to their kit.

Comparing my BLM hotbars to my BRD hotbars, they share about the same amount of buttons, even with redundant target macros for things like Apoc and Palisade/Nature's Minne. But BRD is not the only job I play - I also play AST, and AST has far more buttons than BLM or BRD does. Yet, I've fit all of them comfortably onto my UI with no clutter and no excessive keybind usage.

We will have to agree to disagree - because I don't agree that because we can keybind things like mounts, potions, teleports, and waymarks/markers that we need skill pruning to the extent the PvP system offers. There are skills that could stand to go away or be consolidated (Rowde actually made a good suggestion with DRK's Blood Price/Blood Weapon), but I don't think we need full skill consolidation.