@Naoki Yoshida-> Make Samurai a Tank class!

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Originally Posted by Walfan

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I believe you misunderstand my post or are you trying to use my post as a example of the main issue getting more players to play Tank Job in Group content?

Either way, the point is SAM Tank will only be considered as a Tank Job that successfully solved a bit of the Tank Population issue if it actually has a noticable effect on the Tank Population in Group content.

As you said we can have a 100 players playing SAM Tank but if only 10 actually use it for Group content then it has not changed the current issue of Tank Jobs in Group content being the lack of Tank Players in group content.

Either way SAM Tank or SAM Dps we are looking at a major outcry to Group content populations no matter how it goes. People who want SAM tank will support it for their own reasons, either because they see it as the only way to be a tank, want to be a "cool" samurai as a Tank, think the "cool" factor of being a Samurai is enough to make people play a Tank in group content, or "anime" reasons, and people want it as a DPS will support it as a DPS for their own reasons as well, either for sword dps, focus on causing a slaughter fest with a sword as a Samurai, or "anime" reasons.

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Originally Posted by Walfan

Kimahri is a blue mage and is a close-range warrior using a spear. Their core identity is using monster abilities, not cast times.

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Kimahri may be a poor example due to the fact most characters in Final Fantasy X are a combination of two other FF jobs, Kimahri being Dragoon and Blue Mage (Auron is Samurai+Knight etc.).

However, you are still correct in that the only unifying identity Blue Mage has throughout it's iterations is that it uses monster abilities. In fact, Blue Mage has one of the widest variety in terms of design/look across multiple Final Fantasy titles. This means it's iteration in FFXIV if it's ever added can easily be tweaked to fit whichever role or archetype they deem necessary as long as it stills uses monster abilities in some form.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

I believe you misunderstand my post or are you trying to use my post as a example of the main issue getting more players to play Tank Job in Group content?

Either way, the point is SAM Tank will only be considered as a Tank Job that successfully solved a bit of the Tank Population issue if it actually has a noticable effect on the Tank Population in Group content.

As you said we can have a 100 players playing SAM Tank but if only 10 actually use it for Group content then it has not changed the current issue of Tank Jobs in Group content being the lack of Tank Players in group content.

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It doesn't matter if 10 or 1000 dps players like to parade around in the job outside of group content as long as more people pick up tanking in actual group content because of SAM, something which has worked with DRK like other posts proved.

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Either way SAM Tank or SAM Dps we are looking at a major outcry to Group content populations no matter how it goes. People who want SAM tank will support it for their own reasons, either because they see it as the only way to be a tank, want to be a "cool" samurai as a Tank, think the "cool" factor of being a Samurai is enough to make people play a Tank in group content, or "anime" reasons, and people want it as a DPS will support it as a DPS for their own reasons as well, either for sword dps, focus on causing a slaughter fest with a sword as a Samurai, or "anime" reasons.

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That's a given. My point was that the majority shouldn't dictate what the dev team should do.

I still maintain making SAM a tank is the better and more logical choice, but in the end it depends on square's priorities.
Do they care more about increasing/stabilizing the tank population ? Or do they prefer trying to attract new players, far more easily lured by a cool new dps job than a tank one ?

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Originally Posted by Walfan

It doesn't matter if 10 or 1000 dps players like to parade around in the job outside of group content as long as more people pick up tanking in actual group content because of SAM, something which has worked with DRK like other posts proved.

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We don't actually have numbers to suggest that DRK did that to any significant degree at all.

http://i.imgur.com/wFW3jhZ.jpg

Tank, DPS, I'm fine with either, since I play all kind of roles and jobs, provided we're actually getting SAM at all. I can list both pros and cons for addition to either role.

Only thing that would kill it for me would be the queue time for DPS if SAM is really introduced as DPS job. If DRK's addition managed to kill tank queue to THAT degree during HW's launch I dreaded thinking how much worse would it be for DPS queue.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Again, why is a perfectly plausible RDM DPS not good enough for the "needed" sword DPS?
https://cdn.bg-wiki.com/images/thumb...x-Red_Mage.jpg

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something something cure refresh haste lolenfeebles?

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Again, why is a perfectly plausible RDM DPS not good enough for the "needed" sword DPS?
https://cdn.bg-wiki.com/images/thumb...x-Red_Mage.jpg

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Because uh..."reasons", I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Again, why is a perfectly plausible RDM DPS not good enough for the "needed" sword DPS?

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Job theme could be big part of reason.

@Shippuu, which cross class skills should the Samurai tank have? Like ofc the paladin one is a must, but would it be interesting to get cross skills from lets say Dark Knight? Which one was used in ff11?

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Originally Posted by Madepossible

@Shippuu, which cross class skills should the Samurai tank have? Like ofc the paladin one is a must, but would it be interesting to get cross skills from lets say Dark Knight? Which one was used in ff11?

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We don't really know. The cross class system is undergoing a change in 4.0. We'll have more details on that on Saturday though I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Again, why is a perfectly plausible RDM DPS not good enough for the "needed" sword DPS?
https://cdn.bg-wiki.com/images/thumb...x-Red_Mage.jpg

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Why stop at 1 DPS? When they can have 2! Its only fair providing tanks have 2 sword based tanks right? :') inb4 herpderp RDM tank. Completely ignoring that there are much better candidates for tank mages, Blue Mages, Mystic Knight, Rune Fencer etc.

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Originally Posted by Madepossible

@Shippuu, which cross class skills should the Samurai tank have? Like ofc the paladin one is a must, but would it be interesting to get cross skills from lets say Dark Knight? Which one was used in ff11?

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I don't think you have to worry about cross classing in 4.0 anymore

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Originally Posted by Katana190

Why stop at 1 DPS? When they can have 2! Its only fair providing tanks have 2 sword based tanks right? :') inb4 herpderp RDM tank. Completely ignoring that there are much better candidates for tank mages, Blue Mages, Mystic Knight, Rune Fencer etc.

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I want a Tank with a two-handed hammer or mace T_T

@Katana190 & Legion88, it may be a far fetched idea, but how are your thoughts on cross class trait abilities?

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Originally Posted by Legion88

I want a Tank with a two-handed hammer or mace T_T

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I want this too! But so far RDM and SAM are the most requested and most likely jobs coming out in 4.0 with dancer being a 3rd competitor. Maybe 5.0?

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Originally Posted by Madepossible

@Katana190 & Legion88, it may be a far fetched idea, but how are your thoughts on cross class trait abilities?

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I think traits will also be seeing a change as so many cross classes are conflicted with traits too. It's best to just wait and see for more info at the upcoming fanfests.

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Originally Posted by Madepossible

@Katana190 & Legion88, it may be a far fetched idea, but how are your thoughts on cross class trait abilities?

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In my personal opinion traits shouldn't be crossclassable, they are a big part of the uniqueness of a job and how his abilities and skills are working. Especially with an eye on the puplished plans to pool some "mandatory" or "equivalent" skills by role (see reworking of the cross class system), the importance of individual traits who modify this pooled skills and bring them in line with the individual job mechanics and feeling rises.

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Originally Posted by Katana190

I want this too! But so far RDM and SAM are the most requested and most likely jobs coming out in 4.0 with dancer being a 3rd competitor. Maybe 5.0?

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I said it in several other threads: I doubt that they will give us so much jobs, who are so high in the wishlist. From my own point of view we will get one, maybe two from the wishlist, but not more. My bet for a new job goes on RDM, cause the obvious hints since the anniversary event 2015. All other is mostly just wishing from some parts of the community.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

I said it in several other threads: I doubt that they will give us so much jobs, who are so high in the wishlist. From my own point of view we will get one, maybe two from the wishlist, but not more. My bet for a new job goes on RDM, cause the obvious hints since the anniversary event 2015. All other is mostly just wishing from some parts of the community.

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I see your point but its not just about these jobs being on the wishlist, but they also fit the theme extremely well. I also believe we will get 3 jobs again (although I believe this is the last time they'll do it or we'll end up with too many jobs) just purely to what he said in an interview about the moonfire event. But I also know not to be disappointed with only 2 regardless.

I just sympathy for healers because they'll be the ones most likely left in the dark which is a shame. And Healing is my off role with Astro because I'm a filthy bandwagoner and loved the changes to it.

Mystic knight as tank.
Sam as dps.
Red as healer.

Why do people want to foist SAM on us as a Tank when there is not enough players playing Tanks already. Make the current Tank jobs more appealing before saturating the populace with unnecessary job classes.

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Originally Posted by Rizon

Why do people want to foist SAM on us as a Tank when there is not enough players playing Tanks already. Make the current Tank jobs more appealing before saturating the populace with unnecessary job classes.

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http://i.imgur.com/c7NJRa2.gif

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Originally Posted by Galaktica

http://i.imgur.com/c7NJRa2.gif

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I swear it would be a god send if SE could just introduce new Jobs like SAM and give it the ability to play as either a DPS or Tank Job role in Group Content.

Of course they have to make the system work that so when a player joins as a Tank Role they are locked as a Tank Job with the ability adjusted to Tank Role and if they join as a DPS they are locked as a DPS and their skills are adjusted as a DPS Role.

They already can do this with Stances by having a Tank Stance and DPS Stance at level 1 and which stance the Job is in adjust the Job skills to that Job Role but no they have to stick with 1 Role per Job.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

I swear it would be a god send if SE could just introduce new Jobs like SAM and give it the ability to play as either a DPS or Tank Job role in Group Content.

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If only... I wouldn't even ask for 3 different specs like in WoW but maybe just 2 per job. But there's no point in dreaming this :(

Seriously though, why do people think SE alone can fix the tank stigma? Its been something that has gone around since the start of the holy trinity, the only way to fix it, is to remove tanks and make them not needed, but that's not fair to the few that actually enjoy tanking. Regardless I think WAR does crap on the other 2 tanks in gameplay (opinion) and power (fact) but they did mention they would bring the other 2 tanks up in 4.0, what that means is unclear. Make the gameplay more enjoyable? Give them more power? Or both. I'm sure we'll have more info on this soon, probably by the eu fanfest.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Of course they have to make the system work that so when a player joins as a Tank Role they are locked as a Tank Job with the ability adjusted to Tank Role and if they join as a DPS they are locked as a DPS and their skills are adjusted as a DPS Role.

They already can do this with Stances by having a Tank Stance and DPS Stance at level 1 and which stance the Job is in adjust the Job skills to that Job Role but no they have to stick with 1 Role per Job.

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Kinda how I feel, same with AST and Diurnal and Noct giving 2 different effects, I'd have to assume they could also do the same for a job.

There's a lot of people who have tanks at max level, they just don't necessarily play their tanks in duty finder. A new tank job is fresh incentive to take that new job into duty finder again.

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Originally Posted by Rizon

Why do people want to foist SAM on us as a Tank when there is not enough players playing Tanks already. Make the current Tank jobs more appealing before saturating the populace with unnecessary job classes.

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Technically the least played jobs in the game are Machinist (4%) and Summoner (6%). Guess that means no new dps jobs until they make them more appealing right? I mean that's your logic.

Not to mention the backwards logic of "there aren't enough tanks, so let's not add something that could help boost those numbers and instead do something that will help lower those numbers. Meanwhile, let's take the largest demographic that has the most variety in jobs available to them and give them even more!"

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

Not to mention the backwards logic of "there aren't enough tanks, so let's not add something that could help boost those numbers and instead do something that will help lower those numbers. Meanwhile, let's take the largest demographic that has the most variety in jobs available to them and give them even more!"

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There aren't conclusive numbers to suggest that introducing Dark Knight as a tank made any significant increase in the number of total tank players.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/67805...eborn/74737724


So probably SAM as tank and RDM as melee dps :p

Hope its true, especially for the fox mount \o/ Kurama here i am !

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

Hope its true, especially for the fox mount \o/ Kurama here i am !

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Imagine riding into battle on this thing.

http://i.imgur.com/UJzeREh.jpg

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Originally Posted by GMERC

There aren't conclusive numbers to suggest that introducing Dark Knight as a tank made any significant increase in the number of total tank players.

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2% increase is huge. Not only did the tank population not decrease, it increased.
Did you really expect something like a 10% increase because of DRK ? And if it's "only" 2% percent, even with DRK's popularity, what do you think would have happened without it ?

The goal isn't to totally replace the dps population and a 40% tank population isn't going to happen, nor should it.
If SAM adds two more %, then we would be seeing a steady and healthy increase, far from a dud.

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Originally Posted by GMERC

There aren't conclusive numbers to suggest that introducing Dark Knight as a tank made any significant increase in the number of total tank players.

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Doesn't matter, still not an excuse to not introduce new tank jobs. Adding new tank jobs offer multiple benefits even if it doesn't increase the tank population, whereas not adding new ones has nothing but negative effects.

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Originally Posted by FinalWolf

Imagine riding into battle on this thing.

http://i.imgur.com/UJzeREh.jpg

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I don't mind this, but I would prefer a tiger!

http://41.media.tumblr.com/da641f485...8s6o4_1280.png

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

Technically the least played jobs in the game are Machinist (4%) and Summoner (6%). Guess that means no new dps jobs until they make them more appealing right? I mean that's your logic.

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I have been curoius for a while how Machinists been holding up since the adjustments. I know so far the MCH population consist of mostly players that actually like the gameplay, are more adjusted to it, or "REASONS" but it has been a while since the last Job population information has been released.

DRK is hard to play, Maybe that can explain what DRK isn't play so much. You must manage mana and posture (which is very expensive to put back when needed). If SAM is easier, maybe more ppl can try and like.

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Originally Posted by Walfan

2% increase is huge. Not only did the tank population not decrease, it increased.
Did you really expect something like a 10% increase because of DRK ? And if it's "only" 2% percent, even with DRK's popularity, what do you think would have happened without it ?

The goal isn't to totally replace the dps population and a 40% tank population isn't going to happen, nor should it.
If SAM adds two more %, then we would be seeing a steady and healthy increase, far from a dud.

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While indeed the 2% increase is huge and a massive success, I do not see any further breakdowns of the 2% statistic. This leaves me a little skeptical about things because we also don't entirely know how the census data is gathered, is it by an active time algorithm or by some other means? Is that 2% only counting NEW tanks or is it counting tanks who took a year off during the last census to play DPS or healer and then returned to playing tanks this year? That is the kind of data we're missing to have a concrete "DRK increased tank population." argument.

While indeed I am sure DRK did to a point, the data does not support this as a solid fact. It sure as heck lays credence to it but without a detailed breakdown of how much of that 2% is entirely new tanks, how much of the 2% went to DRK and data like that, I am sorry, I don't see this as definitive proof that DRK increased tank pop, I'm not saying it didn't, because the data shows it did to a degree and I'll concede that point, But I am saying that I don't think the entirety of that 2% is thanks to DRK. The data just doesn't support that argument.

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Originally Posted by Rahdah

DRK is hard to play, Maybe that can explain what DRK isn't play so much. You must manage mana and posture (which is very expensive to put back when needed). If SAM is easier, maybe more ppl can try and like.

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Well as they say the more easier it is the more popular it is.

Who needs effort when you can just cheese everything easily without putting much thought into it. :p

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Who needs effort when you can just cheese everything easily without putting much thought into it. :p

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The mantra of PLD? XD

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

I swear it would be a god send if SE could just introduce new Jobs like SAM and give it the ability to play as either a DPS or Tank Job role in Group Content.

Of course they have to make the system work that so when a player joins as a Tank Role they are locked as a Tank Job with the ability adjusted to Tank Role and if they join as a DPS they are locked as a DPS and their skills are adjusted as a DPS Role.

They already can do this with Stances by having a Tank Stance and DPS Stance at level 1 and which stance the Job is in adjust the Job skills to that Job Role but no they have to stick with 1 Role per Job.

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My idea came about after some time playing ESO. Have an alternate weapon for each job that shifts their role. Just drop stances, divvy up their skills, but I also had the idea to let them switch on the fly in duties. Just a fleshed out version of stance dancing, but something that every Job could do.

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Originally Posted by StarRosie

While indeed I am sure DRK did to a point, the data does not support this as a solid fact. It sure as heck lays credence to it but without a detailed breakdown of how much of that 2% is entirely new tanks, how much of the 2% went to DRK and data like that, I am sorry, I don't see this as definitive proof that DRK increased tank pop, I'm not saying it didn't, because the data shows it did to a degree and I'll concede that point, But I am saying that I don't think the entirety of that 2% is thanks to DRK. The data just doesn't support that argument.

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If I had to make a guess, the information tracked could either be the number of individuals who took DRK to 60, or possibly tracking the number of completed duties as DRK over the other two. Could be both, and then other tidbits of information. It can be taken that DRK's introduction was a positive impact, just not something people should attach themselves to so closely.

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Originally Posted by StarRosie

While indeed the 2% increase is huge and a massive success, I do not see any further breakdowns of the 2% statistic. This leaves me a little skeptical about things because we also don't entirely know how the census data is gathered, is it by an active time algorithm or by some other means? Is that 2% only counting NEW tanks or is it counting tanks who took a year off during the last census to play DPS or healer and then returned to playing tanks this year? That is the kind of data we're missing to have a concrete "DRK increased tank population." argument.

While indeed I am sure DRK did to a point, the data does not support this as a solid fact. It sure as heck lays credence to it but without a detailed breakdown of how much of that 2% is entirely new tanks, how much of the 2% went to DRK and data like that, I am sorry, I don't see this as definitive proof that DRK increased tank pop, I'm not saying it didn't, because the data shows it did to a degree and I'll concede that point, But I am saying that I don't think the entirety of that 2% is thanks to DRK. The data just doesn't support that argument.

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The statistic is literally just "people with the job at 60," not any metric of how much a job is actually played or used in content. I for one would love to see a statistic for, say, the percentage of DRK players who have it as their only tank at 60, but already had, say, PLD at 50 or higher, because I honestly doubt I'm the only player who "switched" tank mains (just as a similar number probably switched to the greatly improved 3.0 WAR).

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

Doesn't matter, still not an excuse to not introduce new tank jobs. Adding new tank jobs offer multiple benefits even if it doesn't increase the tank population, whereas not adding new ones has nothing but negative effects.

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I don't disagree, but i firmly believe that if we're only getting 2 new jobs in Stormblood (which is still possible pending confirmation to the contrary) that they should be DPS. Yes we could use more tanks in the future for the same reason more DPS can't hurt, but Tanks and Healers are in a pretty good spot right now. And if we are to insist on adding new Tank and Healer in Stormblood, we'd be in the same spot two years later when I'd be even more justified in saying "we probably don't need a new tank or healer again" for 5.0

1:1:2 would be ideal, but I kind of doubt not having to develop a new playable race has actually freed up their resources so much that they could release a whole four jobs this time around.

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Originally Posted by StarRosie

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Oh I completely agree with you, I'd very much like to know how exactly is that data collected and if I only need to level a tank to be considered one.
I'm mostly going with what we know for now.

Nevertheless, if the data does count active tanks, you can't say DRK wasn't a massive success by being the new most played tank job by far.