Strength Tanks

Have a question... Not as to what is better (I gave my opinion on that) rather I have just been thinking "why the different methodology" that leads to the straight up Str>Vit debate.

Every other MMORPG I have ever played had tanks looking at three things, usually in this order...
eHP (effective hitpoints)=aggro managment
Utility
DPS.

For those that may not have heard eHP (maybe mentioned earlier but a lot of pages here) before it is basically adding up you HP pool and static mitigation, here defense, (no avoidance or CDs) to figure out how much damage you are guaranteed to survive. I really haven't seen this addressed number wise and as a numbers driven kinda guy am curious how/when you know/prove you have the adequate eHP?

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

In 2.0 everyone rolled strength/vit gear.

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yes ! it's just now it tend to be more forced in 3.0
but everyone act like it's new

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Originally Posted by Galibier

For those that may not have heard eHP (maybe mentioned earlier but a lot of pages here) before it is basically adding up you HP pool and static mitigation, here defense, (no avoidance or CDs) to figure out how much damage you are guaranteed to survive. I really haven't seen this addressed number wise and as a numbers driven kinda guy am curious how/when you know/prove you have the adequate eHP?

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if you don't die in one hit, you have enough hp. healers are ridiculously strong in this game compared to others. you'll be at full hp from nothing in less than two gcds.

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Originally Posted by Immut

if you don't die in one hit, you have enough hp. healers are ridiculously strong in this game compared to others. you'll be at full hp from nothing in less than two gcds.

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Really you shoud be counting one hit and at least the auto attack that follows. Admittedly, I like to pad it a bit more since I'm not a static raider and mostly run DF, so you never know the quality of the healer you will get.

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Originally Posted by Immut

if you don't die in one hit, you have enough hp. healers are ridiculously strong in this game compared to others. you'll be at full hp from nothing in less than two gcds.

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Yes but I am one of those guys who HATES Zen like that. If things go south I like being able to later see, with some objectivity, was it my gear/stats? Did I flub the rotation? Was it the healer or was it just the rng goddess kicking me in the nuts? I have never been one of those people to say "if you don't get one shot...if the tank doesn't die... If the mob dies.." When it comes to my own performance. I don't hold other people to that same rule (at least out loud lol) but yeah... Hard to kill the min/max mindset. Heck back in EQ2 I once did a month of raids. 1/2 wearing one hat and 1/2 wearing another because one had better stats but the other a more powerful proc to figure out which hat was the most effective.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

In 2.0 everyone rolled strength/vit gear.

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In 2.0 it was especially good because the accessories were easier to cap both, I think you had room for 3 more slots after adding VIT, and had DEX too which affected parry at the time, which was a small boost but overall every aspect of the 2.0 hybrid accessories were the best.

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Originally Posted by Galibier

Yes but I am one of those guys who HATES Zen like that. If things go south I like being able to later see, with some objectivity, was it my gear/stats? Did I flub the rotation? Was it the healer or was it just the rng goddess kicking me in the nuts? I have never been one of those people to say "if you don't get one shot...if the tank doesn't die... If the mob dies.." When it comes to my own performance.

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That's well and fine, but content and class mechanics are structured very differently between EQ2 and FFXIV. For tank survivability, there is a fairly clear minimum HP threshold that needs to be met, and that is right around 16000-16500. Every tankbuster and following autoattack is survivable once you hit that threshold, assuming your healers are on point. After that threshold has been achieved, if you're looking to min/max there is no other way to build other than to optimize damage. There are no item procs, fights are very scripted and methodical. All that remains is to push damage and phases, and comfort be damned.

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Originally Posted by kensatsu

yes ! it's just now it tend to be more forced in 3.0
but everyone act like it's new

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Not really. People just use strength gear.

People who are rich use Vit+Str Jewelry.

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Originally Posted by AI_wass

That's well and fine, but content and class mechanics are structured very differently between EQ2 and FFXIV. For tank survivability, there is a fairly clear minimum HP threshold that needs to be met, and that is right around 16000-16500. /snip.

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Oh I know some of the mechanics are different. I just used procs as an example as to how nutty I can get with numbers lol. That 16000-16.5 is a good starting point for me to work with though, so thanks :).
Tbh I just find the number crunching fun.

On a side note it will be interesting to see how much, if at all, this debate changes with 3.2.

You know. I use to be a WHM, it was my first job and i was terrible at it. But if there was one thing i hated about WARs was that they used VIT accessories. Why? Because a WAR gains back hp through attacking mobs with Bloodbath and you better believe STR accessories are gonna help more than VIT cus unlike those VIT WARs the STR actually take advantage of Bloodbath and despite what you think they made my job easier and healed themselves. But are you excluding WAR? Nope

Sorry to detract from the convo, but could I ask for a bit of clarification. When we are talking about a tank gearing for strength we are only talking about the non-aesthetic pieces right (belt and accessories) or is there some way to get endgame strength favoring main pieces? (weapon, helm, body, etc.)

only accesories

I see the word "optimal" used quite frequently.

Now I'm all for doing your class as well as you can and all, but I'm concerned at the alarming number of aggressive reactions to anyone not hopping on the Str train. Not everyone plays a game to get a 100% completionist achievement. I understand that the math was done long ago and the discussion on Str vs Vit is moot at this point, but is doing a sub-optimal run of anything really that disasterous? I mean honestly. It seems to me like a lot of aggressive players advocating full Str builds are the kind of people who are inherently terrified of doing anything ever unless its done in the most flawless way possible.

Calm down, it's just a game. A damn good game, but still.

You guys do see that this person is on an ALT character with their only class being a level 1 GLA, right? >w>

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Originally Posted by Torunya

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The only time I can somewhat understand going with STR is for like, endgame savage where you're trying to squeeze every last damage point to beat a DPS check (but then again, maybe you should look at the DPS for failing the DPS check instead of the tank...). If your end game consists of nothing but your daily roulettes and maybe an EX primal, VIT works just fine. I just wish SE would come out and say how they're changing up tank stats already. I built my PLD as the traditional full turtle DEF spec tank, all VIT. I don't have any trouble keeping hate, even on big pulls, and PLD AoE enmity is the worst of all the tanks. Well, that's not true, if the DPS blows all their +ATK cooldowns at the start before I have a chance to do much enmity gen, I'll lose it, but then I can grab it right back.

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

The problem is when new players go to the tank forum and see a thread like this at the top of the page, and thus see this ranting post and assume that it's correct. It's on a forum, it's got lots of replies, it has to be correct surely. Unfortunately the only way to correct the post is to reply to the thread... which keeps the circle going. Same thing happens regularly in Balmung /shout in Idyllshire where certain uninformed tank trolls try to convince the playerbase that full vit is the only way to go and you're a failure if you even think about turning on sword oath.

Balancing a desire to not fan trollish flames vs a real desire to HELP the community and make newer tanks better at their job is not an easy task when people like OP post threads like this.

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All of these rant threads about Tanks really makes me scared of what I have signed on for. :(

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Originally Posted by Grant_Wilshire

All of these rant threads about Tanks really makes me scared of what I have signed on for. :(

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Don't worry little one. You'll be fine, just keep learning :) Most will be helpful to you, a few will be obnoxious. Just be sure not to confuse someone giving advice as them being condescending (sometimes they are, but most of the time they are just honestly trying to help you improve).

As for those who are saying what's the big deal about optimization, its simple. People don't like wasting their time. Now, why they say these things in regular dungeons or even hard trials, I don't see the point either. But in extreme trials and raids, I can understand a bit. They usually waited a while for queue times and they most likely don't want to sit through the same content for 3+ hours waiting for a good team because people keep failing due to not being able to meet DPS checks. Now, understanding mechanics will always be more optimal than anyone who doesn't know what their doing. For instance, knowing HOW to do RavanaEx as a minimum ilvl will be much better than someone full eso geared without a clue. Some people obviously take things too far into the extreme though.

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Originally Posted by Lucke

If your end game consists of nothing but your daily roulettes and maybe an EX primal, VIT works just fine.

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A bad tank is going to die regardless of which accessories they're using. And a bad healer is going to fail at keeping you alive regardless of which accessories you're using.

Going full vit works fine if you're good. But if you're good, you don't even need any vit.

wait just one month and wait the stat change, seriously i never say to somebody he have to gear vit or str.
i can't understand why players expect every tanks to be geared in str, also everyone don't use tank as main job. so just do as you wish (i said this many times XD)

@grant
you say rant threads, I say passion threads!

of course i hope that any newer tank who has come to this thread will realize that the OP was in full troll mode. Despite that there has been some reasonable discussions that have occured on the life of the thread. The strength v. vitality debate is probably as devisive as the informal poll I did recently on Chewy v. Crispy Bacon. (friendships are possibly forever lost).

Can you have your tank (or bacon) either way? Of course you can. Is one way inherently wrong - to the point of being avoided like the plague? No.

This is either an awful tank thread posted by an uninformed tank that has no idea how to maths, or it is a brilliant troll.

A healer complaining about Tanks in slaying gear, I can't help but sigh

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Originally Posted by EvilHippie

This is either an awful tank thread posted by an uninformed tank that has no idea how to maths, or it is a brilliant troll.

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I'd go with the later considering the character that is attached to their forum account only has one class at level 1, Gladiator. :B

i miss bacon thread...... but it was glorious while it lasted

honestly though, the argument on how you like your bacon is the same argument that appears here in these forums constantly STR v VIT. What matters is that you do your job and eat your bacon (tank and hold hate). Whether you prefer str or vit (chewy/crispy) at the end of the day, for the majority of content, it doesn't matter.

I joked about the extremism of bacon types and which side you must stand, but IMO, it is a wonderful analogy of this eternal argument. There are those who will argue for VIT only, there are those who will argue STR only (to the hp minimum atleast) and there are those in between. Yes, mods, you have every right to remove those posts, but in doing so I feel that you have failed to see the big picture. WE ALL LOVE TO TANK, and though I may disagree with how you bacon... errr tank, at the end of the day we are united under that banner of being a tank.

Sometimes we need a bit of levity and to take a step back and remember these things. Sometimes we need to laugh at the silliness of the situation and realize how ridiculous some of these stances take. Tongue in Cheek. Satire. An opportunity to see the results of the same type of argument while making fun of that argument.

I would encourage mods to place those posts back for these reasons listed above. (as punishment i shall not mention bacon in any other posts for the remainder of 3.1x)

Rest in Peace, Bacon thread. Like actual bacon, your existence was too short lived.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

Rest in Peace, Bacon thread. Like actual bacon, your existence was too short lived.

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No, don't give up!

BACONBACONBACONBACONBACON!!!!!

If a tank wants to wear strength accessories, fine do it. But you better not be the tank that also doesnt use cooldowns, which just so happens to be the only tanks that I've ever encountered that wore strength accessories. This is why I dont like tanks wearing strength. Because the bad tanks wearing strength are ruining it for everyone.
The good tank says "the healer seems capable, I'm considering wearing strength for this encounter." The bad tank says "DUH I wear strength! More damage! Works great with standing in the aoes as well, so I can have 100% uptime on damage!" Given the choice of a bad tank standing in aoes with vitality accessories or strength, i'll take vitality.

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Originally Posted by keyburz

If a tank wants to wear strength accessories, fine do it. But you better not be the tank that also doesnt use cooldowns, which just so happens to be the only tanks that I've ever encountered that wore strength accessories. This is why I dont like tanks wearing strength. Because the bad tanks wearing strength are ruining it for everyone.
The good tank says "the healer seems capable, I'm considering wearing strength for this encounter." The bad tank says "DUH I wear strength! More damage! Works great with standing in the aoes as well, so I can have 100% uptime on damage!" Given the choice of a bad tank standing in aoes with vitality accessories or strength, i'll take vitality.

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In case anyone is wondering, THIS^^ is why I use the term "Leeroy Tank".

XD Duh ! Damaging if i advoid aoe i loose time on my GCD !

Just want to pipe and thank the contributors of this thread, as a returning player I only got my PLD to 60 yesterday but I've been reading threads like these so I have a better understanding of how to gear up, so far the only STR pieces I'm equiping are rings but I'm only at 15.9k HP with the gear I have. As my gear improves I'm going to be phasing out VIT pieces to maintain 16.5-17k HP, as a veteran FF11 PLD I know just how effctive damage is when keeping hate so to be honest this argument brings back memories of that game when the turtle PLD's simply wouldn't have it that a DPS PLD was far superior for maintaining hate, once Attonment came out though that argument was settled with ease.

I haven't contributed to the thread but like many others (I suspect) I have read it and learned from it, cheers guys.

Honestly. once again, STR or VIT do what ever you like.

But people defending VIT right now... you make me laugh. I'm fine with you going full VIT, honestly. if you can keep hate and do your thing, Thats great! But me and others, would like to get the most out of our classes, meaning We rather do more DMG than having a bit more HP which does nothing basicly. It doesn't reduce DMG. its just flat out more HP. Unless there is a big tank buster involved, VIT is not needed. is that bad? Maybe. thats why they're gonna change it probably.

But don't be bashing STR tanks cause you don't like the way people play. I like to get the most out of my class, be that when i'm tanking or healing or even on a DPS job.
And yes, ofcourse there are bad tanks. That has nothing to do with STR or VIT. have seen plenty of bad tanks in full VIT. that does not mean i'm gonna call every single tank with full vit a bad player.

No, thats the way they wanna play and if it works and they're not holding back their PT. thats perfectly fine. But in most content, the excessive amount of VIT is just not even remotely needed. and thats a fact.

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Originally Posted by Blitzace

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At some point, though, people need to recognize the need to get back in their lane and let other jobs do THEIR own jobs. This goes for healers, as well, who seem to find ways to get caught out while in Cleric Stance.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

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Thats where the difference is between bad healer/tanks and good ones though.
And i've said it in a different thread before,

Healers -> First and last job is to keep everyone alive, what you do in between like dpsing is all bonus.
Tank -> Get hate and mitigate to the best of your ability and what ever you do in between of DPS is all pure bonus.

I mean, as a tank. When i have a healer that doesn't DPS so basicly just heals me every X seconds and then does nothing, i'm glad i sit in full STR and switch to DPS stance when ever i can.
As a healer, when i have a capable tank i can just DPS to get like 500-700DPS on average to speed things up quite a bit.

And the difference between a healer putting out 0 or 500+ is quite big. But once again... What ever they do in between as long as they keep everyone alive.

Since I saw this thread I have payed more attentiot to the gear the tanks are wearing and I have yet to meet a strength tank that is fun to heal. Vit Warrior in Dusk Vigil had no problem keeping hate, had predictable incoming damage and good use of defencive cooldowns could have had a bit less HP but doesnt matter either way, no mana problem even with dps. Str tank in Vault got taken to half his health in one blow, absolutely appropriate gear, used cooldowns sometimes but maaan did I not trust that jumping HP bar. Everyone says if youre strength you have to use cooldowns, but War doesn't have that many... I am for a good mix, too much in either direction makes for a less functional tank from what I've seen.

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Originally Posted by Uhm

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You said it yourself. The 2nd tank used cooldowns sometimes. Meaning he wasn't being an optimal STR tank. And being STR tank requires you to be optimal to make it efficient. VIT isn't easier to heal. Infact, it's HARDER to heal because the hp pool is bigger, making your heals look worse. It's simply the fact that you have a bigger buffer which makes it "safer" as you have more time for the healer to derp around before having to heal you. For a good tank, it really doesn't matter which set they use. They will still be a good tank. Whether they are an optimal tank is another story.

First mistake, Two different dungeons. Correct me if i'm wrong but vault is quite healer intensive to begin with. espescially compared with Dusk Vigil...
Second of all, you're comparing two different tanks. You should compare the same tank(You can use your fc) And use both full str & full vit.

Difference is unreal for most dungeons/trials/raids its not even needed to use ANY vit what so ever.

Why are people using things like Dusk Vigil and Vault to defend their stance? Honestly STR or VIT dosn't even matter until you hit Thorden EX and Alex Savage. Before that your stats really don't matter.

Once you get into Savage btw having more HP than you need is just a waste of stats. For example Hypercompressed Plasma is going to hit you for 20-25k unmitigated anyway so unless you have almost 30KHP (which I don't think is possible yet) having more than 16-18k HP really wont help you.

The point is you can't compare the DMG you get from some bosses/mobs in difference dungeons thats just stupid... i could say the same thing just switch STR&VIT and all off the sudded the STR person in Dusk is godlike, Cause you'll have less trouble keeping up a good str tank than a full vit tank in Vault.

No one can't deny that VIT at this point is 99% useless. And once again. STR or VIT do what ever you like, Just don't think that VIT makes a bad STR tank a good one when he switches over. Not gonna happen

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Originally Posted by Berzullha

Why are people using things like Dusk Vigil and Vault to defend their stance? Honestly STR or VIT dosn't even matter until you hit Thorden EX and Alex Savage. Before that your stats really don't matter.

Once you get into Savage btw having more HP than you need is just a waste of stats. For example Hypercompressed Plasma is going to hit you for 20-25k unmitigated anyway so unless you have almost 30KHP (which I don't think is possible yet) having more than 16-18k HP really wont help you.

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It does matter. Str makes for faster clears. faster = better. You could make the argument that being bad at the game doesn't matter until endgame raiding too, but that doesn't mean they aren't still bad at the game.

Hmm, I admit comparing two different dungeons makes it a little invalid. But I stand with my point that I've never met a good strength tank before, meaning that I don't like the thought of not so high level people (like myself) running around like that. The only time I had a similar experiance was with a really undergeared tank (The Vault).
With "easier to heal" I'm not talking about keeping them at full health at all times it's just esier to predict the damage, and only when I can predict that the tank doesn't die in the next 3 seconds can I dps as well, which is nice.
I actually don't see many strength tanks though, it would be cool to get one that makes me go "Well, that was a fun run!" some day. With tanks that have mostly Vit stuff I just assume they have their points in strength. At least that's what I do.
I find it funny that people get so defensive about this, all three things are possible and this is really just an "my opinion is the only one that matters" discussion.

No its not Uhm,

I stated multiple times people can do what ever they want STR or VIT. i don't care, It the end it just doesn't justify the lose of DMG for more HP. i never had a issue keeping people up full STR besides the bad tanks that don't use cooldowns or don't know how to use t hem and even then i could usually keep em up. I run full STR on all three tanks and i rarely swap em out in the rare occassion that i do i will need the extra HP. But as it stands right now there is no need for DMG loss for more HP. might make the healer feel more comfortable, but thats just a mind trick. Had a warrior today actually. full vit, was losing hate to me as a healer... i mean come on. Should i call every single VIT player bad now? Nope. But he wasn't doing his job right,

No cooldowns, no overpower, barely any flash was used. IL around 190 running LV60 roulette, i find it more funny that people actually defend VIT as it is right now. But once again, if people wanna run full vit, mix or full STR. what ever makes them happy as long as they do their job as a tank.