NO MORE ALEXANDER(NM)!

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

I'm pretty sure Alexander was tuned to be doable by the masses at 195-200.

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Well yes, that is what I said, i190 + i1200 gear. I wouldn't say the masses the masses though, most still haven't cleared A4S if we're talking about the raider population.

This thread is so dumb. So they should remove Alexander NM so Alexander SM can have exclusive looking armor cosmetics and story. Something that most raiders don't give a rats ass about.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Well yes, that is what I said, i190 + i1200 gear. I wouldn't say the masses the masses though, most still haven't cleared A4S if we're talking about the raider population.

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Doesn't mean people have the skill for it.

That's just the gear level they were looking for.

Expecting a 20 ilvl jump in rewards without getting any of the "in between" stuff(esoteric) is completely unreasonable.

If it were 200, I'd agree with normal > Savage without any in between.

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Originally Posted by FaizeD

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Current raiding gear becomes easily obtainable every cycle patch, it doesnt mysteriously disappear from the servers. This season's hardcore raid is next season's midcore glamour hunt. It is a far better investment of resources than any of the other casual themepark garbage that quickly become wastelands, like Gold Saucer.

Heaven forbid casuals wont have all the shinies at the exact same time as people who raid. Oh my stars and garters, what is the world coming to when one is rewarded for accomplishing something in a game! I hate crafting, I should be able to get red scrips sent to me in the mail every week, because I mean it would be so unfair to have content that only so few people can do. It's totes discrimination. I have a job. I can't craft. My fingers hurt when I craft. Crafting is against my personal beliefs. Where are my red scrips pls.

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Here's the thing, SE now has NO reason to 'echo' buff Alex Savage. Not only that, they could actually implement an ilvl cap to it to keep it at a certain challenge level (you know, avoiding the BC2 Savage title farm people can now do b/c of unsync/higher gear level scores etc).
So while you might think 'all the more reason for special shinies', and I'm not really disagreeing with you on that point. (While I personally think the actual Alex Savage raid is boring, gear looking similar to Normal doesn't bother me), SE now has the option of keeping Savage, well, Savage...because normal mode already gives people 'story/general' access to it. No need for nerfs/echo's/uncapped ilvls etc once new content is added.

Now, this DOES also mean, anyone who has the items from Alex Savage...even 6 months down the road, has some bragging rights....as again, no reason to nerf it. It can stay hard, challenging and not easily accessible. Heck, there's really no reason to even bother putting it in the DF (kinda like Savage Mode BC2).

But you get a title (visual) and a unique mount (visual) for clearing the raid. That should be enough visual epeen. Most people glam their gears anyway....and judging from how few people I see in Normal Mode gears, not like this gear style was that popular anyway Which might be your bigger issue, you just don't like the style. Period.

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Originally Posted by Jamillion

Wait, what? How does the existence of normal mode in any way sway anyone from running savage (that planned to run it anyway)? Sounds like a lot of QQing over nothing.

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It just makes savage mode less appealing (i.e. there's nothing new to see).

I am playing mainly for story and the love of the FF series. I am working Alex normal at the moment A4 to be exact, I like the idea of Normal and Savage modes for the raid dungeons. Why I have no interest in doing savage I do love a challenge, I also agree that savage needs to be more rewarding then what it is currently. Normal should exist for story and too ready the main player base for upcoming content, with Savage mode doing the same for harden Raiders. Lastly gating story content behind Savage mode is a real lame move. Higher end gear, achievements, mounts things along those lines are fine too gate behind savage mode, Story though needs to stay open to everyone.

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Originally Posted by Melch

It just makes savage mode less appealing (i.e. there's nothing new to see).

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Yeah, i just wish they would come up with something else at this point. Alex Normal isn't much more fun than a normal trial. Savage A4S is at a level way higher than most people can reasonably play at to get the dyeable chestplate, weapon, and mount. If the airship thing becomes a flop. I can see a lot of people not wanting to run ex roullette for another 4 months, and calling that endgame.

*Deleted due to editing errors

I still maintain that they should have released Alex normal and then an entirely different, progressive raid instead of savage.

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Originally Posted by Bodicca

I still maintain that they should have released Alex normal and then an entirely different, progressive raid instead of savage.

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The purpose of Normal Mode is for non-raiders to see the environments created and the story. Creating a new raid would, you know, kinda defeat the purpose of Normal Mode.

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Originally Posted by Einheri

A long time ago in a game known as WoW a dev explained why they spend so much resources on raid content, content they acknowledged very few people who played actively participate in. In short is was to inspire people who didn't raid to want to raid. It was also there reason for very visually distinct raid armor.

They wanted the small %of players who progressively raided motivate those who didn't have the time or skill. They spoke of how in town a raider would have this armor and people walking by would stop and go oh wow that guy is a raider his armor is sop cool I want to raid.

But with time they decided that catering to 5%of the player base wasnt fair and created raid content for every one with different color pallets on the armor vs difficulty.

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It amuses me to think that this was the exact time WoW began to go sour. Wanting is a more powerful motivator than having. That a sizable portion of the player base can look at content integral to the current model - be that looking up at savage or down at normal - and declare it worthless is a very bad sign, indeed. It suggests that the model does not motivate adequately.

During the glory days of WoW Vanilla, I never got to clear Naxx - but its existence excited me, and it was a strong motivator to keep playing. I was never offended by it, and never getting there didn't ruin the game for me. The majority of the people I knew didn't clear it, either. They weren't offended by this - it didn't push them from the game. High mountains, scaled or not, keep you climbing if the journey is satisfying.

Giving people what they want killed WoW. It'll kill FFXIV, next. I'm seeing the exact same signs, plain as day.

No, a "we know what's fun, you don't, now shut up, pleb" attitude is what killed WoW, and it surfaced right after Wrath.

Accessibility of content was one of the things that made that the game's peak.

Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Bodicca

I still maintain that they should have released Alex normal and then an entirely different, progressive raid instead of savage.

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So you want exclusive, completely different content to stroke your ego in a non raid centric game.

How about no?

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Originally Posted by Colorful

The purpose of Normal Mode is for non-raiders to see the environments created and the story. Creating a new raid would, you know, kinda defeat the purpose of Normal Mode.

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I understand your point, however, normal IS part of the gear progression. Raiders aren't burning themselves out on normal because they want to see the environment and story over and over and over again. Its purpose is also gear progression.

No reason to make the same encounter on hard mode. A different raid would have been fine whether everyone got to experience it or not. I don't get this "everyone has to see everything every game has to offer." If non-raiders don't see all the raid environments that's perfectly ok. They're NON-RAIDERS.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

So you want exclusive, completely different content to stroke your ego in a non raid centric game.

How about no?

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Wanting completely different content has nothing to do with ego and only casuals seem to use this argument all over again.
What's so hard to understand on the fact that when someone spends lots of time doing something, he maybe wants it to be... entertaining?
How can be raiding entertaining when the requirement to do it is a gear from almost the same encounter with same bosses and arenas? And yeah, having normal Alex gear mixed with ESO is requirement for Alex Savage unless you plan to do it in 2016, which kinda wouldn't make sense.

The only thing I am seeing in this thread are a few elitists asking something impossible and entitled casuals who feel like everything has to be handed out to them because they pay subscription.

Even content for 5% of community is worth doing, no content caters to everyone and having stuff to do for casuals and for hardcore players only expands the community.
You guys don't care for savage and don't mind anything that happens to it, well I do. Coil was the only reason I kept logging a few times a week and Alex Savage would be the same if it wasn't so hard to maintain static with all these people leaving of boredoom. People who feel the same try to figure out how to make hardcore raiding appealing to people again and all you are doing is just being afraid that you might not have 100% of FFXIVs content for you. Everything except savage in this game is completely fine and doable without any difficulties and still, even the savage seems to be thorn in eye for everyone...

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Originally Posted by Bodicca

I understand your point, however, normal IS part of the gear progression. Raiders aren't burning themselves out on normal because they want to see the environment and story over and over and over again. Its purpose is also gear progression.

No reason to make the same encounter on hard mode. A different raid would have been fine whether everyone got to experience it or not. I don't get this "everyone has to see everything every game has to offer." If non-raiders don't see all the raid environments that's perfectly ok. They're NON-RAIDERS.

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For me crafting was always unreachable as raiding is unreachable for some people, but I never was on forums saying there should be less finances going into crafting and more in raiding or anything else like that. Some people really think that the whole game should cater only to them because they are the majority.

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Originally Posted by Bodicca

How, exactly, would this stroke my ego?

I never did coils, never will. I'll never do savage. And if SE had made a completely different, progressive raid to follow Alex, I most likely would never have done that either. That's my choice. Why should people who enjoy a harder, progressive game experience be required to burn themselves out in the same damn encounter over and over because that's not what I want to do?

Talk about selfish . . .

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Glad I have seen someone like this today, faith in community restored.

TL;DR:
Raiders have and always had only one piece of content that was truly made for them and now the content was completely downgraded by the need to farm its another version before entering to the savage (that's a fact, doing savage with fully eso gear having 800 ACC makes completely no sense). Asking for change is apparently selfish. OK.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

So you want exclusive, completely different content to stroke your ego in a non raid centric game.

How about no?

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How, exactly, would this stroke my ego?

I never did coils, never will. I'll never do savage. And if SE had made a completely different, progressive raid to follow Alex, I most likely would never have done that either. That's my choice. Why should people who enjoy a harder, progressive game experience be required to burn themselves out in the same damn encounter over and over because that's not what I want to do?

Talk about selfish . . .

Savage encounter should be different from normal in both context and mechanics. Story though should remain the same because this was a key complaint in ARR's Coil. Maybe you should think more about the carrot and less about the stick. What things would make you want to run Savage?

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Originally Posted by Yeldir

It amuses me to think that this was the exact time WoW began to go sour. Wanting is a more powerful motivator than having. That a sizable portion of the player base can look at content integral to the current model - be that looking up at savage or down at normal - and declare it worthless is a very bad sign, indeed. It suggests that the model does not motivate adequately.

During the glory days of WoW Vanilla, I never got to clear Naxx - but its existence excited me, and it was a strong motivator to keep playing. I was never offended by it, and never getting there didn't ruin the game for me. The majority of the people I knew didn't clear it, either. They weren't offended by this - it didn't push them from the game. High mountains, scaled or not, keep you climbing if the journey is satisfying.

Giving people what they want killed WoW. It'll kill FFXIV, next. I'm seeing the exact same signs, plain as day.

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WoW also had a TON of things to do other than raid. Not any more.

During its glory days through Wrath, Blizzard succeeded in creating a world with its own culture. That is the sole reason that WoW boasted over 12 million subs at one point. LFR, CRZ and ridiculous accessibility ruined that culture. It's a shame, too, because they "had it." But like you said they threw it away by making things easy for the player - from removing RP items like regents and ammo to removing the community.

RIP WoW.

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Originally Posted by Bodicca

I understand your point, however, normal IS part of the gear progression. Raiders aren't burning themselves out on normal because they want to see the environment and story over and over and over again. Its purpose is also gear progression.

No reason to make the same encounter on hard mode. A different raid would have been fine whether everyone got to experience it or not. I don't get this "everyone has to see everything every game has to offer." If non-raiders don't see all the raid environments that's perfectly ok. They're NON-RAIDERS.

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Frankly that's just the way it's designed, believe it or not they don't have the money to create content to appeal to everyone every patch cycle. So what do they do in turn? Make it accessible to everyone. It's either that, or release the 24 man raid and 8 man raids every patch cycle which we know to be impossible as they barely manage to put out Void Ark without a 5 month wait. What is your solution to that? Take up crafting? Many people want PvE progression that's not banging your head against a wall, in WoW we have flex/normal which is a little easier than EX primals (speaking from my experience with Siege of Orgrimmar), with FFXIV on even numbered patches it's either raid, or be bored because you have nothing to do aim for. The thing is some people are asking for content to literally be removed from other people, not delayed, no. Removed. That is a selfish mentality, period. What is reasonable is asking for Savage to be released first by a few months, but anything else is clearly selfish and trying to justify that attitude by clouding it as one piece of content is a sorry way to do so. Yes, it is one piece of content, but it is the largest piece of content.

Some people are thinking of it the wrong way, right now it's "I have nothing to do because I've done it in an easier form". Their proposed solution is: "Give me something to do at the expense of everyone else, I don't care if they end up in the same situation as I am now, just do it". I don't see how people are unable to see the hypocrisy.

As I said earlier, release normal 1-2 months later. Problem solved.

If crafters also get gear that is exclusive to us that no one else can never aquire without crafting it themselves I'm in full support of this. Welcome to the minority raiders, let me know if you want some ilvl 180 gear, I'll hook you up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas#t=6m25s I agree with this guy saying things getting too accessible and easy. It kills or lessens any drive to put in work and improve as a player to see raid content and get loot.

For me I would've like alex nm to not be a requirement to unlock savage, released at least at the same time as savage or a little later. If nm is going to drop decent gear I'd prefer it to have the difficulty of extreme primals rather than face-roll easy.

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Originally Posted by Aniforani

If crafters also get gear that is exclusive to us that no one else can never aquire without crafting it themselves I'm in full support of this. Welcome to the minority raiders, let me know if you want some ilvl 180 gear, I'll hook you up.

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You mean houses that only crafters were able to afford?

Crafting has a lot of perks that raiding does not. However, raiding has been losing its perks over time, on top of the sameness between normal and savage burning players out. Raiding in 3.0 is a big downgrade from 2.0 and has been incredibly frustrating as keeping a static together has become near impossible with everyone burning out. All of the major statics that I know of on my server have either broken up or have been having high attrition rates, Square really should try to do something to help keep raiding interesting.

Also, back when people were arguing for story mode, most were saying it should not drop gear, and thus not be part of the progression cycle.

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Originally Posted by dejavutwo

You mean houses that only crafters were able to afford?

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I've grinded mats 30-40 minutes every day for the past month from monsters and a little over 1.5 million gil now, a raider can sell runs for what, like 30+ million for A1S. You can make gil from every playstyle.

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Originally Posted by DGladius

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas#t=6m25s I agree with this guy saying things getting too accessible and easy. It kills or lessens any drive to put in work and improve as a player to see raid content and get loot.

For me I would've like alex nm to not be a requirement to unlock savage, released at least at the same time as savage or a little later. If nm is going to drop decent gear I'd prefer it to have the difficulty of extreme primals rather than face-roll easy.

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It's amazing how everything said in that video accurately describes the situation we have in in XIV currently

"It kills or lessens any drive to put in work and improve as a player to see raid content and get loot. "

Monetary-wise, it's better to kill the strive of 8% of the community than the other 92% who doesn't raid at all.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

So you want exclusive, completely different content to stroke your ego in a non raid centric game.

How about no?

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If it's a non-raid centric game, as you say, so it shouldn't matter if there is a story, because the game isn't centered around Coil/Alexander.

Or do you simply want to stroke your own ego because now you can have that 1% of content, that as you say the game isn't centered around, without doing anything for it?

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

"It kills or lessens any drive to put in work and improve as a player to see raid content and get loot. "

Monetary-wise, it's better to kill the strive of 8% of the community than the other 92% who doesn't raid at all.

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How having 1 piece of content for 8% players kills the game?
Driving away 8% of players and then another small portion that will have its content and you won't like it will kill the game faster. Because every time you slice a piece of pie away, it gets smaller and in the end you end up with nothing.

If you want to have content created only with you in mind, maybe it is time to start developing your own game.

EDIT: Monetary wise it's better not to get rid of any part of community. :)

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

"It kills or lessens any drive to put in work and improve as a player to see raid content and get loot. "

Monetary-wise, it's better to kill the strive of 8% of the community than the other 92% who doesn't raid at all.

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lolwut.

This is the same dumb argument made by non-raiders over and over. Catering one piece of content somehow kills off the rest of the content? If someone quits over that then they weren't going to be playing FFXIV for much longer anyway.

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Originally Posted by dejavutwo

You mean houses that only crafters were able to afford.

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Nope, I want to make exclusive gear that cannot be bought or traded so I can parade it around in front of all non crafting players to let them know how awesome crafting so you can be motivated to craft too. That is what people are asking here isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Aniforani

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Nope, I want to make exclusive gear that cannot be bought or traded so I can parade it around in front of all non crafting players to let them know how awesome crafting so you can be motivated to craft too. That is what people are asking here isn't it?

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Isn't that exactly what red scrips gear is? Awesome gear for crafters that is done for each job separatedly and looks nice... cannot be traded or bought.
You got yours..

Sure, you cannot craft some ultra cool special gear for others jobs (except thavnarian), but you have special gear dedicated only for you.

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Originally Posted by Aniforani

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Nope, I want to make exclusive gear that cannot be bought or traded so I can parade it around in front of all non crafting players to let them know how awesome crafting so you can be motivated to craft too. That is what people are asking here isn't it?

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I mean i would be fine with this actually <.<

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

Isn't that exactly what red scrips gear is? Awesome gear for crafters that is done for each job separatedly and looks nice... cannot be traded or bought.
You got yours..

Sure, you cannot craft some ultra cool special gear for others jobs (except thavnarian), but you have special gear dedicated only for you.

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Can't the AF2 gear (crafters) be sold? I would have sworn I saw it on the marketboard...

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Originally Posted by Ryel

I mean i would be fine with this actually <.<

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I am used to craft my gear in every other MMO I play so I am kinda fine with that too.
I am not against crafters being able to make some worthy stuff as far as it isn't the only viable gear in game. Something on par with ESO could be nice.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Can't the AF2 gear (crafters) be sold? I would have sworn I saw it on the marketboard...

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Gear bought for red scrips cannot be sold, but gear crafted using materials for red scrips can be.

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Originally Posted by dejavutwo

You mean houses that only crafters were able to afford?

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*Looks at all those raiders who sold carries and have 100m houses*Yeah its totally just the crafters.

I have an idea on how to make an alternative to Savage most players could enjoy, even our hardcore crowd. But... I think I may need help on how to present it. If I pitch it as it is, it'll be too verbose and not enough visual flare for it to be appealing to read.

But... I really think I'm onto something here. A sort of endgame raid that's easy to grasp, but hard to master, that rewards skill over gearclimb - gives substantive rewards that players will hold onto for longer than when the ilvl increases while positively encouraging players to improve to reach the best rewards.

I just had to remember, we're playing a video game.

In Coil you were progressing through content you hadn't seen yet. In Alexander your progressing through content you've beaten multiple times already. Just for that reason alone Coil was way better than Alexander. Forget Alexander for now. Can we just get a little bit of challenging content that isn't a rehashed version of stuff on duty finder? Am I an asshole for wanting that? I guess so :( I'm going to go cry in a corner now because I'm already bored of Heavensward.

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

The whole Savage and Normal thing was a terrible idea in the first place. Mid core players like myself are stuck in a limbo of Normal being too easy and savage being too hard it's hard not to feel left out when casual and minority hardcore get their raids. Final coil was perfect difficulty for me it wasn't easy but not stupidly over the top hard.

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This right here. Normal should have been mid core. Not a face role thing where people completed every floor on the first day and got a guide made on the first day. It was very badly designed and the cs them selves don't even give that epic feeling like how Coil was. I am in a static that wants to do savage but wev had no shows for over 2 weeks and we only got past Faust in AS1 and from all the static recrutments and people looking for one we may not even be able to replace because every ones either on AS3or 4 progression.


If Alexander Normal was meant to exist so all can experience the story.

Then why the hell dose it even give loot? I think this is the question that needs to be asked and answered.

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Originally Posted by Dererk

Then why the hell dose it even give loot? I think this is the question that needs to be asked and answered.

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To ensure that people would actually run it. It's either loot or a fat stack of tomes.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

In Coil you were progressing through content you hadn't seen yet. In Alexander your progressing through content you've beaten multiple times already. Just for that reason alone Coil was way better than Alexander. Forget Alexander for now. Can we just get a little bit of challenging content that isn't a rehashed version of stuff on duty finder? Am I an asshole for wanting that? I guess so :( I'm going to go cry in a corner now because I'm already bored of Heavensward.

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no but we are the assholes, selfish, egocentric raiders who want all for ourself... In this threat I've come to realize how Hypocrite our community is for the part of the "casuals" even tho I don't consider myself "Hardcore". I like how I see them using this words (selfish,egocentric or saying that we just want to show off[e-peen]) and that focusing on the hardcore on a content that is designed to be "HARD" which only consist on the probably less than 5% of the entire game will hurt the game, that it's selfish for us to want to have a motivation to do this extremely hard content yet the other 95% of the game is as casual and accessible as it gets, BUT we are the selfish, for wanting this small 5% not to be worthless or be so redundant even tho they still have all the rest of the 95%...yeah we are selfish... feel free to look up the meaning of hypocrisy... I don't know where this community of gamers came from who believe everything needs to be handed on a silver plate for them, content is hard? "git gud" every good game has it's hard content that in order to beat it you need to put your best on it, that's where games are entertaining, if you are a TRUE FF FAN then you know that as good as story is, every ending has a boss that will rip your soul for some and for some will be a walk for others but not because the ones that can't beat complain they will tune it down and f#$% the ones the enjoyed the challenge. seriously is like a bunch of sensitive people just took over the world for past decade...

catering 5% of the game for 5% of the community won't hurt the other 95%, if you don't like the challenge don't go for it, it's your choice no one is blocking you, no one is getting advantage over anyone since anyone can just gear up just as good by the time the next patch come, no one will have better chances to beat it we are free to do whatever we want so there's no exclusivity of any sortthis is not wow. people should stop barking and start thinking before they write.

do we get to see story that other don't? yes we work hard for it, as well as you and anyone can work hard for it too.

do we get exclusive gear? fck yeah! we work hard for it as well as you an anyone can.

that's the reward, and motivation to do the hard work, you think is not fair? then why is it fair that I need to work hard to achieve something that you can easily get?

and on a serious note, some around here need to check themselves calling people arrogant, selfish, egocentric, etc... they can't stop and realize that they are being exactly what they are predicting 95% telling 5% that they are selfish just for wanting 5% of the cake is exactly the opposite of what they believe they are...

I leave the rest to you to think about that...

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Originally Posted by Dererk

Then why the hell dose it even give loot? I think this is the question that needs to be asked and answered.

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Why not? Alex normal stuff isn't something that breaks the game. it helps you gear for savage. and for some ppl it was probably helpful when it came to bismarck and ravana.

also to keep it relevant. it is something for the weekly routine. I can even see them adding a weekly quest at one point to give out upgrade items similar to the CT quest.

on topic: seeing how hard it is to keep a competent static running, normal alex needs to stay. it's enjoyable content after all. in my opinion at least