How is BLM in new expansion?

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

May we see those parses? As far I'm concerned. Black Mages get about 1.1k-1.2k DPS on a dummy so 1430 sounds really high.

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I agree. My opener is around 1700 with like a 2k spike, but after that it levels out around 1100 sustained

BLM DPS tapers to around 1100-1200 pretty dang consistently in full BiS. If he got 1400+ in a group scenario though that's completely plausible, Foe's + Selene, or the fight was just 2m or so. Believe it or not the current Selene's still a nice little boost, did a couple trial parses with one and consistently neared 1200 and it felt much smoother.

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Originally Posted by Sindri_Myr

Im curious to know when Square Enix will boot all them people that using third party software to check their dps.

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Originally Posted by Sindri_Myr

Im curious to know when Square Enix will boot all them people that using third party software to check their dps.

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Until they implement an ingame system for it or release an official parser, we will use third-party tools. MMO players want to know how they're doing so they can optimize and improve their play, it's nothing new and it's not going away.

Blm is no longer fun in my opinion, and it seems to have become more of a chore to play than anything. In fights with a lot of dodge mechanics, odds are you will be last in DPS unless there is another BLM who is worse than you, a BRD, or another DPS that is just really bad at their job. BLM is way too punishing, and it feels awful when a tornado spawns on you, you lose your whole enochian rotation and you have low mana, and then you look up to see everyone still doing dps. These people who are saying it is a more rewarding experience and punishes those who can't perform their jobs are honestly just in denial or think themselves to be so elite, that they can still out dps anyone with their blm - but the numbers just don't add up. They need to: A) Make Ley Lines bigger or just give us a non-stationary SS buff, B) Increase the duration of AF and UI, and C) If we cast Blizzard 4 while enochian is on, it should go off regardless of whether or not we lose it during the cast.

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Originally Posted by rulebreaker51092

Blm is no longer fun in my opinion, and it seems to have become more of a chore to play than anything. In fights with a lot of dodge mechanics, odds are you will be last in DPS unless there is another BLM who is worse than you, a BRD, or another DPS that is just really bad at their job. BLM is way too punishing, and it feels awful when a tornado spawns on you, you lose your whole enochian rotation and you have low mana, and then you look up to see everyone still doing dps. These people who are saying it is a more rewarding experience and punishes those who can't perform their jobs are honestly just in denial or think themselves to be so elite, that they can still out dps anyone with their blm - but the numbers just don't add up. They need to: A) Make Ley Lines bigger or just give us a non-stationary SS buff, B) Increase the duration of AF and UI, and C) If we cast Blizzard 4 while enochian is on, it should go off regardless of whether or not we lose it during the cast.

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The way BLM is now is how MNK has always been to some extent and how DRG was before 2.45 and now is once again with the new buff to keep up with positionals. Playing BLM to an acceptable level was easy before - adding a bit of complexity to bring it up to par with other jobs in terms of effort/reward is not a bad thing. They've done the same with BRD and they're crying out that their job's been ruined as well simply because it's harder now. You still put out 1100 DPS sustained on dummy and probably about 800 in actual fights, which is exactly what I'm doing as DRG.

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Originally Posted by seekified

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Oh...u have played a lvl 60 blm?^^
If u say the BLM is like MNK an DRG now ... pls don't forget the 2.3 sec Cast Time to refresh your 10 sec buff

But since i can't compare those classes, maybe they have also something like cast times to refresh their buffs...

I've been a BLM main since the beta on PS3 and I've stuck with it even though the rotation was easy and boring. Now its actually fun to play. I guess not many people like a challenge.

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Originally Posted by AkkoAihara

Oh...u have played a lvl 60 blm?^^
If u say the BLM is like MNK an DRG now ... pls don't forget the 2.3 sec Cast Time to refresh your 10 sec buff

But since i can't compare those classes, maybe they have also something like cast times to refresh their buffs...

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I haven't, but my best friend is a BLM and we've discussed things at length and I've read up enough on the intricacies on the job to at least have an opinon, even if I obviously haven't tested things myself.

I don't mean to be rude here, but historically many BLMs come across as lazy and adverse to challenges. They also tend to be the ones who rarely bother to level another job. Call me judging, but that's my two cents.

Sigh... WTB front-loaded AF/UI effects.
Its a possible compromise.
Basically as soon as you start casting a spell, the appropriate buff is applied, along with the gcd and so forth, though you still need to finish casting to do any damage (and pay the mana cost at successful cast completion).
This would mean 2 things.

1. You can no longer time your UI3-F3 to get the 2nd UI3 tick during the first ~75% of the F3 cast. Instead the moment you hit F3, you are in AF3, no questions asked.
2. If you are forced to move at a time where you need to refresh AF3, you can simply hit F1 while moving (assuming you meet the mana cost), it will instantly refresh AF3, start the gcd, and be interrupted.
This way we would have the option of saving the AF3 condition at the cost of losing 1 gcd worth of damage... "Like Monks"

Agree on the front-loaded AF/UI effects, the whole waiting for the phases to change before you can start casting is troll-tier. This game is a little behind in some actual programmatic effects to the point where it's a little annoying.

As an aside, is there an optimal rotation yet? I don't know about these B3 > T1 openers with thunderclouds and swiftcast flare converts thrown in...

On reddit there's a rotation of basically just:

Leylines > F3 > Enochian > RS > Fire 4 > Fire 4 > Sharpcast F1 > Fire 4 > Fire 4 > Firestarter > Convert > Fire 4 > Fire 4 > Blizzard 3 > Blizzard 4 > Rinse Repeat.

I don't see where anyone has the time or the desire to throw in thunderclouds or to waste time casting a puny thunder 1 with how tight these timers are so I've been sticking with the above rotation above because it pulls 1100 on dummys in law gear. My only complaint is you cut it super close on the last F4 with raging strikes(need a little more spell speed).

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Originally Posted by Dajinn

On reddit there's a rotation of basically just:

Leylines > F3 > Enochian > RS > Fire 4 > Fire 4 > Sharpcast F1 > Fire 4 > Fire 4 > Firestarter > Convert > Fire 4 > Fire 4 > Blizzard 3 > Blizzard 4 > Rinse Repeat.

I don't see where anyone has the time or the desire to throw in thunderclouds or to waste time casting a puny thunder 1 with how tight these timers are so I've been sticking with the above rotation above because it pulls 1100 on dummys in law gear. My only complaint is you cut it super close on the last F4 with raging strikes(need a little more spell speed).

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That does seem to be the ideal at the moment - he says throwing in Thunders is a straight DPS loss. Kinda odd, but hey.

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Originally Posted by seekified

The way BLM is now is how MNK has always been to some extent and how DRG was before 2.45 and now is once again with the new buff to keep up with positionals. Playing BLM to an acceptable level was easy before - adding a bit of complexity to bring it up to par with other jobs in terms of effort/reward is not a bad thing. They've done the same with BRD and they're crying out that their job's been ruined as well simply because it's harder now. You still put out 1100 DPS sustained on dummy and probably about 800 in actual fights, which is exactly what I'm doing as DRG.

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You do realize that Monk had their Greased Lightning timer increased in 2.1 because of the same issues that are being complained about, and their damage up buff isn't required to be up for the rotation to work.

Its not ruined because its harder, there are inherant issues with a 10 second Astral Fire Timer along with a "stance" (enochain) that when refreshed gets its timer reduced. Combined with the nerf in spellspeed, the nerf with seleen, the 3.0 second cast time for Fire 3 and cast time on Fire 1), its slower to refresh your stacks than an instant cast melee attack - the rotation does not allow you to do everything as well as being as mobile as what you need to be end game fights.

Then you have the Thunderclouds being made useless, and Ley Lines being made very situational due to the amount of movement in end game fights.

But from your posts, you've made it abundantly clear that you aren't being objective here. And the fact that you think that its fine for BLM's to drop down to 800 dps in actual fight just says a lot.

BLM is just ass right now. inb4 "git gud" and "learn the fights". Having to juggle two stances is just absolute trash. I'd rather them just drop enochian altogether, make ley lines into a self-only attack speed buff like fey glow that doesn't leave a stupid ground marker, and just make fire 4 and blizzard 3 refresh astral/umbral. I keep going back and forth with the love/hate state of the class right now, I'm like it's not so bad, then I do another dungeon and I'm like fuck this garbage. I'll leave it to them to find out uses for blizzard and fire 4, maybe just make them only available on a proc from fire 3 and increase the potency to keep their dps in line.

Andddd this is the first time sinc eI play this game SMN is funnier to play than BLM (for me at least) :3

DrgS new stance requires timer refreshing however the positional only do damage if you miss a positional it will be a chunk of dps lost but you can still keep your stance on. Essentially it's the same as Enochin but you never have to worry about loosing it.

Anytime a boss goes immune thunder can still be used. I throw it up on the never reap boss befor he goes running around. The thunder stater procs help deal with the adds. However when theory crafting it's a dps loss and it needs some tweaking because it just doesn't work right now with balancing stances and keeping up Enochin, and manawall loss of mobility, those thunder stater procs would have been nice to keep. We already have 2 worthless spells and now we have 3. Thunder usage now requires you to know the fight well befor you can use it, and even then it's not all that useful.

Uhhhh, an immune boss won't be affect by any DoT so Thunder is useless.

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Originally Posted by seekified

That does seem to be the ideal at the moment - he says throwing in Thunders is a straight DPS loss. Kinda odd, but hey.

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Ya know what would be awesome, if SE made the thunder spells instant cast high damaging spells that are off the GCD so you weave them into your rotation, with a reasonable cooldown.

It would make sense if the remaining BLMs choose to drop thunder alltogether.

Something like the thunder spell in 1.0 if im not mistaken, the one with stun effect.

I like it!
Instant Thunder, with Thundercloud proc!
Instant Instant Thunder! So Instant... its already happened... 0.o

BLM needs some immediate attention.

I dont mind rotations to learn or adapt to! but they MUST design abilities to possible in the current design of move every couple seconds ...then again..and again..and one more time BEFORE theres a chance to cast yet another 3 second spell.....again. <-- now that is slightly exaggerated.

Changes are fine but then design fights to allow them to be used effectively.

Simple fix stop the ridiculous movment or change the timers slightly..(i actually like the new moves the idea of the new roatation is fun!!BUT not practical at all with the bad fight designs., thats why they need attention

It has nothing to do with a challenge its a flawed design to begin with, so fix it.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Uhhhh, an immune boss won't be affect by any DoT so Thunder is useless.

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Yes never reap goes immune, however dots still ti and thunder starter still procs. Boss aren't always immune when you loose the ability to target them. Even if the boss takes 0 damage the spell still hits and crits for 0 damage, or ticks for immune damage and still gives you a thunder starter proc, because all c thunder cloud require is the dot tic not for it to do damage. For instance in AK HM the final boss takes 0 damage while he charges but isn't immune, you can refresh umbra ice, or get a firestarter proc ready, and cast thunder in hopes of a proc. That way when's done casting you have all the tools you need to jump back in at full damage.

5% chance is a lot to hope for in only 5 ticks assuming you're applying thunder 1. i mean i guess it's maximizing the tools the class has but ehhhhhhh.

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

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Then he has an infinite buffer... Because immune targets don't take dots and don't give you AF or UI stacks.

Also, I did 823 in Ravana Ex. I guess it's good if I consider my party was double monk, machinist, black mage, warrior, paladin, astrologist (was getting archer cards and aoe balance), anmd scholar with selene. Would probably do 900 dps+ with a bard since they can sing Foe only in that fight.

This is probably the most opposite opinion of a lot of people but I just really at this point am hoping casters aren't nerfed.

Screw BLM vs SMN. It's us casters, vs the non-casters, and we're winning right now.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Screw BLM vs SMN. It's us casters, vs the non-casters, and we're winning right now.

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THe DPS difference on Dummy is definitely less compared to 2.4. Last time, they buffed melees. I'd rather not see a nerf on BLM :\ How much melees do in Ravana Ex usually?

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

THe DPS difference on Dummy is definitely less compared to 2.4. Last time, they buffed melees. I'd rather not see a nerf on BLM :\ How much melees do in Ravana Ex usually?

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900+. About the same as BLM under perfect conditions.

Then it comes for them to skills and how to properly do their rotation with fights like BLMs. I'm pretty sure with a full group favoring me I'd do 950+ I still think on unknown grounds Summoner is better.

I think they really missed the ticket in not putting in Thunder 4. Give it some kind of effect to extend enochain by 5 seconds, and can only be used upon a Thundercloud. Bam, you don't have the enochain issues it brings, you get more variety with Sharpcast.

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Originally Posted by seekified

I haven't, but my best friend is a BLM and we've discussed things at length and I've read up enough on the intricacies on the job to at least have an opinon, even if I obviously haven't tested things myself.

I don't mean to be rude here, but historically many BLMs come across as lazy and adverse to challenges. They also tend to be the ones who rarely bother to level another job. Call me judging, but that's my two cents.

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Imagine that every time you moved, it would interrupt your current combo and you'd have to start from the beginning and the duration of your BotD was reduced by 10 seconds. That's roughly the problem we're facing.

Wouldn't A LOT of BLM problems be lessened by this change to Surecast:
Next spell is cast without interruption and can be cast while moving.

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Originally Posted by OmegaStrongtan

Wouldn't A LOT of BLM problems be lessened by this change to Surecast:
Next spell is cast without interruption and can be cast while moving.

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AKA another Swiftcast without the instant effect. It actually would solve a lot of our issues but it would also make it nearly braindead to execute IMO.

It's been said so many times, just a small timer adjustment to AF and/or Enochian here or there, to help with the RNG aspect and possibly promote Enochian fulltime through phase shifts (which may or may not be the intent). Maybe an AoE increase a little bit so we're not outclassed in that department if another T4 or T12 comes along.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

AKA another Swiftcast without the instant effect. It actually would solve a lot of our issues but it would also make it nearly braindead to execute IMO.

It's been said so many times, just a small timer adjustment to AF and/or Enochian here or there, to help with the RNG aspect and possibly promote Enochian fulltime through phase shifts (which may or may not be the intent). Maybe an AoE increase a little bit so we're not outclassed in that department if another T4 or T12 comes along.

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I'd agree with this, with a rework of Thundercloud so that we aren't punished for using it (enochain wise). I don't think making BLM hyper mobile is the answer, I think rewarding good BLM's that can suffer the poor mobility is better.

I find all of this a bit premature to be honest.
We are less than two weeks since launch, and already people calling for such n such needs to be buffed, something else needs extending, blah blah needs potency increased

Yes it's definitely that SE have ruined everything, and certainly not that a lot of people just haven't got used to things changing /rollseyes /sarcasm

we cleared both primals several times with two BLMs and no SMNs, so even if there is a disparity in dps, it can't be so high as to actually affect anything yet. Whether it will in Alexander remains to be seen, and so is not worth commenting on yet

Just 12 days from launch, and people seem to be under the impression they should already be at the peak of their performance

Do I think I'm the best BLM? Course not.
Am I looking forward to the challenge of learning every nuance of the changes brought in so I can squeak out as much dps as I can? absolutely

It almost as if players that have a clue take a short amount of time to theorycraft because its really not that difficult. The evidence is there, feel free to tell me how using Thundercloud procs won't mess up your enochain timing, its almost as if Monks had their greased lightning timer increased in 2.1 because they couldn't fit their rotation in with any significant mechanics (With BLM, 2.9+2.9+2.41=8.41 - not accounting for latency or mechanics). Its almost as if Fey Glow and Spellspeed got completely gutted for BLM.

Those are facts and no amount of time and practice will overcome those.

I'm not the best BLM, but I certainly do very well with the class and I know my theorycrafting. I'm looking forward to the challenge as much as you, but there needs to be changes; the class clearly wasn't tested properly.

Regarding future raid mechanics - Its almost as if movement is a core part of raiding or something. Who knew?

I guess we just disagree. You think Enochian is too hard to keep up, I think we should actually wait to see how much movement is needed in Alex before whining

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

I guess we just disagree. You think Enochian is too hard to keep up, I think we should actually wait to see how much movement is needed in Alex before whining

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Read what I posted. Its too hard to keep it up with an optimal dps rotation in combination with everything. With the low astral fire timer. With the reducing buff timer. With movement. It also prevents the use of thunder, and there are also issues with the Spellspeed nerf, with the Fey Glow nerf and the fact that we are using 3 second casts now instead of 2.5 seconds.

Alex isn't going to be a 0 mechanic training dummy fest. The only one that has come close to one is T8 and even then there are mechanics to do which involved; you guessed it, movement!

Its not whining, its using facts and experience to come up with a justified conclusion, rather than, for lack of a better expression, putting your fingers in your ears and screaming "lalala i'm not listening".

i love the argument "hurr less than 2 weeks since launch and look at all the whining". one of the expansion's first major raid is about to launch and this game hasn't been beta tested by the players at all since it was announced 8 months ago. when, exactly, do you think the complaining is warranted?

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Originally Posted by Dajinn

i love the argument "hurr less than 2 weeks since launch and look at all the whining". one of the expansion's first major raid is about to launch and this game hasn't been beta tested by the players at all since it was announced 8 months ago. when, exactly, do you think the complaining is warranted?

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There was actual tests. I'm pretty confident jobs were tested on a dummy. "SMN and BLM dps are alike, job done." Reality doesn't reflect that lol.

I think BLM players, generally, need to get over the idea that it's okay to for us to be ineffective on movement fights. Frankly, balance is when the fight doesn't matter and you can still compete. But, let's be honest here: If Alex is anything like Never or Bismark, BLM is going to have a rough time. Speaking of which, our having a spot to abuse on Bismark, doesn't mean we're good at Bismark. It just means there is the possibility for an oversight, and it's definitely illustrates how fight/design dependent we are (which, once again, isn't balance).


Black mage just isn't as fun as it could be, right now. Will it get better? I doubt it; you can tell that SE really likes their gimmicks this time around (couple that with these white knights).

I have a BLM & SMN @ 60. The flexibility of SMN far outweighs the minor DPS advantage of BLM.

The issue can be boiled down to:

• BLM is high risk, high reward (Enochian loss-> 30 sec penalty at worst and a huge DPS loss)
• SMN is low risk, high reward (worst case you recast 1 dot)

A BLM needs to know any fight really well to maximize their DPS, and their entire group has to plan around them being a giant turret for long periods of time.

A SMN doesn't require that level of knowledge. They can wing the fight and still pump out most of their DPS. Additionally they can do most of it while moving, and Res.

A BLM gets to edge out a SMN in DPS only in the best case scenario where they can turret the entire fight. The DPS increase itself is noticeable, but not large enough to compensate for the requirements it needs.

It doesn't take months of testing in raids to see the glaring disadvantages inherent in BLM. Hoping that SE will plan content to cater to BLM's movement issues doesn't address these issues.