How to Dragoon Per Second: A DPS Paradigm

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Originally Posted by PhalanxField

Hmm, something was weird with TT on mine earlier, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore, I have no idea what happened... Probably shouldn't do this and work at the same time.

Did you adjust your PH and CT potencies? Phleb duration went up, and I went ahead and removed 1 dot tick from CT since we're clipping it early every time (right?).

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Yup. Takes into consideration all of that.

And yeah, it's 1.9 CTs that are getting clipped (ish), as the DoT lands after the animation, which I've now adjusted in my model to 1.15s.

I've been keeping an eye on this discussion the last few days and it has me concerned, it sounds like the rotation has no room for errors or lag. Errors might not be an issue for me, I learn and memorize things easy, but lag may be.

Need input on this, and maybe if someone wants to test it since it will be a while before I can test it on DRG.

Regarding /chotbar ability swaping.

Keeping with the idea of Weapon skills on face buttons (square, X, circle, triangle)

HT > ID > Dis > CT

Upon using CT, slots for HT and ID are replaced with F+C (flank = flank) and Wheeling (rear = former rear)
Also, former slots for TT and VT are restored.

/micon "Chaos Thrust"
/ac "Chaos Thrust" <t>
/chotbar set "Fang and Claw" [hotbar#] [slot#]
/chotbar set "Wheeling Thrust [hotbar#] [slot#]
/chotbar set "True Thrust" [hotbar#] [slot#]
/chotbar set "Vorpal Thrust" [hotbar#] [slot#]

TT > VT > FT

Upon using FT, slots for TT and VT are replaced with F+C and Wheeling.
Also, former slots for HT and ID are restored.

/micon "Full Thrust"
/ac "Full Thrust" <t>
/chotbar set "Fang and Claw" [hotbar#] [slot#]
/chotbar set "Wheeling Thrust [hotbar#] [slot#]
/chotbar set "Heavy Thrust" [hotbar#] [slot#]
/chotbar set "Impulse Drive" [hotbar#] [slot#]

This solves the earlier problem of trying to set a macro in a macro, there only needs to be 2 macros instead of the 4 I originally thought of.

Sound feasible? Any input on action delay or other screwbally stuff if someone could test would be great :)

(I know I'm not mentioning Phleb, not worrying about it's position for this, can remain unchanged)

EDIT: OK I figured out the original problem, and realized 2 new ones.

1) Wouldn't be able to multi-dot mobs with IDC
2) Wouldn't be able to TTT TTT mobs where you don't need IDC

Only solutions I can think are swapping hotbars, to a main without macros and then back. Something like what Gardes has mentioned, swapping entire hotbars with macros. Or just really fast reaction times to hit either CT or FT in between your recast time to restore which set you need (ex, multidotting with IDC-4th, while 4th GCD is counting tap FT to restore HT/ID. you don't have to perform the action for the abilities to be changed, just tap it quick to restore. Same if you want to TTT TTT, just tap CT real quick between the GCD to restore them)

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

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How about (where (_) is the /chotbar change 1/2/3/4 macro)

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Set 1: H , I , D , (C)

Set 2: (P) , 4 , 4 , C

Set 3: P , T , T , (T)

Set 4: (H) , 4 , 4 , T

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That's 4 sets used up. For this I'm going at the order of circle, triangle, square, cross for columns. So a (C) macro only contains /chotbar change 2, which will land you on Set 2 where the actual non macro'd chaos thrust is. You have to at least double tap during the gcd queue window to use chaos thrust in the queue window. Same with (P), (T) and (H). You basically change into different sets and loop around while activating skills and shouldn't be suffering from /ac's queue penalty.

Keep in mind that I dont have DRG leveled yet (focusing on DRK) and can't really test its smoothness and various situation adaptibility (we still use heavy > phleb > IDC on some adds...right?). My current chotbar setup uses 3 sets and are able to swap between heavy and phleb at any time but I've tried it and adjusted it over many fights..

Yea, neither can I since leveling War for now lol

At the end of the day it would be easier to set 4th hits to L2/R2 combo and just get used to the change. "Keep it simple" comes to mind xD

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Originally Posted by Hekatrix

I've been keeping an eye on this discussion the last few days and it has me concerned, it sounds like the rotation has no room for errors or lag. Errors might not be an issue for me, I learn and memorize things easy, but lag may be.

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This also has me concerned. The requirement to double-weave is a big pet-peeve of mine. Since the release of the expansion I've seen a noticeable lag with oGCD abilities to the point where I'm struggling to get a single ability to go off sometimes. I don't like having to rely on a VPN just to connect to these Canadian servers that are forced to route using an outdated infrastructure. Using WTFast I skip 8(!!!) hops connecting from the UK, but I'm only using the free version and it has its own problems sometimes. I know Battleping and Pingzapper are cheaper services, but they're also just renting their servers from a third-party rather than owning outright which doesn't offer the same performance. EU Data centre can't come soon enough for me, but even then it'll take months to settle down.

I haven't reached 60 yet but in my time with both FnC and WT I've spent a lot of it with myself glued to a dummy just so I can retrain my muscle memory. What is the current experience with landing positionals from those with more experience? Bosses turning to cast an ability has always been a hatred for me in this game, and I've noticed that it tends to line up more now with trying to land our 4th, or at least it does in dungeons. Spastic mechanics does not a happy dragoon make.

When it comes to not being able to land the positionals at all (T11-like comes to mind for an example) hasn't SE just exacerbated the issues that the most recent Dragoon "fix" was implemented to alleviate? Especially with the 4th being a random proc, you can't even preempt. If a fight forces you in a certain position and RNG screws you over, that much potency loss is a big deal. It'll have the potency equivalency of chasing the boss around trying to land Heavy Thrust/Impulse Drive several times all over again. Along with the odd timings of LS now, it makes me wonder how much thought went into this change at all.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Yea, neither can I since leveling War for now lol

At the end of the day it would be easier to set 4th hits to L2/R2 combo and just get used to the change. "Keep it simple" comes to mind xD

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Well, I get kicks from making complicated setups that is simple to execute once you get it down. I just made one that involves five sets. It's a lot but I think this should let the user press the new (HIDC4 PTTT4) while being able to do any other variation since set 1 contains all the combo starter and heavy and phleb. You just need to do square > triangle > circle > tap R1 > square > triangle > circle for a double TTT chain.

http://puu.sh/iA0Id/d666772bb7.png

So does bl increase our crit damage since the changes made to crit, feels like not much has changed.

Nice, it seems you've accounted for pretty much all the GCDs. My only question, all other off-GCDs in the same spots on the rest of the empty hotbars? I would have a had time with that since I'm so used to where they are now lol

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Originally Posted by Gaiussenpai

So does bl increase our crit damage since the changes made to crit, feels like not much has changed.

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No. Internal Release, Battle Litany and Straight Shot, skills that buff a mistranslated stat called "Critical" - Which is your Critical Chance. They do not affect your Critical Hit Rating, which is the numerical value you see on your Character Panel. If they did affect this value, then they would boost your Critical Hit Damage.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Nice, it seems you've accounted for pretty much all the GCDs. My only question, all other off-GCDs in the same spots on the rest of the empty hotbars? I would have a had time with that since I'm so used to where they are now lol

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Yes, basically this is on your R2 (or L2 if you like). First you make set 1 complete with all the OGCDs on the dpad and the GCDs on the face buttons. Then you use /chotbar copy drg 1 drg 2/3/4/5. Then you place all the gcds and macros on 1-5. Then as you play, the ogcd buttons should all look the same as you press the face buttons and switch around sets. I have IR, B4B, Stun, and jump on them. The rest are on R2+L2 (surges, invigorate,dfd, etc).

But that's just how I set up mine. Trying to have all the single targets on one shoulder button and the double hold. The other side of the shoulder are all the same from set 1 - 5: aoe attacks and throws, etc.

Does the hotbar change macro have the problem of not queening your skills?

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Originally Posted by OmegaStrongtan

Does the hotbar change macro have the problem of not queening your skills?

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If the skill is being used in the macro, it will have a queuing issue. If there is a separate macro that only switches the macro palette, then no, but you are now introducing an extra action you have to perform essentially.

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

HT (BFB+BL) > ID (xpot) > Dis (IR+BoTD) > CT (PS+LSW) > 4th (Jump) > PH (SSD/DFD) > TT (SSD/DFD) > VT (LS+GK) > FT > 4th

i dont think casting the first GK early will do much for the rotation, so i think pairing it with LS works out well

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I'm starting to think that this is pretty much the perfect opener, Aiuri. It gives us maximum buff overlap by loading longer cooldowns earlier and shorter cooldowns later. It doesn't accomplish everything (for example, Life Surge + Full Thrust isn't buffed by your potion with this set-up)--but the more I play around with different possibilities, the more impossible it seems for us to "have it all."

The only real problem I have is the placement of Leg Sweep and Geirskogul. I'd rather have GK buffed by a potion than LegS, I think. Also--not an objection so much as a question--I'm wondering if it might be better to swap the order of BFB and BL right after HT, since that can potentially give us 9 BFB hits, reaching all the way to Wheeling Thrust/Fang & Claw. Is the animation speed really so superior when we go with BFB-BL rather than BL-BFB? Anyway, I'm thinking:

HT -> (BL+(BFB -> ID -> (Pot -> Dis -> (IR+BotD -> CT -> PS+GK -> 4th -> Jump -> Phleb -> DFD/SSD -> TT -> DFD/SSD -> VT) -> LegS+LS -> FT)) -> 4th)

Any thoughts/criticisms? I'd like to make a new video illustrating a flawless opener, as opposed to the crappy one I threw together for my original one.

yeah, the ogcd orders aren't actually ordered as they should be in that post. it should be

(BL+BFB), (BoTD+IR), then PS/LSW doesn't matter, and (LS+GK) is fine still since getting LS off cd earlier is good

i'll record a video of the opener; xpot actually does last for the fullthrust and geirskogul. the only iffy part is getting the 4th combo to benefit from litany and IR; it's a VERY tight timing at my skillspeed (2.39). i think at 2.37 or 2.38 it should be perfect though. if your latency isn't good and you clip gcd at all though, even the xpot on FT+GK will be iffy unless you have extra skillspeed

HT > BL+BFB > ID > DracoPot > DIS > IR+BoTD > CT > PS+LSweep > 4th > GK > Phleb > Jump > TT > SSD > Vorpal > LS > FT > DFD > 4th > so on so forth.

GK being placed there won't matter in a long fight, but suppose the boss makes a first jump right after your opener, or a mechanic disrupts it. I think it might be more beneficial to hold GK till the second 4th hitter on some occasions, though.

It's all about the timer. If you have under 21s on BotD after you use a 4th combo, you should always hold GK until the you're back up above 21s. This applies for all mechanics, or if you clip GCDs, missclick, etc.

Only exception are phase changes or if BotD is coming up again.

hmm, I agree that the pot should be used after Impulse Drive. obviously, the rotation you've been working with for oGCDs doesn't work if you just move everything back a step (you don't want to pop BotD after Impulse Drive!)

here's what I'm thinking for an opener without a pot:
HT -> IR + LSW -> ID -> BL + B4B -> DIS -> PS + BotD -> CT -> DFD -> 4TH -> Jump -> Phleb -> SSD -> TT -> GK -> VT -> LS -> FT

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

yeah, the ogcd orders aren't actually ordered as they should be in that post. it should be

(BL+BFB), (BoTD+IR), then PS/LSW doesn't matter, and (LS+GK) is fine still since getting LS off cd earlier is good

i'll record a video of the opener; xpot actually does last for the fullthrust and geirskogul. the only iffy part is getting the 4th combo to benefit from litany and IR; it's a VERY tight timing at my skillspeed (2.39). i think at 2.37 or 2.38 it should be perfect though. if your latency isn't good and you clip gcd at all though, even the xpot on FT+GK will be iffy unless you have extra skillspeed

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Oh, wow, that's great to hear. Definitely makes sense to burn Leg Sweep earlier, then, since Geirskogul timing is pretty immaterial. Should be:

HT -> (BL+(BFB -> ID -> (Pot -> Dis -> (IR+BotD -> CT -> PS+LegS -> 4th -> Jump -> Phleb -> DFD/SSD -> TT -> DFD/SSD -> VT -> GK+LS -> FT))) -> 4th)

Personally, I want to favor IR+BotD rather than BotD+IR, since the former gives us a fraction of a second more leeway for Blood of the Dragon's timer. Does BotD+IR give us IR for the 4th combo hit after FT or something?

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Originally Posted by bwa

hmm, I agree that the pot should be used after Impulse Drive. obviously, the rotation you've been working with for oGCDs doesn't work if you just move everything back a step (you don't want to pop BotD after Impulse Drive!)

here's what I'm thinking for an opener without a pot:
HT -> IR + LSW -> ID -> BL + B4B -> DIS -> PS + BotD -> CT -> DFD -> 4TH -> Jump -> Phleb -> SSD -> TT -> GK -> VT -> LS -> FT

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BFB + BL should always be used after HT. Most PPS out of your skills.

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Originally Posted by Thendiel

Personally, I want to favor IR+BotD rather than BotD+IR, since the former gives us a fraction of a second more leeway for Blood of the Dragon's timer. Does BotD+IR give us IR for the 4th combo hit after FT or something?

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Yah, but the timing is pretty tight. If you have Aiuri's SS, then it should work, given good latency. I'd rather go IR -> BotD due to EU poop-tier latency...

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Originally Posted by Nominous

Even with around 2.45 GCD I can do GK after the first 4th combo, and reach the second 4th just fine. The first fully buffed GK is nice, but I could see reasons to hold it, is all I was saying.

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Yah, it agree with you. It's just a safety measure - GK below 21s is risky. Don't you have problems with the 3rd GK however? Your BotD should run out around when you should be using your 3rd GK if I'm not mistaken, or am I wrong in assuming this?

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Originally Posted by Dervy

It's all about the timer. If you have under 21s on BotD after you use a 4th combo, you should always hold GK until the you're back up above 21s. This applies for all mechanics, or if you clip GCDs, missclick, etc.

Only exception are phase changes or if BotD is coming up again.

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Even with around 2.45 GCD I can do GK after the first 4th combo, and reach the second 4th just fine. The first fully buffed GK is nice, but I could see reasons to hold it, is all I was saying.

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Originally Posted by OmegaStrongtan

Does the hotbar change macro have the problem of not queening your skills?

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No, but as

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Originally Posted by HeavensSword

If the skill is being used in the macro, it will have a queuing issue. If there is a separate macro that only switches the macro palette, then no, but you are now introducing an extra action you have to perform essentially.

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pointed out, you have to press the same button at least twice to activate a skill (at least the ones that have a /chotbar change 1-5 macro. If you're a precision type of player that only presses a button to activate a skill once, you wont be able to use this style of setup. But if you're the mashing type of player like me, your thumb will not play any differently, you'll just switch sets around manually way less. For single targets you'll end up with 2 sets (1 is a double hold) and the R1 for resets.

drg burst with my (flawed) opener - http://a.loveisover.me/wbvvam.png

really fun w

anyway i was recording my opener and turns out i was mistaken (or just lagging and clipping gcd) about x-pot lasting long enough for FT in my opener (needs like like just 0.1-0.2s extra duration orz..) i tried and was unsuccessful at 2.39 sksp, so i think 2.36 would be enough to hit that full thrust. you definitely get the xpot's benefits on GK though. what you could do is swap xpot and then do (ir>botd), but i think it might create problems with geirskogul and botd refresh? will definitely need testing when i have time

as a consolation service, it works perfectly well if you get fey wind on pull! lol

Reached 60 this evening. Geirskogul management was easy to learn, and it's funnier than just keeping the buff up. Now all I need to do is get those damn positionals down. Without going into too much detail (I'm trying to limit spoilers on new instances), do the new EX primals screw positionals as much as common dungeon bosses/mobs?

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

do the new EX primals screw positionals as much as common dungeon bosses/mobs?

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haha oh god yes they do. there are mechanics where you literally can NOT hit positionals, and then there's tiny sized mobs with the tiniest hitboxes that make hitting the positionals seem like a sniper's job. for the other primal, it's not as difficult, but there's definitely a lot of deterrents to you getting your positional in the fight.

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

haha oh god yes they do. there are mechanics where you literally can NOT hit positionals, and then there's tiny sized mobs with the tiniest hitboxes that make hitting the positionals seem like a sniper's job. for the other primal, it's not as difficult, but there's definitely a lot of deterrents to you getting your positional in the fight.

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I suppose I'll have to stop screaming mentally each time I miss a positional if I want to survive this expansion, lol.
Before the expansion I used to pop buffs up as much as possible, did it change anything else now - like waiting for certain buffs to line up?

Every positional you miss is around 2.4 PPS loss, or 10DPS approximately, for that rotation cycle (which is every 2 BotDs). It's harsh. You just need to suck it up sadly.

Dervy, why did you have to change server? D:

I no longer have anyone to discuss with.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Yah, it agree with you. It's just a safety measure - GK below 21s is risky. Don't you have problems with the 3rd GK however? Your BotD should run out around when you should be using your 3rd GK if I'm not mistaken, or am I wrong in assuming this?

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Not entirely. If you use the GK on the first 4th, you can't use it on the second, as has been said here. The 3rd one is fine. After doing Fractal and the other 60 dungeon though... I'm getting less comfortable using GK at all, and just keeping up BoTD. Just like someone else said- in end-game content GK is probably going to be saved more than it's used, unless your BoTD timer is maxed out and it's cooldown is close to coming off. 12 seconds is good enough on bosses that are stationary, but lawd is it awful with these high-movement bosses.

yeah, using GK at a low BoTD (11-13s) duration is like playing with fire. very exciting and satisfying if you don't get burnt doing it

So does any one have suggestions for a rotation where I would use one ability between weaponskills? I tried the rotations suggested here, but literally battle litany took like 2 seconds to activate when I practiced some in Goblet. My latency is so terrible so I cannot do any multiple ability rotations... (WTB EU SERVERS)

Sad thing most of (dungeon)boss mechanics tend to make you refrain from using Geirskogul, because they often dash around the map, or disappear or other stuff.. you can't really rely on these things, let's see what happens when they upload Alexander xD, it's probably gonna be mannequin time again!

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

yeah, using GK at a low BoTD (11-13s) duration is like playing with fire. very exciting and satisfying if you don't get burnt doing it

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Very satisfying, haha.

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Originally Posted by Thendiel

Oh, wow, that's great to hear. Definitely makes sense to burn Leg Sweep earlier, then, since Geirskogul timing is pretty immaterial. Should be:

HT -> (BL+(BFB -> ID -> (Pot -> Dis -> (IR+BotD -> CT -> PS+GK -> 4th -> Jump -> Phleb -> DFD/SSD -> TT -> DFD/SSD -> VT -> GK+LS -> FT))) -> 4th)

Personally, I want to favor IR+BotD rather than BotD+IR, since the former gives us a fraction of a second more leeway for Blood of the Dragon's timer. Does BotD+IR give us IR for the 4th combo hit after FT or something?

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Thendiel, you forgot LegS from the rotation you stated. I presume this is what you wanted to formulate

HT -> (BL+(BFB -> ID -> (Pot -> Dis -> (IR+BotD -> CT -> PS+LegS -> 4th -> Jump -> Phleb -> DFD/SSD -> TT -> DFD/SSD -> VT -> GK+LS -> FT))) -> 4th)

Using GK or LS first would be dependent on if it's a single target or a group I presume? Since LS ensures critical damage for next weapon-skill for 10s. Damage dealt will be absorbed as HP, up to 10% of maximum HP.

If we use LS before GK, it can ensures critical damage for GK on a group of mobs (it be great if someone can clarify that with me). And if we use LS after GK (before FT), then we will be dealing a lot more on one target since FT has a potency of 360 as compared to GK with a potency of 200.

GK extends the duration of BotD, so popping earlier would also be the "safer choice". But I don't think it will be detrimental if it is used after, since BotD was also used after IR in the earlier parts of the rotation.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

Not entirely. If you use the GK on the first 4th, you can't use it on the second, as has been said here. The 3rd one is fine. After doing Fractal and the other 60 dungeon though... I'm getting less comfortable using GK at all, and just keeping up BoTD. Just like someone else said- in end-game content GK is probably going to be saved more than it's used, unless your BoTD timer is maxed out and it's cooldown is close to coming off. 12 seconds is good enough on bosses that are stationary, but lawd is it awful with these high-movement bosses.

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Odd. My model tells me you should run out of BoTD somewhere. I guess I need to make a few adjustments.

Personally, I'm not having any difficulties with GK usage in any of the Dungeons. The only boss that's remotely annoying is Minotaur in Fractal Continuum. I lose it there a lot, so I just blow GK when I know I'll lose it.

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Originally Posted by bj0rN

Using GK or LS first would be dependent on if it's a single target or a group I presume? Since LS ensures critical damage for next weapon-skill for 10s. Damage dealt will be absorbed as HP, up to 10% of maximum HP.

If we use LS before GK, it can ensures critical damage for GK on a group of mobs (it be great if someone can clarify that with me). And if we use LS after GK (before FT), then we will be dealing a lot more on one target since FT has a potency of 360 as compared to GK with a potency of 200.

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GK isnt a weaponskill so LS doesnt work with it.

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Originally Posted by bj0rN

Thendiel, you forgot LegS from the rotation you stated. I presume this is what you wanted to formulate

HT -> (BL+(BFB -> ID -> (Pot -> Dis -> (IR+BotD -> CT -> LegS+PS -> 4th -> Jump -> Phleb -> DFD/SSD -> TT -> DFD/SSD -> VT -> GK+LS -> FT))) -> 4th)

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Thank you for spotting that! You are correct. I meant to place Leg Sweep next to Power Surge. I have gone back and edited my previous post.

Hello,

Given that I hate placement on the sides, I intend to use on 4th skill only Wheeling Thrust.

Here is my being built rotation :

HT > BL+BFB > ID > IR > DIS > BoTD+PS > CT > Jump > 4th (WT) > GK > Phleb > LSweep > TT > SSD > VT > LS > FT > DFD

What do you thing about this ?

Thx

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Originally Posted by Thendiel

Thank you for spotting that! You are correct. I meant to place Leg Sweep next to Power Surge. I have gone back and edited my previous post.

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No problem! Now to actually test to see what's the minimum Skill Speed we would need to pull this off nicely and if the numbers pull of well. I wonder if we can finalize this and add to the main thread soon.

That aside, the Dragoons new rotation only works with a Global Cooldown of 2.4s and below to play efficiently. I've checked that I'm currently at 509 Skill Speed and my GCD is at 2.34 Sec. In the main post, it is stated that you need approximately 565 Skillspeed to make this rotation work. Maybe I'm getting it wrong? Perhaps there's a possibility that we can go lower than the stated Skill Speed needed.

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Originally Posted by Saruhada

Hello,

Given that I hate placement on the sides, I intend to use on 4th skill only Wheeling Thrust.

Here is my being built rotation :

HT > BL+BFB > ID > IR > DIS > BoTD+PS > CT > Jump > 4th (WT) > GK > Phleb > LSweep > TT > SSD > VT > LS > FT > DFD

What do you thing about this ?

Thx

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Impossible to only use one of the skills, as you always have a 50/50 chance of proccing either one of them. You can't choose what skill you want to use. It's at random. If you decide to only use one of them, you have a 50/50 chance of only getting WT, resulting in an overall DPS decrease and less GKs per minute.

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Originally Posted by bj0rN

In the main post, it is stated that you need approximately 565 Skillspeed to make this rotation work. Maybe I'm getting it wrong? Perhaps there's a possibility that we can go lower than the stated Skill Speed needed.

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Depends on the base level of your job.

Skillspeed at level 50 scales differently than it does at level 60. 0.00946 vs 0.0042 GCD reduction per 1 point of skillspeed gained. If I use my level 60 gear, level sync down to 50 due to low-level roulette, my GCD is 2.28, rather than 2.4 when I'm at level 60.

The same applies for Critical Hit Rating, which Viridiana is working on (Check SimFF thread) and I have a feeling the same applies to Determination.