The whole Summoner "has been re-worked" is sad

The problem is we haven't seen how the new abilities change the Summoner so it's impossible to make in argument about what needs fixing. Right now people are making an assumptions based on what little information they have and not coming up with reasonable solutions that can work within Heavensward. One suggestion based on Allagan Summoning is have a trait that temporarily transforms the player character into a Primal of their choosing and gaining the Primals skills. SE can also have the player temporarily transform into Bahamut while under Dreadwyrm Trance and gain his abilities.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The problem is we haven't seen how the new abilities change the Summoner so it's impossible to make in argument about what needs fixing...

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No, no, no. Just like with the NIN thread, counter-arguers are missing the point.

The issue many of us have with SMN is that it lacks emphasis on the summons themselves.

Dreadwyrm Trance is a pretty easy tell that they're not putting enough added emphasis (in our opinion) on the summons, but pushing more emphasis on the master's magical capabilities.

With NIN, it's the principle that they're applying positionals to a Job pitched as being that which wouldn't rely on positionals.

Again, super easy to glean without requiring add'l. details that they're taking these Jobs in directions we (those who argue on my side) dislike.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

We can argue/discuss/ask for tweaks, additions or whatever, but SMN is SE's to portray how they want in their game.

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Yeah, it's too bad Yoshi P himself disagrees with you.

http://i.imgur.com/FGmNY0A.jpg

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Originally Posted by thunderbreak

Yeah, it's too bad Yoshi P himself disagrees with you.

http://i.imgur.com/FGmNY0A.jpg

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Not really, that doesn't counter what I said. "Don't forget your roots. It's what the fans crave." Please justify how that statement means Yoshi disagrees with me.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Not really, that doesn't counter what I said. "Don't forget your roots. It's what the fans crave." Please justify how that statement means Yoshi disagrees with me.

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He means FFXIV SMN is nothing like past titles' SMN's... not even remotely, which' true; means, roots have been forgotten in his mind (many agree, tons of FF fans hate this rendition of SMN for that very reason).

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Originally Posted by Yuri_Hyuga

He means FFXIV SMN is nothing like past titles' SMN's... not even remotely, which' true.

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FF10 SMNs isn't like FFT SMNs. FF11 SMNS isn't like FF4 SMNs. FF11 NIN isn't like FF1 NIN. Fail to see how that slide that says "Don't forget your roots, It's what the fans crave" with regards to XIV, means that things in XIV need to be like what player A wants explicitly from FF10 or player B wants explicitly from FFT. The reality is that SE (Yoshi) has the say on what XIV SMNs do and are portrayed as.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

FF10 SMNs isn't like FFT SMNs. FF11 SMNS isn't like FF4 SMNs. FF11 NIN isn't like FF1 NIN. Fail to see how that slide that says "Don't forget your roots, It's what the fans crave" with regards to XIV, means that things in XIV need to be like what player A wants explicitly from FF10 or player B wants explicitly from FFT. The reality is that SE (Yoshi) has the say on what XIV SMNs do and are portrayed as.

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Overarching core/emphasis has always been on grandiose summons or at least decently-powered summonable creatures.

Egi's been a pewny fragment of a primal & the classes design much more centered on the Summoners' magical capabilities rather than commanding on summons is where the discrepancy lies.

All previous iterations of SMN in FF titles kept the core/spirit of the Job intact, this variant heavily dismantles it.

Plenty of ways SMN could easily be reworked to put more emphasis on the summons themselves, but our one glimpse into Heavensward demonstrates a further deviation from that ideal.

And if SMN's were like as they were in previous Final Fantasy games, they'd just be a Black Mage with flashier attacks and ONLY use the strongest summon.

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Originally Posted by Yuri_Hyuga

Dreadwyrm Trance is a pretty easy tell that they're not putting enough added emphasis (in our opinion) on the summons, but pushing more emphasis on the master's magical capabilities.

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To be honest, I'm fine with the Dreadwyrm Trance, because that seems more like the original Summoner Job to me. You summon Bahamut, he Ahk Morns bitches, then goes away. OK you're not summoning the full Bahamut, but that fits with the games lore. If that head is effectively Bahamut-Egi, I'd say it's more impressive than the current Egis (and I never really had a problem with them anyway). It's still putting emphasis on the summon, it just isn't a persistent summon, but until FFX Summoners never had persistent summons anyway.

I actually wish Summoner was more like that with the rest of the summons. Just forget the whole physical pet aspect and give me Inferno, Vortex, Tremor, Tidal, Judgement and Diamond stacks. Even add the Elemental Wheel back in in some form; Vortex stacks reduce Inferno stacks, Inferno stacks reduce Diamond stacks, Diamond stacks reduce Vortex stacks (XIV has more of two elemental triangles, for anyone wondering why this isn't the same as XIs/most other wheels). That way, rather than having eight stacks to manage (Aether, these six, and Dreadwyrm), you have half that as you can only build two of the elemental ones at the same time, trying to build both Vortex and Inferno at the same time will just waste Inferno, etc. Then just make Enkindle actually impressive by removing that Elemental Wheel aspect for a short duration, allowing you to build up all stacks at the same time and time using the skills in quick succession. Quite a few things they could do with that concept, and it kind of adds to the whole Tri theme they had going on with Tri-Disaster. Give it some skills to force a rotation (You're building Inferno stacks, use skill, suddenly they're Vortex stacks), make it so some of the Primal skills aren't damage based and things could be interesting. Everyone about to take lots of damage? Force yourself into Tremor stacks and provide some mitigation with Titan. Nothing too powerful of course, something more on the same level as DPS throwing out Mantra.

I should stay away from Summoner threads, they just end up making me think of multiple ways I'd prefer the Job...

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Originally Posted by Nestama

And if SMN's were like as they were in previous Final Fantasy games, they'd just be a Black Mage with flashier attacks and ONLY use the strongest summon.

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I doubt it would be that simple. Would it effectively just be like Black Mage? Perhaps, but they simply wouldn't balance it so you only spam the strongest summon. Every DPS in this game has a fairly strict rotation, Summoner would be no different if its summons were effectively just nukes. You wouldn't spam Aerial Burst back to back just the same way you don't spam Flare constantly on Black Mage.

I have been leveling Summoner and at level 40 I can say there is a lack of burst. Do not get me wrong, I love this job, so much so I decided to make it my main over Dragoon and for me that is saying a lot. I do not know what they have planned outside of what they showed us and Akh Morn looks cool to me, but I have an idea that could add burst but get the Egis involved. Thus, hopefully, making most happy.

The idea itself simply revolves around pet control commands Rouse, Spur, and Enkindle and their respective cool downs, player control, and situational awareness. In short it requires a trait or toggle skill. Let me break it down:

Spur: Pet's physical and magical damage is increased by 40%. Cool down: 2 minutes

Rouse: (For the sake of this we'll focus of damage gain) damage dealt increase 40%. Cool down: 1 minute 30 seconds

Enkindle: Commands Pet/Egi to use signature attack. Cool down: 5 minutes

The problem is not so much that the Summoner itself is totally incapable of burst as a whole, it is that it is incapable of doing so effectively. If, under ideal conditions, you got all buffs/DoTs up to do it you would still need to wait five more minutes to make it worth while again because of Enkindle's cool down. If we had a trait or toggle skill that would either allow the cool downs respectively to share the same as the lowest timer(Rouse), or for that matter two minutes altogether for the three of them. Then burst could be a far more viable thing for Summoner no matter Ifrit or Garuda. It's just a thought.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I actually wish Summoner was more like that with the rest of the summons.

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I have to agree. This should've been the original concept, except call it Summoner Stance. Build stacks to use a special summoning move. But atleast it feels like they're getting it right now.

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Originally Posted by Yuri_Hyuga

Overarching core/emphasis has always been on grandiose summons or at least decently-powered summonable creatures.

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Which made them black mages with artwork attached to their nukes instead of particle effects. The only real gameplay difference between a summoner and a black mage is that the summoner burns through MP faster for a lesser return.

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Egi's been a pewny fragment of a primal & the classes design much more centered on the Summoners' magical capabilities rather than commanding on summons is where the discrepancy lies.

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This was done for the sake of gameplay and mechanics. It's not as big a departure as some claims since this is in line with how Rydia, Garnet and Yuna related to summoning: each had something else they could do in combat aside from the summoning. Rydia could nuke and Yuna/Garnet could heal. Our SMN deals damage via DoTs on top of being able to summon. It follows the same paradigm as the most recognized summoners in the series.

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All previous iterations of SMN in FF titles kept the core/spirit of the Job intact, this variant heavily dismantles it.

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This is up for debate. Summoning is largely secondary unless you have storylines revolving around it (FFIX, FFX). Mechanically it's never been the strongest job ever because, as I said, in most FFs it's basically a black mage with artwork attached to their nukes. X, XI and XIV are outliers between the summon replacing the entire party (which won't fly in an MMORPG), the blood pact thing (which was stupidly clunky and slow), and egis as pets.

hmm... somehow i am getting a strange feeling about all of this... its like a cold shiver runs down my back...
Its not only limited to SMN, all jobs are getting "something"...

It looks like a first step towards personal limit attacks!
On SMN you clearly can see it, still not on all jobs its that clear...
However, we need more informations, currently we can just guess.

Is it just me or did it wound like what they are doing is keeping Summon 1,2,and 3 because of the roles they play but were going to add in different "skins" to the summons so you could have Summon 3 as Ramuh or Summon 1 as Shiva? i would have no problems with this as it prevents the summon bloat that would end with the community saying "Summon X summon or you are noob and booted".

So with the information that's just coming out now that the NDA on the France event is lifted...

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...twitch_stream/

There is some information here from people who got to play with summoner:

Ahk Morn is in fact: AoE, can be used every minute with dreadwyrm trance, and does around 2.7-3k dmg when it doesn't crit.

I'm waiting to see if we can get more details on some of the other abilities, but I wanted to put what I've found here so far. If anyone else finds anything let's start putting it out!

Also, he has an entire interview with Yoshi-P with details on the buffs to summoner specifically. Watch his twitch stream to get the details!

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Ahk Morn is in fact: AoE, can be used every minute with dreadwyrm trance, and does around 2.7-3k dmg when it doesn't crit.

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http://s23.postimg.org/zegg5ilhn/heavybreathing.jpg

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Mechanically it's never been the strongest job ever because, as I said, in most FFs it's basically a black mage with artwork attached to their nukes. X, XI and XIV are outliers between the summon replacing the entire party (which won't fly in an MMORPG), the blood pact thing (which was stupidly clunky and slow), and egis as pets.

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Wait wait... since when were summons ever WEAK? Okay, I'll give you Final Fantasy 12, but come on...

In most Final Fantasy games, summons are literally some of the strongest skills. Significantly more powerful than any single Black Mage nuke and significantly more utilitarian. Summons like Phoenix, which not only did considerably fire damage to your enemies but also healed and revived party members. Or Carbuncle which gave you Reflect and Regens. Summons like Ifrit and Shiva which bested any comparable fire or blizzard spell.

You can't possibly say that summons were weak with a straight face. They were not. In fact the only single instance I can see where a summon was truly 'weak' was in Final Fantasy Tactics. Their weakness wasn't their damage though, far from it, but the long cast times needed to summon. This made them less desirable since most opponents would simply move out of range.

Even in Final Fantasy XI the summons are not weak. In fact, the Summoner's raw strength is almost entirely placed in the hands of the summoned avatar, with skills like Predator Claws dealing thousands of damage and Astral Flow techniques which can either bake the area in lethal damage or render the party nigh invulnerable for a time.

Let me never hear another word about how summoners have always been 'weak'. Only the misinformed would come to that conclusion.

But really, if they gave Akh Morn to the egi instead of the player character themselves, the only improvement that would stem from that would be to make all the hard core summoner fan boys wet in the panties.

Obviously SE is doing their best to keep the classes balanced and aren't bloating one class with significantly more skills than another. Would all the whiners be content if instead of casting ruin you had your egi cast, I dunno ruin?

Is the big cringe fest really all about how your casting your skills and not the pets?

I seem to get that feeling. And it has zero impact on game play, it would just be unnecessary development time wasted.

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Ahk Morn is in fact: AoE, can be used every minute with dreadwyrm trance, and does around 2.7-3k dmg when it doesn't crit.

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Holy crap, that is amazing.
Anyway, as for everyone else, it seems like the Summoner rework has been somewhat confirmed.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

But really, if they gave Akh Morn to the egi instead of the player character themselves, the only improvement that would stem from that would be to make all the hard core summoner fan boys wet in the panties.

Obviously SE is doing their best to keep the classes balanced and aren't bloating one class with significantly more skills than another. Would all the whiners be content if instead of casting ruin you had your egi cast, I dunno ruin?

Is the big cringe fest really all about how your casting your skills and not the pets?

I seem to get that feeling. And it has zero impact on game play, it would just be unnecessary development time wasted.

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not really, trying to get your pet to do things is a huge pain in the butt. I'd rather have less skills on the pet and more on the summoner unless the devs gonna stop being lazy and make pet skills operate in between autoattacks. But a bahamut egi would have been so fitting and a perfect thing to give summoner. The enkindle move coulda been ahk morn and flare breath coulda been an aoe move. A cool divebomb animation could have also been a special move as well, kinda like a garuda knockback.

Since in 2.0 the main goal was tackling bahamut to save the world. Would have been nice to have his egi for 3.0 instead of this trance thing.

I am in the "we shoulda got at least one new egi" camp!!!

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

not really, trying to get your pet to do things is a huge pain in the butt. I'd rather have less skills on the pet and more on the summoner unless the devs gonna stop being lazy and make pet skills operate in between autoattacks. But a bahamut egi would have been so fitting and a perfect thing to give summoner. The enkindle move coulda been ahk morn and flare breath coulda been an aoe move. A cool divebomb animation could have also been a special move as well, kinda like a garuda knockback.

Since in 2.0 the main goal was tackling bahamut to save the world. Would have been nice to have his egi for 3.0 instead of this trance thing.

I am in the "we shoulda got at least one new egi" camp!!!

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I like the trance thing a bit more personally. It's more a I "become" bahamut more so than carry around this rather pathetic looking crystaline blob thing that is him. Also, from a fucntional standpoint... considering how the egis respond to commands... ugh. can't tell you how many times I have to mash contaigion, aerial slash, or enkindle or have to macro a steady in just to get them to listen. I really think this way is better.

Plus, we don't know what the LB3 is! We might very well summon Bahamut for our LB3... I'm praying for this.

All that side, now that we have some more details on trance, the damage Ahk-Morn does alone is absolutely amazing.

Edit:

New stuff being said on that twitch stream:

Tri-Bind - ((What is currently Tri-Disaster in ARR))
Tri-Disaster - Consumes an Aetherflow to apply Bio, Bio II, and Miasma on target.
Dreadwyrm Trance - Applies stacks of Bahamut Aether Which can be spent on various abilities while Aetherflow is on cooldown.
Deathflare - Giant laser that hits an AoE for massive damage (Like Akh Morn). Consumes 3 stacks of Bahamut Aether.
Painflare - Uses Bahamut Aether. Consumes less than Deathflare, possibly for more damage? More info is needed.
DoTs hit harder based on spell Speed.

here's the source for this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...view?sle=true#
Twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/pcgamesn

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

DoTs hit harder based on spell Speed.

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Incoming Quicktongue Materia price hikes.

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Originally Posted by Dree-Elle

Incoming Quicktongue Materia price hikes.

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http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-Excellent.gif

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Originally Posted by Dree-Elle

Incoming Quicktongue Materia price hikes.

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Also: Pets hit harder now based on spellspeed too. LOL

Doh, double post

And people called me a fool for stocking up on Spellspeed.

Who's the fool now? > : D

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Ahk Morn is in fact: AoE, can be used every minute with dreadwyrm trance, and does around 2.7-3k dmg when it doesn't crit.

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Originally Posted by Limecat

http://s23.postimg.org/zegg5ilhn/heavybreathing.jpg

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http://i.imgur.com/dSqadIX.gif

Sweet Baby JESUS.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Wait wait... since when were summons ever WEAK? Okay, I'll give you Final Fantasy 12, but come on...

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You've misread what I said.

What I said was:

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Mechanically it's never been the strongest job ever because, as I said, in most FFs it's basically a black mage with artwork attached to their nukes.

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In other words, SMN never had the deepest or most complex mechanics ever. It was not a mechanically-sound job from a design perspective. Ergo, there's not much in terms of a foundation from console FFs since they were basically black magic nukes with artwork attached to them. Notice that I mentioned X, XI and XIV as the outliers for this reason. Summoning in those games was more than just "summon -> spell effect -> vanish".

A great idea is one from the game itself where an NPC became a Primal that would be something worth checking out for future updates something that would be very unique and cool and new to the series if a PC could change into a primal. From what I gathered when playing the storyline summoners basically became masters at primal knowledge and with the whole Shiva scene could make for a very interesting game to see a player invoke the primal itself temporarily with a set of abilities in that given primal. Something for Yoshida to think about because it would make for a very unique SMN.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Notice that I mentioned X, XI and XIV as the outliers for this reason. Summoning in those games was more than just "summon -> spell effect -> vanish".

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Also lore wise X, IV, and IX had deeper meaning to being a SMN. (FFVIII to a degree as the GFs were their versions of it and had some serious side effects with long term use. 13 I'll add in as the summons were more personalized which I liked about them.) All the other FFs did have summons but like you said, they were just a long cutscene and a nuke. Most of these characters that could summon specialized in another form of combat art/spells and summons were just a very good method of AoE magic + it was pretty (even including the more interesting versions of summoners; Yuna + Eiko being WHMs, and Rydia having BLM and basic WHM).

I feel 11 tried that approach to have Summoner be soley about the Summoning aspect in a way the original FFs were and from what I've read, the Summons were nice to look at but ultimately the job as a whole was lacking. 14's SMN I feel wants to be more connected with their summons by making it a permanent form on the field and in the recent upgrades trying to connect SMN to the world/lore more so than, beat a primal get an egi. As some has mentioned the whole trance ordeal can go more so in the direction of the original idea of a summon(egi pops out, you wield its power, does nuke, leaves). I am hoping that the final product is now someone has said, that the egi stays hovering over you while in the trance (or some form of effect lingering would be awesome to give it that menacing feel).

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

A great idea is one from the game itself where an NPC became a Primal that would be something worth checking out for future updates something that would be very unique and cool and new to the series if a PC could change into a primal.

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Even if for a short time period, or a one shot move this would be awesome. I'd see it as the Summoner becoming a humanoid version of said Primal instead of just being a mini version of it personally but actually transforming into something sounds kinda cool and goes hand in hand with the lore so far in 14.

How to fix Summoner: IMO

1. Serperate it from Scholar and make it a classless job.
2. Get rid of the egis. No pets at all.
3. Either implement an Envoke system where you Envoke Garuda, Ifrit, Titan, w/e. That changes what your spells do. For example. Envoking Garuda makes your DoT's last longer. Ifrit will make your Ruin spells hit harder. Titan makes you take less damage. etc etc.

Or, implement spells such as Hell Fire that works like Enkindle, just not with that 5 min cool down. That you can use in between festers and such. It could even have half the casting time of the current summon spell's casting time. For example. Apply Bio, Miasma, and Bio 2. Fester, Hell Fire, Fester, Garuda's big move, Fester, Titan's big move.

Both these options could work with the new dreadwyrm system.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

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Besides massive changes to a class that's been in a game for a while now suddenly changing a key piece to it being a bad idea and a good way to kill a class completely, I don't think that's a proper system. It's a lot of stance dancing basically while making some things like a "Titan Envoke" being useless nearly all the time, and it's just replacing the "Why no new egis" with "Why no form changes". It's neat, but why not just add it to Egis as a way to make them more interesting? Reduce summon time, add a passive buff for the summoner to receive something for each Egi, maybe add a "Egi Burst" move which sacrifices your current summon for some sort of themed special move?

I hoped at 2.0 we can keep ACH pet system and in add to carbuncle we could summon the real deal (somethink like the 3.0 bahamut, but with ALL primals)...
To think that they would change a "familiar" into a summon was something i could not imagine...
I thought we will upgrade ACH into a summoner, but we just gotten only one more "familiar"...

That was a cheap move from SE and nothing more!

I actually like the dev explination for not creating more egi. Lets look at ffxi how often did you use diabolos, sure ifrit was great in sea for killing fish, ramuh was fine for shock strike, shiva had sleepga, leviathan... Had ummmm, thw list goes on each summin was there and had like one use save garuda cuz p claws was amazing. So the devs said lets not add a lot of summons that nobody is going to use or make smn a jack of all trades the have to rebalance the whole job everytime they release a new egi cuz thats what would happen we have our ranged, melee, tank the only thing we are missing is possibly a support egi but even then i would rather then give us a way to just summon like we are going to be with bahamut, single ability be cool to use diamond dust just by itself but time will tell just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

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Because I feel it needs to be reworked from the ground up. Envoking titan would be great during big aoe attacks in dungeons and raids. Currently only one pet is useful. Garuda. Ifrit and Titan are, for the most part, useless unless you're soloing. Ifrit's Stun has a long cool down timer. His shield is horrid as you're using Titan to solo for the most part. His AoE move will only hit 1 or 2 mobs in a large group cause they are surrounding the tank and not Ifrit himself. Unless you take the time to place Ifrit in the middle of the mobs but who does that? If Garuda didn't have contagion, people would probably just summon Ifrit, let him auto attack, and never worry about the pets abilities.

The new Dreadwyrm Stance, not sure of the actual name, is enoking Bahamut to give you some additional abilities or change how some of your current ones work. I think this should be how summoner should have worked since the beginning. Blm, Pld, War (in HW), Drk, and Mnk have to dance between stances. I'm sure a smn could do it.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

The new Dreadwyrm Stance, not sure of the actual name, is enoking Bahamut to give you some additional abilities or change how some of your current ones work. I think this should be how summoner should have worked since the beginning. Blm, Pld, War (in HW), Drk, and Mnk have to dance between stances. I'm sure a smn could do it.

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If thats the case SE should give us a "SMN stance" not a "nuker stance" ...

Something like:
EGI Stance: "Reduce the DMG you deal 25% and increase ur egi dmg 50%/crit change 15%- during this stance you trafer 10% dmg you deal as health for ur egi. Also each time your egi does a crit hit u get a stack of xxxxx, when reach 7 enkindle CD resets"

Burst Stance: "During this stance your Egi health reduce 3% per second and becomes imposble to heal - Increase SMN dmg by 20%, crit chance 10% and fester power to 150 per DoT- If your egi die during this stance SMN need to wait 10sec before summon a new one"