We have finally come full circle, SMN's need help!

I'll be happy with some piety included on ct3 gear or even weapon

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Originally Posted by Sunako

We may get new gear that fit our class better like 130 crit/det rings from odin ... Also if we get new lvl 120 pvp items

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Sadly a ring isn't going to fix all problems and pvp items should never be a solution since you need a very high level rank in pvp, you shouldn't have to do pvp contents to get "better" gears for pve in a pve game (This is probably why pvp gears Ilv are always inferior to at least 10-20 Ilv than current "best" stuffs).
And as for the new world of darkness stuffs... I'm personally not wanting to trade my Ilv 130 stuffs for Ilv120 gears, the INT and VIT loose would hurt too much I think but that's just my opinion.

So...

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Originally Posted by Raubahn

"They dont give a shit"

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Most likely that, the thread is going to be 1 month old this week and still no reply from anyone.

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Originally Posted by Atomnium

..

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Maybe you do not want trade left side gear cause it is good 2 have 6100 - 6300 health in t13 but for the right side parts are fine like if you can trade 15 - 20~ det/crit for for 2 int. At the begin of 2.4 I used 110 pvp boots that give you 18 crit 18 det and neck that have crit/det build too cause those was better than my old pve gear and I get 0 spell speed from the gear at first. So I already get benefit from pvp to pve. Btw, you have 580 accuracy yourself, are you sure it is enough?

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Btw, you have 580 accuracy yourself, are you sure it is enough?

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I'm well aware that I only need 535 but I didn't choose to have that much accuracy at start, drops decided for me! and back in the past when we firstly entered fcob I didn't had enough accuracy to start with :p and then the Ironwork book solved it... but then additional drops and poetics came to ruin it ^^.
I'm currently finishing a DET/CRIT Apocalypse, which will drop my accuracy to the correct amount.

Now that I finished to justify my stuffs and my accuracy... -.-; We can come back to the original discuss :)

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Originally Posted by Atomnium

I'm currently finishing a DET/CRIT Apocalypse, which will drop my accuracy to the correct amount.

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Any SMN who never finished the relic chain or hasn't finished it yet will be front-loaded on accuracy because of that terrible Augmented Ironworks book (assuming it's the 130 one; HA Grimoire is better than the 120 one lol). You're either overloaded on accuracy or you pick up a bunch of spellspeed gear you'll never keep trying to dump it... Pick your poison.

So ludicrously stupid that for SMN and BRD this go-around gear itemization is such fail. At least the Dreadwyrm Bow is a BRD's wet dream, while SMN are still stuck with lolspellspeed on their 135 weapon.

SE should adjust the Summoner by reducing the cool down on Enkindle to 30s and increase pet damage by 20%.

The problem to buff SMN is to buff SCH as well, SCH is currently the best healer, capable of pulling 200+ dps on t13 while healing, and SMN is currently the worst dps because of the mana issues, so things that buff aetherflow or traits will be hard to balance, SE need to solve SMN mp issues by reducing the CD of contagion by a lot and making fester hit harder, so SMNs can Energy Drain more often without losing dps

[QUOTE=Sighearth;2690202]SE need to solve SMN mp issues by reducing the CD of contagion./QUOTE]

Please no, I don't want to funneled into the floating chicken wing only mentality again. People are just starting to embrace the flying ketchup.

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

Please no, I don't want to funneled into the floating chicken wing only mentality again. People are just starting to embrace the flying ketchup.

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But what if you splatter the flying ketchup all over the floating chicken wing?! Delicious goodness!!

......

.... now that just sounded like a horrible hentai doujin waiting to happen >.>;

Daily bump! Some communications from the community staff would be much welcome <3
I'm personally not going to give up till we get a small answer ^.^

I'm not sure if it's just me being pessimistic about fixes or if I'm just bored, but I haven't been doing much on summoner recently. My raid's BLM main has been offline for almost two months with real life issues so I've been running BLM instead of smn and having a lot of fun with that. Right now I'm actually considering working on the relic since I have too much accuracy and not enough crit between the poetry gear and the soldiery weapon. If I did a Novus I could try for a crit/det build.

add an off hand with piety maybe?

Hotfixes in 2 days fingers cross for smn ....which I doubt but nevertheless lol

we get a major update in 12 days. if it doesn't include any "fixes" to smn, there is definitely a need for response (unless the issue is non existent among the Japanese community, which i hardly doubt). besides that it might be a bit tough to respond considering there are at least 10 active topics regarding smn going and every now and then a new one pops on top...

To Lavieh :

I was thinking, maybe... Since the original post is from reddit, maybe you should edit your first post here and include the full version from reddit ? Maybe that's the reason why the community staff is completely ignoring this thread since like 1 month now.
I don't know really :/ I just don't want to believe that they don't give a shit, it would be kind of sad.

I don't think we'll see any changes to smn till 3.0, they would have said something already. I'm hoping they remove the class system all together and revamp smn job ATM sch shares too many of smn skills separateing the two would allow sch and smn to be there own thing.

With the amount of "Change SMN" threads (partly due to a specific individual), I'd think part of the devs consider the playerbase to be crying wolf everytime a new thread pops up, this thread being no exception.

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

With the amount of "Change SMN" threads (partly due to a specific individual), I'd think part of the devs consider the playerbase to be crying wolf everytime a new thread pops up, this thread being no exception.

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Well, just check the forum :p the community staff is actually reading a lot our threads and always try to answer, even if the question sound odd or frivolous.
But for some reasons, when it come to SMN, they just act as mute people, it's like that since months :( why?

There is actually 3 possibilities of why we are not getting any answer from community staff or DEV :
1) They can't give us any kind of answer without half spoiling a "maybe" major / impressive change and revamp for smn in 3.0.
2) An honest answer about being not able to touch at smn because of the delicate balance between smn and sch since they both share arcanist class (It would mean to leave the boat for many of us before it sink).
3) They are absolutely not aware at smn current issues... Because they don't play it when testing their new contents, blm is a caster too! good enough to know for gears and contents.

The answer 3) would explain why there is absolutely no balance on shared casting stuffs when it come to spell speed and accuracy since 2.4, would explain also the obvious mp issues for fcob.
Let's be realistic, they kept adding spell speed on best books from coil since scob, ironwork book is a good laugh too xD to me it's enough of a proof that they don't play smn at all.

Or maybe they do not take serious anymore these SMN treads because there was loads of those even before 2.4. Loads of complains how summoner should be like ffxi summoner and how summoner should be pet job and not dot job. Loads of complains how SCH and SMN should split from each others. SMN was probably one of the strongest dps class in t9 before and we had book of spades with bis stats and ppl still complain. Other classes have bad stats their ironwork weapon too like bard 51 skill speed, the most useless stat for them. Or why WHM have spell speed both allagan and dreadwyrm weapon? It is bis stat for whm? No, it is not, its worst stat for whm. Itemization should not be the reason why the class is bad. I think SMN is pretty hard balance because of the downtime and movements how much different battles have. In some fights SMN is either really good or bad depends on fight and how much downtime different battles have. I think the mp is not the huge issue since you can save your mp with minimal dps loss. Even if you would have unlimited mana your damage would not increase so much. You would get little more auto attacks from spamming ruin2 all of the time and few more festers. If you need 10x energy drain over fester in 10 min fight that only lower your overall dps around 10 dps. Auto attacks would probably increase your dps 5 - 10.

well, let's hope the new CT dungeon will have SMN oriented gear, i120 full Det+Crit over SS anytime. If so then this would help SMN a little..

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Originally Posted by Minorinz

well, let's hope the new CT dungeon will have SMN oriented gear, i120 full Det+Crit over SS anytime. If so then this would help SMN a little..

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The problem with 120 parts is that you will lose vitality. In turn 13 it is good 2 have all possible vitality if you want 6100 - 6300 hp and if you dumb your gear with tank ring, that is even bigger dps loss than using ilvl 130 spell speed chest/belt instead 120 det/crit ones.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

The problem with 120 parts is that you will lose vitality. In turn 13 it is good 2 have all possible vitality if you want 6100 - 6300 hp and if you dumb your gear with tank ring, that is even bigger dps loss than using ilvl 130 spell speed chest/belt instead 120 det/crit ones.

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it's not a solution and yes vit is important but it shouldn't be fatal unless terribad healers in your party. The i120 gear doesn't really have that much vit drop either.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

The problem with 120 parts is that you will lose vitality. In turn 13 it is good 2 have all possible vitality if you want 6100 - 6300 hp and if you dumb your gear with tank ring, that is even bigger dps loss than using ilvl 130 spell speed chest/belt instead 120 det/crit ones.

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T13 is beatable in almost full i110. Full i120 is more than enough HP.

Why are you guys so worried about MP, like, come on...

I clear T10-T13 as Summoner, every week. I am top DPS on every turn, every week, except for T13 which a Monk beats me on (as they should). Not to mention, I still have to wear a couple pieces simply for the vitality on this turn.

Why are you trying to say that we need buffs? My gear isn't even that good. Item level 122, no Dreadwyrm book, and my other raid members are much better geared. Yet, you still insist that Summoner needs buffs?

I'm very confused. The whole forum is making this out like Summoner is just dead, unplayable, have to switch jobs in coil because they can't handle it. Yet, I am doing just fine. Pulled 463 DPS on T13 last week. That certainly doesn't seem bad. No, I don't have any piety on my gear. No, you shouldn't be using piety, not even on your relic weapon.

Oh well, I guess. If you want to somehow convince SE we need buffs for no reason, go ahead. I'll just be here, playing Summoner, having fun with the job.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

T13 is beatable in almost full i110. Full i120 is more than enough HP.

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I have left side full 120 but 130 hat and boots + 125 weapon and I still use tank ring for some extra hp my summoner T13 make our healers job little easier. Without tanking ring i would have 6077 hp with raid buff + black hq risotto. If something is possible do with minimal requirement, that does not mean you should do it in that way.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

If something is possible do with minimal requirement, that does not mean you should do it in that way.

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Granted, but saying that better gear than anyone had when it was first beaten isn't good enough gear just doesn't make much sense.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

I clear T10-T13 as Summoner, every week. I am top DPS on every turn, every week, except for T13 which a Monk beats me on (as they should). Not to mention, I still have to wear a couple pieces simply for the vitality on this turn.

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If you're less geared and top as SMN then your other DPS aren't at the same skill level as you. Melee DPS should be way ahead in 10-12, 13 less so due to Earth Shakers and all the opportunities for multi-dots.

Perhaps your BRD is only doing Foes and Ballad and leaving the melees with no TP, I dunno.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

No, you shouldn't be using piety, not even on your relic weapon..

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Should I use spell speed my relic then if I do not wanna sink 10m + gil for the weapon that you are eventually gonna change for the Dreadwyrm book? Second choice would be accuracy, but hey, I can replace that accuracy with spell speed gear pieces so result would be same.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Should I use spell speed my relic then if I do not wanna sink 10m + gil for the weapon that you are eventually gonna change for the Dreadwyrm book? Second choice would be accuracy, but hey, I can replace that accuracy with spell speed gear pieces so result would be same.

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It depends on what content you're doing and how your gear is set up. More accuracy on your weapon easily allows you to adjust your other pieces and get more crit/det elsewhere, so it ends up being the same as taking your weapon to crit/det IV in many scenarios. I personally keep a gear set for every turn and finetune for minimum accuracy, and there are many scenarios where if I had just a few more accuracy points from somewhere (weapon!) I would be able to use other pieces of gear that would increase my DPS.

It can vary, but, I would say the accuracy is good if you're consistently running T9+. Otherwise, the accuracy is useless, and you should just dump it in spell speed. You can use the BIS solver on http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/ to easily finetune to a minimum accuracy if you adjust the weights to the current updated values, and in other situations as needed, check out the spreadsheet.

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If you're less geared and top as SMN then your other DPS aren't at the same skill level as you.

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Either way, if this truly is the case, it proves SMN can perform just fine in coil. I certainly do not believe SMN is the best DPS, and I don't believe that I shouldn't be out DPS'd by Monks, Dragoons, or whatever else, but I'm holding my own just fine, and doing quite well at that. It fits well in all the turns, the worst one of the four being T11 due to the large extended periods of DPS. However, the add phase is a good phase for SMN, so it's not all bad.

What is the complaint here? Why are people not liking/not playing SMN again?

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Perhaps your BRD is only doing Foes and Ballad and leaving the melees with no TP, I dunno.

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Some runs I don't have BRD, but when we do, he uses Foe and Paeon as needed. I also usually run with a BLM.

Fcoil is doable as SMN but often times I think myself "This part would be 100x easier as blm". Just the MP part is annoying, having to rely on bard playing Ballad "for me", when I know as BLM he could be playing Foe's instead. Battle ress on paper looks nice, but as there are these mp issues, its not really ideal and SCH has supervirus as well, BLM would have eye for an eye, plus Apoc + Manawall + Manaward.

People complain because they saw DRG complain threads and buffs followed, they could do same for SMN in 2.5, we'll see. I've had thought of going BLM in 2.5 if they dont do anything to SMN, but still dont like the idea, since been SMN since open beta.

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Fcoil is doable as SMN but often times I think myself "This part would be 100x easier as blm". Just the MP part is annoying, having to rely on bard playing Ballad "for me", when I know as BLM he could be playing Foe's instead. Battle ress on paper looks nice, but as there are these mp issues, its not really ideal and SCH has supervirus as well, BLM would have eye for an eye, plus Apoc + Manawall + Manaward.

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BLM may be easier, I dunno. I enjoy SMN, so I play SMN. I do good DPS, so it works. And NO never make your Bard play ballad for you. No, no, no.

Battle res is a fun toy, but you shouldn't ever need to use it.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

BLM may be easier, I dunno. I enjoy SMN, so I play SMN. I do good DPS, so it works. And NO never make your Bard play ballad for you. No, no, no.

Battle res is a fun toy, but you shouldn't ever need to use it.

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Thats the reason why I play SMN still as well. Just wish pets werent that derp and Mp wasnt such an issue, but what can you do.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

blarg

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I really love how you just trashed the whole point of this thread without even sharing detailed informations or arguing about the dozen of replies, numbers and reasons why people are actually complaining xD.
Here is the typical example of babysat smn by a very good static. I'm totally envious, I won't lie :p and you are probably a good smn too but you, good sir, just came here to spit your contempt over people in this thread ! And I'm myself very arrogant close to smelly minded most of the time O.O; But you won the game there.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

Some runs I don't have BRD, but when we do, he uses Foe and Paeon as needed. I also usually run with a BLM.

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Which turns on you don't have a BRD? "Usually" :x Do you always play with a BLM mate or not? BLM for t13 can be a serious bonus to say the least.

On a side note, I won't complain about my dps as smn because there is no need to :) but I feel a bit weird that you never ever encountered any issues with your mps during fcob !? What is your secret ? Do you use mp potions over x-pot (would be lolz).

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Or maybe they do not take serious anymore these SMN treads because there was loads of those even before 2.4. Loads of complains how summoner should be like ffxi summoner and how summoner should be pet job and not dot job. Loads of complains how SCH and SMN should split from each others. SMN was probably one of the strongest dps class in t9 before and we had book of spades with bis stats and ppl still complain.

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It may be a thing but I hardly doubt that the community staff and devs are that dumb when it come to an objective opinion about their creations, look at this thread :p many feedbacks from players with a lot of constructive replies for almost 80 likes on OP (It's a lot for an English thread).

To me, they just gave up on testing things with SMN and mainly because they created a "monster" that is able to handle way more stuffs than other jobs.

When you look at past nerfs and emergency fixes, it's almost always because the arcanist/smn (played by us) broke something or made their new contents not working as intended :
- Remember Ramuh extreme? Solo tanking it as smn for a week with titan-egi, best experience in my ffxiv life.
- More recently, turn 12 and blackfires before the nerf : people were able to crazy improve their dps by using overpowered banes from debuffed blackfires during p1 and so... only getting 4 bennus with 110 gears.

There is also a small flaw in Shiva Hard / Ex modes, 4 adds and Shiva, our bane from Shiva only touch 3 of them :3. I'm pretty sure to not be the only one frustrated by this xD.
On a side note, playing double sch for fcob can be a dangerous and tricky choice because of all heavy magical aoe damages you will eat without whm base protect.

If you add those things above to poor itemization we have and mp limits on the most hardcore contents ingame, it seems logical to assume that they don't design their contents while having the arcanist(mostly smn) factor in mind.

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I really love how you just trashed the whole point of this thread without even sharing detailed informations or arguing about the dozen of replies, numbers and reasons why people are actually complaining xD.
Here is the typical example of babysat smn by a very good static. I'm totally envious, I won't lie and you are probably a good smn too but you, good sir, just came here to spit your contempt over people in this thread ! And I'm myself very arrogant close to smelly minded most of the time O.O; But you won the game there.

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I am trying to understand why people are saying SMN is bad. People are saying "omg I had to swtich to MNK for final coil we just suck so hard" but it's just not true. The three main points complained about in the opening post are mana management, accuracy, and itemization.

Yes, we need more accuracy than BLM, who cares. Adjust your gear.

Yes, our itemization is kinda poor this patch, but we can still do just fine on DPS and work with what we've got. It won't always be that way, and my DPS is still just fine.

Yes, our MP can be a bit painful on certain fights, but Summoner has the power to control their mana flow and adjust based on how much they need and how much DPS they want to push out. You can manage and get a minimum number of energy drains. It's not like your rotation just stops; yes, you CAN energy drain in the case that you run out of mana, and while it's a DPS loss, it's also a penalty for being too greedy with your mana. In the majority of fights you can get away with not using energy drain. Even if you do energy drain, it's not the end of the world, and it can be a worthwhile tradeoff for being able to DoT cleave. You should be able to balance your MP and have a good idea of what's worth casting, what's not worth casting, and how much DPS you can squeeze out. This is part of the fun of Summoner, optimizing DPS for every encounter and mana usage.

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Which turns on you don't have a BRD? "Usually" :x Do you always play with a BLM mate or not? BLM for t13 can be a serious bonus to say the least.

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Some weeks we bring a BRD for all of them, some weeks we don't bring a BRD for any of them. I've gone both ways, and I've always had a BLM with us. Why would having a BLM boost a SMN's DPS? You might say they Foe more often I guess? But that's not true, because there are times when melee need TP, and there are times when they don't (Foe time).

In the end, I am just baffled why this topic exists. SMN does just fine in all content currently available, with some minor points on a couple fights (T8, T11), but all jobs have something like that.

I haven't used my SMN since I ran Sastasha Hard and we couldn't even pass the DPS check on the second boss with a WAR, a NIN, and a WHM. I had i110 and i120 gear and I still had the worst output of the group. We quit the roulette, I started a Bard and I haven't switched to use my SMN for anything since.

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I haven't used my SMN since I ran Sastasha Hard and we couldn't even pass the DPS check on the second boss with a WAR, a NIN, and a WHM. I had i110 and i120 gear and I still had the worst output of the group. We quit the roulette, I started a Bard and I haven't switched to use my SMN for anything since.

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So instead of trying to learn how to get better you just gave up? You just automatically assume "it's because SMN is a bad job?"

Does this topic truly exist because people can't figure out how to play SMN properly and thus just assume it's terrible and ask for buffs? I mean, no offense, but come on, that's just lame.

Assumption: That I don't know how to play SMN "properly".

I've used SMN since ARR was released, and this wasn't just some kind of "well, it was awful once, so I'm done." type of scenarios. No, this was after a long series of events where, patch after patch, I watched my favorite class get passed over and nerfed over and over again.

This was the proverbial "straw", as they say.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

Yes, we need more accuracy than BLM, who cares. Adjust your gear.

Yes, our itemization is kinda poor this patch, but we can still do just fine on DPS and work with what we've got. It won't always be that way, and my DPS is still just fine.

Yes, our MP can be a bit painful on certain fights

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:o Hold on a second, basically you are actually agreeing on people complains BUT it is something you actually enjoy and so, everyone else have to shut their voices?
No offence but not everyone are masochists and while I respect your tastes when it come to the "pleasure" point of view, it is not the case for everyone you know.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

yes, you CAN energy drain in the case that you run out of mana, and while it's a DPS loss, it's also a penalty for being too greedy with your mana.

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So, there again, using energy drain over fester is a "deserved punishment" for you even though the dps loss is kind of unfair when you are directly in competition for tight dps check fights :/
Where you see being greedy with mana, I just see DPS optimization to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

Why would having a BLM boost a SMN's DPS? You might say they Foe more often I guess?.

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It wouldn't :P Think again! I was more likely talking in a general way, having a BLM for adds phase will make your life as smn more "easier" but again it's a matter of subjective point of view and it dramatically depend of different party setups etc.
As an example let's try to imagine yourself a long long time back in the past with turn 4, as smn, alone as caster (so no blm) with a setup like brd/drg/smn/mnk and I70-I80 stuffs ^.^ Not saying it's impossible, just more challenging.

I still enjoy SMN til this day, but I really want SE to buff some of their abilities especially those that isn't useful at at like Tri-disaster for one. For the mana issues, the only 2 things I can think of that could make it easier for the job in FCoB for example if they increase the Aetherflow % from 20 to either 30 or 40 or buff energy drain potency from 150 to 300. Im still thinking on how to buff SMN cause I haven't heard them even trying to make it feel some relief to players.

The only problem about SMN is that it's by far the hardest job to play and 95% playing this game are horrendously bad, thus everybody complaining about SMN. Get some Piety to your relic, use Pineapple juice...and bam...mana problems are no longer an issue, but no, better spend 10 million gil in 30 useless points of determination/crit that will boost your dmg by an astonishing...1%, while your BRD loses 20% of it because they have to sing ballad for you.

No wonder SE doesn't want parsers in this game, it would only reflect the incompetence of 95% of the player database.