WHY ARE YOU PLAYING A BARD IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SING?!

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Originally Posted by Yoninxi

So why not sing and add more utility to the party if bards have one of the easiest rotations and can move freely?

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All you have to do really is sing Requiem one time if you have a lot of casters.
Again, their songs are situational.
With a solid PT, you don't need to do anything else but DPS...and if you don't have casters, you really don't need to pop a single song.
I'm just disappointed the Bard class was nothing like I'd thought it'll be. I find it a bit boring honestly, because I'm wanting to actually SING more.
I use Swiftsong between mobs because I'm dying to play my dang harp thing lol.

They need better songs...also sucks that y'know SE gave everyone a boost for TP/MP and BLM's never EVER run out. Like really lol.
Why not have songs that boost up Melee DPS too...or raise Maximum HP/MP/TP.
Or use Swiftsong in battle to increase movement speed like I posted a couple posts ago.

Edit: Also in the opening movie in the game. A bard jumps out and shields the WoL from something...I mean give us that or something.

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Originally Posted by Yoninxi

So why not sing and add more utility to the party if bards have one of the easiest rotations and can move freely?

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Because I'm busy keeping up those rotations and out dpsing the rest of the crappy pug dps and contributing to faster kills. I'll play for req of course and ballad and peon's whenn I can't attack the boss (during daybreak when boss is stoned, after last snake dies in t5 waiting for twin to land, megaflare in t9) but If you need peon's or ballad while I'm focusing on my own dps✋ you're going to have to.... Ask *GASP*

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Well, paeon and ballad are crutches in most situations. A good party only needs foe (T8 excluded). That's the problem with labeling bard as support. Aside from foe, it's only support when somebody screws up. Which means if nobody screws up then no support is needed. Bard is a back up support for when things get sticky. If a healer continually needs ballad then either they're bad or other people are bad. Playing ballad frequently is encouraging/enabling people to continue being bad.

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You can say very similar things about Provoke, Flare, Medica II, and many other abilities. There are still times when using them will speed up the fight more than not using them.

Imagine a blm in a dungeon saying "I don't use Flare because it enables the other dps to play poorly."

You should generally open with foe requiem. The start of the battle is the most opportune time because it's when 1) everybody blows their cds and 2) gives plenty of time for your mp to recover in case you're needed for something later on.

But for Ifrit HM, I prefer to save MP for foe during nails
Titan HM, for heart
Garuda HM, for sisters

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Originally Posted by GalaxyGirl

Because I'm busy keeping up those rotations and out dpsing the rest of the crappy pug dps and contributing to faster kills. I'll play for req of course and whenn I can't attack the boss (during daybreak when boss is stoned, during after last snake dies in t5 waiting for twin, after megaflare in t9) but If you need peon's or ballad you're going to have to.... Ask *GASP*

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How hard is it to glance at MP while you're doing your *gasp* 6 button rotation. Or think "hmmm there's a lot of AoE damage going on here,or he's been raising a lot, I'll cast ballad to help the heals out!" Instead of "I'll keep dpsing so we can kill It faster!"

Well im just gonna say that 80% of the time I get a ballad as a WHM I dont need it, and the bard is lowering his dps unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

You can say very similar things about Provoke, Flare, Medica II, and many other abilities. There are still times when using them will speed up the fight more than not using them.

Imagine a blm in a dungeon saying "I don't use Flare because it enables the other dps to play poorly."

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That analogy isn't so great. Unless you're saying dealing damage is the same as support.

Medica 2 is mandatory because there's unavoidable damage. The game isn't designed for just being medica sufficient.

Provoke is mandatory because there's tank swaps

Flare is an attack. Attacking isn't support.

Mage's Ballad is NEVER mandatory. It's only required when something goes wrong. This is what makes it support. Specifically, back up support.

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Originally Posted by GalaxyGirl

As a dps, consider it lucky you even get a song from us when in a pug. Songs are a benefit, not a luxury that you will always have, and as a dps job they can choose to play a song or not over being a support.

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Alright then, so when I tank, consider it lucky you even get a defensive cooldown from me in a pug. I'm going to hold agro and that's that. I'll just do the bare minimum. Anything else, and that's considered extra. Making my healer's job easier and being a better group player? Screw that, how dare other people expect me to use the skills that the game gives me?

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

You can say very similar things about Provoke, Flare, Medica II, and many other abilities.

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this is completely incorrect. none of those have a negative effect on the user.

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Originally Posted by Yoninxi

How hard is it to glance at MP while you're doing your *gasp* 6 button rotation.

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another person that doesn't know what Shroud of Saints or Aetherflow is.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Bard's damage isn't that much worse and often times, better, because to do better, you have to be a really good player.

An average caster/melee isn't going to outdps a good bard. But a good caster/melee could.

I'm almost always top dps in trial roulettes as a bard

I'm not even the best bard around. There are bards at the same ilevel as me that can do 10-20 more dps.

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Trial roulettes typically have parties with 1st-timers in them, so that's nothing to brag about. A good BRD will never out dps a MNK, BLM, or DRG of the same skill level in a full-party raid for the full duration of the fight, ever, so get over that real quick. Shouldn't it be appreciated that we are saying we need you to sing? You're playing an integral part of the party with those songs. Healers not getting songs=no more heals=dead, Melee DPS running out of TP (will happen on T8, guaranteed)=enrage from not killing in time=dead.

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Originally Posted by Odett

Alright then, so when I tank, consider it lucky you even get a defensive cooldown from me in a pug. I'm going to hold agro and that's that. I'll just do the bare minimum. Anything else, and that's considered extra. Making my healer's job easier and being a better group player? Screw that, how dare other people expect me to use the skills that the game gives me?

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A tank's job is not only to hold Aggro but to mitigate damage, if you didn't know this, then this must be your first mmo, let me welcome you and teach you something else, dps and support are two different things, and tanking has alway been mitigation/tanking lol, tank literally is a strong defense, you're not really doing that if you're just spamming hate combos lol

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

this is completely incorrect. none of those have a negative effect on the user.



another person that doesn't know what Shroud of Saints or Aetherflow is.

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Well to be fair, SoS is crap in comparison to Aetherflow.
You get more MP than SoS and you have Energy Drain to add on some MP.
That's why Ballad is mainly WHM friendly.

It is very simple. If you are in a 4 man dungeon and you have a caster in party you use Foe, if you have a healer that doesn't suck and uses cleric stance, you use Foe. In almost any fight you use Foe at the start as your casters are in their raging strikes rotations, this can be different due to a push phase when your casters may hold RS at the beginning, just make sure to have MP ready for this. In any fight that matters your group will have worked out when best to use your songs

There does appear to be more bad bards about than other classes. "I won't use foe and lose my dps" didn't read tooltip bards the most common. I consider the fact that bard is probably the easiest job to play, especially when playing as an archer with all that manoeuvrability, allowing even the slowest person to avoid things they couldn't on other classes. The duty finder 1failkick thing puts worse players under more pressure so they flock to Bard.

Please for the sanity of the community use your songs.

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Originally Posted by Yoninxi

How hard is it to glance at MP while you're doing your *gasp* 6 button rotation. Or think "hmmm there's a lot of AoE damage going on here,or he's been raising a lot, I'll cast ballad to help the heals out!" Instead of "I'll keep dpsing so we can kill It faster!"

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Id like to know how much damage you do as a bard while being such a delicate considerate person, probably crap. I'm glancing at constant dots ticking, procs for blood letter and straight shot, cooldowns, Etc, I said its easy, i didn't say you could take a nap

It's easy in the sense to keep high damage, but not very easy to detour your attention to something that above person who's spamming one move (cure) to ask for a ballad, I could so that with one finger lol

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Originally Posted by Yoninxi

How hard is it to glance at MP while you're doing your *gasp* 6 button rotation. Or think "hmmm there's a lot of AoE damage going on here,or he's been raising a lot, I'll cast ballad to help the heals out!" Instead of "I'll keep dpsing so we can kill It faster!"

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Keep track of your enmity, keep track of your surroundings, keep track of the boss attack order, keep track of what % the boss is at to know when a phase is about to change, keep track of your dots to make sure they don't fall off, keep track of your cds to make sure you're never wasting them, keep track of your straight shot and bloodletter procs, keep track of your HP to healing wind, keep track of your TP and invigorate uses so you don't become TP starved.

It's a lot to keep track of. I don't always have time to check the healers MP. In difficult fights, I'm too busy avoiding attacks and trying to stay alive to worry about how much MP the healers have. I fully believe it's a healer's responsibility to let us know when they need ballad. It is then our responsibility to play ballad when they desperately need it.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

another person that doesn't know what Shroud of Saints or Aetherflow is.

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Maybe they aren't using the skills because they weren't asked to.
Hey if your going to require them to ask to use your skills, it's only fair to ask them to use theirs.

Do you want your ears to bleed??? I can't sing.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

That analogy isn't so great. Unless you're saying dealing damage is the same as support.

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Dealing more damage = run goes faster
Providing useful support = run goes faster

If you are refusing to do something that will speed up the run then yes, it's the same thing.

If the spell would be pointless in the situation that's one thing, but to simply say "nope, it's a crutch, learn to live without it cause I dps only" makes you a waste of a party spot.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Dealing more damage = run goes faster
Providing useful support = run goes faster

If you are refusing to do something that will speed up the run then yes, it's the same thing.

If the spell would be pointless in the situation that's one thing, but to simply say "nope, it's a crutch, learn to live without it cause I dps only" makes you a waste of a party spot.

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Runs only go faster with foe. And nobody is saying foe isn't useful.

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Originally Posted by GalaxyGirl

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If you're a paladin, for example, you're mitigating damage already:

Shield -> Block.
Weapon -> Parry.
Heavy armor -> More reduction.
Shield Oath -> More reduction.

If you're pugging, which I assume he means the roulettes and the kind, you really don't need to pop cds if you're well geared. It makes the healing a lot easier if I do, but I only want to spank monsters with my sword, to keep emnity, not to waste time clicking a buff. How dare they do give me buffs that benefits me and the healer! This is sarcasm, btw.

Anything you can do to speed up a run or you know... do some teamwork, is more than welcome.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

I fully believe it's a healer's responsibility to let us know when they need ballad. It is then our responsibility to play ballad when they desperately need it.

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Hmm well. Even though I said it doesn't hurt to ask for a song...only because they aren't paying attention...but this is different...
If you know they're struggling and you know you have something
at your disposal to help out, then help.
Even though I think Bards are in a really meh spot because I wanna better support than a DPS. You guys are really REALLY needed end-game, things get tough. And yea, you do have more a bit responsibilities now.
Your time to shine here. Us healers some times won't have time to ask, I realize that now. I only have time, if I am doing well, and the other healer is down, and when things get so out of hand, I burned my Aetherflow and stuff
I'm trying to heal everyone as much as I can sooo... But if you do see someone in a tight spot, you should really go ahead and sing. I just have a habit of asking for song just in-case they miss it.
For Ballad: You and WHM's are suppose to be real best friends. :)

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Originally Posted by Bushido_Brown

Trial roulettes typically have parties with 1st-timers in them, so that's nothing to brag about. A good BRD will never out dps a MNK, BLM, or DRG of the same skill level in a full-party raid for the full duration of the fight, ever, so get over that real quick. Shouldn't it be appreciated that we are saying we need you to sing? You're playing an integral part of the party with those songs. Healers not getting songs=no more heals=dead, Melee DPS running out of TP (will happen on T8, guaranteed)=enrage from not killing in time=dead.

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Most trial roulettes I come across have people fully geared in solidery/myth with atma or animus. It isn't their first time.

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Originally Posted by GalaxyGirl

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(that was sarcasm) I was trying to get you to see how ridiculous it sounds to say what you said. Too many people in this thread are too rigid. "I'm DPS so I won't support." "You're a healer, so stop DPSing". Just stop for a second and realize that the game gives you skills for a reason. As a BRD, you have skills that can help your group, so you should use them when necessary. Saying (this is not directly stated at you) "I chose the bow class, not the harp class so I'm not going to sing" is just plain ignorant because the game gives you those skills. To make their importance even bigger, the BRD job quests are what reward such skills.

If you're a healer, you have DPS skills. If you're just standing there because you have smart DPS and a tank who can mitigate, it's good to DPS. If you're a tank, you have mitigation skills to help your healer, use them (something you say is required for tanks to do, and I very much agree, yet not many tanks can correctly cycle between them or even bother to pop one of their 8+ cooldowns, and god forbid you ask a tank to mitigate in a pug). You're a DPS, you also have mitigation skills and self-recovery skills. Use them. Manawall/ward, Bloodbath, Second Wind etc. are there for a reason.

You're a BRD, and have skills that can help the group recover should the situation arise. Imagine a healer is low on MP from raising people, one of them being the other healer. They're too busy trying to heal the tank, healing potential dumb dps, party-wide forced damage, and also trying to resurrect the other healer. Unless they're really fast typers, I doubt that they're going to have the time to request a Ballad, so you don't do so because nobody asked. Hell, it doesn't even have to be this extreme. Brayflox NM is a perfect example of this if one DPS is bad and tank takes forever to move the boss out of the poison. Is it your fault that the group wiped? Of course not. If people die to mechanics, it is 100% their fault. Could you have made the healer's job less stressful by being aware of the situation and using Ballad? Yes. You can do good DPS and be aware of your surroundings. I don't see why it has to be exclusively one or the other. Tunnel vision is bad.

If a MNK, arguably the hardest DPS class to play, can use Mantra effectively and at an opportune moment, you can play a Ballad.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

can't see TP.

Shroud of Saints/Aetherflow, i don't know when you've used it or not. i play healer, just because the MP bar is low doesn't mean they need or want Ballad.

can't keep Foe up all the time, i can use Battle Voice when you pop Raging Strikes if you tell me to.

why is communicating so hard for people? who is the lazy one?

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

another person that doesn't know what Shroud of Saints or Aetherflow is.

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The only valid point that you have is for TP since you can't see other people's TP bar and minus T8, there shouldn't be a fight where people are TP starved.

For the rest though, there is no excuse. For example, a healer that died isn't isn't going to have much in terms of MP even with Aetherflow/Shroud of Saints, even less if it's on CD when they get raised. No one at this point should have to tell you to sing, it should be a given yet it seems to pass over the head of most bards.

And for Requiem, it's common knowledge that its best use is at the start of encounters when DPS uses their cooldown/pots and so on or at key points during encounters( Ifrit's nails, Titan's Heart, Chirada and Suparna).

Stop trying to justify laziness and learn to play the job appropriately.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

i expect most good SMNs to have used Swiftcast to improve their DPS. Raises goes to whoever has Swiftcast up next or a healer that can get away with hardcasting it without letting someone else die.

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Except for their initial Shadowflare, a lot of summoners in their respective statics are expected to keep Swiftcast up it for an emergency raise.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Keep track of your enmity, keep track of your surroundings, keep track of the boss attack order, keep track of what % the boss is at to know when a phase is about to change, keep track of your dots to make sure they don't fall off, keep track of your cds to make sure you're never wasting them, keep track of your straight shot and bloodletter procs, keep track of your HP to healing wind, keep track of your TP and invigorate uses so you don't become TP starved.

It's a lot to keep track of. I don't always have time to check the healers MP. In difficult fights, I'm too busy avoiding attacks and trying to stay alive to worry about how much MP the healers have. I fully believe it's a healer's responsibility to let us know when they need ballad. It is then our responsibility to play ballad when they desperately need it.

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I'm sorry but no. Absolutely not. As a career healer in end game statics, I can't let this one slide. The experience you are describing is something all DPSs deal with. As a healer with my own list of jobs which include keeping you alive, I am NOT I say NOT going to stop dodging and healing *YOU* because I have to stop all movement and type "mp plz" which you may or may not see because of your "oh so long list of chores." I am busy keeping you alive so you might as well be busy helping me do that.

Which is worse? A slight lag in damage to the target for a few seconds, or you (and others) dead or near death? ...Exactly

As a Bard main since launch. I cringe when I see other Bards not playing songs when they can. In 24 man runs, I rarely see Foe up, if ever. The song has ZERO negative impact to DPS, yet its not up near 100% of the time is just bad.

Songs are literally our ONLY real value add to the group (maybe the whole attack on the move, but the dps upside is marginal). Healers have to watch for aggro, dodge stuff, and WATCH your HP so you don't die. The least we can do is make sure they have enough MP to keep us alive, NOT THAT HARD. Just glance at it once in a while, pop mana song when WHM has less than 1.5K MP. Bust out Foe whenever there's a BLM or SMN. Or for 4 man, pop mana when BLM and WHM are spamming AoE. Their combined AOE dmg is much greater than our crappy TP intensive AoE anyway.

If you're a bard, and you haven't played songs in the last few dungeons you've ran. You are absolute crap PERIOD

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Originally Posted by Cyrus-Wallace

If you're a paladin, for example, you're mitigating damage already:

Shield -> Block.
Weapon -> Parry.
Heavy armor -> More reduction.
Shield Oath -> More reduction.

If you're pugging, which I assume he means the roulettes and the kind, you really don't need to pop cds if you're well geared. It makes the healing a lot easier if I do, but I only want to spank monsters with my sword, to keep emnity, not to waste time clicking a buff. How dare they do give me buffs that benefits me and the healer! This is sarcasm, btw.

Anything you can do to speed up a run or you know... do some teamwork, is more than welcome.

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My OP was towards paeon's and ballad, I will gladly play foe requiem, as for somethig that hinders my dps while I'm already doing more dps than the other 3 combined, is a big no.

Jobs are given roles, tanking in mmo's has and always be tanking everything and mitigation, you might think it is there just to help but it's apart of it's main role, healing as always been about healing and keeping everyone alive, maintaining that until the win. Dps has and always been to do damage and maintain it. I know it's sarcasm but I want to clarify..

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Originally Posted by Darki

I'm sorry but no. Absolutely not. As a career healer in end game statics, I can't let this one slide. The experience you are describing is something all DPSs deal with. As a healer with my own list of jobs which include keeping you alive, I am NOT I say NOT going to stop dodging and healing *YOU* because I have to stop all movement and type "mp plz" which you may or may not see because of your "oh so long list of chores." I am busy keeping you alive so you might as well be busy helping me do that.

Which is worse? A slight lag in damage to the target for a few seconds, or you (and others) dead or near death? ...Exactly

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My main is heals, I've healed and solo healed 90 percent of endgame, healing is a joke quit making a big deal out of it

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Originally Posted by GalaxyGirl

My OP was towards paeon's and ballad, I will gladly play foe requiem, as for somethig that hinders my dps while I'm already doing more dps than the other 3 combined, is a big no.

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What is a "big no" is any truth to this statement.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Runs only go faster with foe. And nobody is saying foe isn't useful.

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80% of bards don't even play Foe, that's the point of this thread.

On top of that, a 15 second burst of ballad/paeon (you don't have to leave it on til you run out of mp) can speed up a run. Plus it doesn't always lower your damage. Boss uses reflect, goes invincible, temporarily vanishes from arena, between pulls, etc. When there aren't any of those, you can use it after your dots were just applied, and you have no cd's up.

That little extra that helps your tank hold hate, your dps do more damage, your healer sneak in more damage, that will speed up runs.

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Originally Posted by Drako

Maybe they aren't using the skills because they weren't asked to.
Hey if your going to require them to ask to use your skills, it's only fair to ask them to use theirs.

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when either of those has a -20% on healing, you can use that argument.

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Originally Posted by GalaxyGirl

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That's debatable, because you sometimes have to sacrifice your precious DPS to save others or the whole situation. Having top DPS in a run is pointless if your lack of support causes a wipe. For example, the healer running out of MP, even if he derped it with his MP, they have you to fix that mistake or try to help him.

If the DPS pulls a monster, they have ME to fix that mistake and pull the monster back to me. It's all about teamwork. I, as a BLM, had to stop my DPS to cast Eye for an Eye or Virus if I need to. Heck! I even had to "physick" if the healer dies! I've got stoneskin on my PLD, and I had to spam it on the warrior because the healer died or he ran out of MP. We have utilities and the DPS, even if it's important, it's only part of your role. Being DPS doesn't mean that you have to deal the most damage, but if you see that your class includes some utilities, which are intended for some teamwork, even if you sacrifice some DPS (that means balance), use them.

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Originally Posted by Alcobrum

What is a "big no" is any truth to this statement.

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Yeah I'll remember that next time I do twice as much damage as your crap smn :(

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Originally Posted by GalaxyGirl

My OP was towards paeon's and ballad, I will gladly play foe requiem, as for somethig that hinders my dps while I'm already doing more dps than the other 3 combined, is a big no.

Jobs are given roles, tanking in mmo's has and always be tanking everything and mitigation, you might think it is there just to help but it's apart of it's main role, healing as always been about healing and keeping everyone alive, maintaining that until the win. Dps has and always been to do damage and maintain it.

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A DPS's job being to maintain damage is correct. However, your forgetting what a bard is. A while back (like 5 big updates ago) SE nerfed the bard's damage output in an attempt to get bards to feel more like a utility job rather then a pure damage job. Heck, even a bard's limit break isn't a damage dealing one. The game only has 3 "roles" to label jobs with. It sure as heck isn't a tank or a healer. SE tried (poorly) to make bard more obvious as a support job.

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Originally Posted by Cyrus-Wallace

That's debatable, because you sometimes have to sacrifice your precious DPS to save others or the whole situation. Having top DPS in a run is pointless if your lack of support causes a wipe. For example, the healer running out of MP, even if he derped it with his MP, they have you to fix that mistake or try to help him.

If the DPS pulls a monster, they have ME to fix that mistake and pull the monster back to me. It's all about teamwork. I, as a BLM, had to stop my DPS to cast Eye for an Eye or Virus if I need to. Heck! I even had to "physick" if the healer dies! I've got stoneskin on my PLD, and I had to spam it on the warrior because the healer died or he ran out of MP. We have utilities and the DPS, even if it's important, it's only part of your role. Being DPS doesn't mean that you have to deal the most damage, but if you see that your class includes some utilities, which are intended for some teamwork, even if you sacrifice some DPS (that means balance), use them.

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Yeah but thing is, I'm saying I'm not obligated to play songs, not that I won't, the OP on this thread is trying to say that people shouldn't bard if they don't sing songs but that just isn't true when they're playing a dps role.

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Originally Posted by GalaxyGirl

Yeah I'll remember that next time I do twice as much damage as your crap smn :(

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You could have potentially prevented a wipe and/or made the healer's job less stressful at a clutch moment, but you had the most DPS! Class utility? Fexibility? Getting the win? Screw those, right? Everyone's dead, but you had the most DPS! Congratulations, that really made the difference!

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Originally Posted by GalaxyGirl

Yeah I'll remember that next time I do twice as much damage as your crap smn :(

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You know though, back on topic, these crap summoners can do more damage if you use FOE, so use it, it's your job.

I don't care if a bard never sings.

I do, however, find it extremely annoying when I end up with one of those Legolas bards in my party who think they can solo the entire place. Go ahead and play in your own vacuum then, Legolas.

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Originally Posted by GalaxyGirl

Yeah but thing is, I'm saying I'm not obligated to play songs, not that I won't, the OP on this thread is trying to say that people shouldn't bard if they don't sing songs but that just isn't true when they're playing a dps role.

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The OP as well mentioned very specific situations where bards should use their songs but they don't. I guess it would be better if the dev team introduces a true archer/ranger class, so you don't have to be tied to this burden. Sadly, as a bard, you'll be asked and obligated to do that, because it's in your utility list and it helps the party. Of course you'll have people requesting you to play songs on pointless situations, I'm aware that it's not all unicorns and rainbows in DF/PF.

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Originally Posted by Darki

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but right now there isn't any support roles yet in duty finder? Right? Until they fix that for bard it'll always be a dps, and I pride myself as being a good damage dealing bard due to my dps, of course I play songs but when it's needed, not when it's magically expected, I'll play foes whenever I can but when you expect a ballad make a macro and ask for it, focusing on dps is a job and it's not soemthing I expect people to understand who don't try to maximize their roles to its absolute potential, as in dps, sorry to sound smart ass