with this mindset the future looks dim

Yeah definitely, I guess in that sense I can completely agree with OP. OP, with that mindset, the future does look dim for you. Thankfully at least in my experience your type is a minority.

I think the underlying problem is that many of these fights are built with a specific strategy in mind for the players to figure out and tackle. If you think about it, other than "the way it's always done", does anyone think that there should be more than one or two methods to take down a boss rather than reading patterns and positioning in obvious gaps in a boss's uberpowerful attack?

I dunno, I just feel like the difficulty of the endgame might be more artificial in that every difficult part of it is engineered so intricately that there is only one, maybe two ways of being able to take down a boss, when realistically speaking, there should be several. This is actually where I have some respect for Titan's fight, because the concept of a shrinking arena naturally increases the challenge and difficulty of the fight because you have less room to move around as the fight continues to progress.

However, when it comes to Twintania, there is a very specific formula you HAVE to follow in order to succeed, which is a significant roadblock for many players, myself included, who can play their roles well, but feel like they have to take a seminar before every single new piece of endgame content. I mean, I do it because I want to get ahead, but that doesn't mean I like doing it, and honestly, if I wanted to study, I'd pick up my college textbooks and go at it, because Computer Engineering is far more interesting to learn than how many centimeters away from the other tank I have to be to not get flamed, yelled at, kicked, and blacklisted feeling like absolute crap.

This kind of boss design is the only thing stopping me from playing the hardcore endgame content, forever resigning me to the casual caste of players. Which is not a bad place to be by any means, but for a completionist like myself, it does feel quite restrictive.

I would have to disagree with you. Before going on any end game content, at least read up or watch a video is a form of respect the other 7 player in the team.

No one like wiping every 10% of the boss fight just because someone gotten lazy and thought they could pass the fight blank minded.

Not asking people to be pros and execute it perfectly but i had grouped with people that have absolutely no clue at all what they are suppose to do, where they are suppose to stand, etc.

Watching a video or reading a guide would help ALOT of unnecessary wipes.

I just still read some of the posts on here with disbelief and this will be my last post on the subject as nothing I say or anyone else says is going to make a difference to how people use df.

The whole I want to experience things myself without watching a video etc - why don't you actually make friends in game and find people that want the same thing? This is a progression based mmo with a linear line of progression with mechanic based fights 90+% of people just want to clear things (OP and people that defend him have pretty much been outnumbered in this thread and the numbers would only be bigger in game)

Also remember we are not here to babysit players this is the modern age of mmo's and this is the community that is pretty much going to be in most mmo's. Don't try and say anything otherwise if you come in unprepared and knowing nothing you are a burden.

I mean also the argument goes both ways.

Why should you be entitled to cause 90 minutes of suffering? because you pay your subscription? because you want to play your way? guess what so do a lot of other people why should your entitlement be higher than the majority of other people playing the game.

However one thing always stays the same - Everyone wants to complete content and why don't you do yourself a favour and actually look stuff up before you go marching in with the wrong attitude for it and then complain later on?

I always have patience for people that have a positive attitude and at least done some research and then saying there new but watched the videos but I am not sure about phase x do we do this? However I do not have patience for the selfish minority

Old fast is a condition of scrambling peoples character with repetitive content, perhaps in DF where the value of veteran players time has degenerated into a simple "we did it first" definition this can be called true, I call it BS.

Carried is another concept that has been also redefined to simply mean we did it first, this means I guess that unless a new player memorizes every you-tube video they need not install at all, not sure how this helps SE maintain XIV.

In FCs calling members collectively a "group" and then demanding any first run participant be "you-tube savvy" is nothing more than a copout.

These self-worshiping you-tube addict we got here first experts are what make up the toxic ooze people call MMO communities these days.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Umm. . . SE has made at least as many console racing games as Blizzard has, and has certainly released more console games in general than Blizzard has. Why are you using this to bash Blizzard, again?

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*sighs*....which was my original point!!

There's a very good Chinese proverb:

Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand

[QUOTE=Yurihyuga;2129911]I just still read some of the posts on here with disbelief

Why should you be entitled to cause 90 minutes of suffering? because you pay your subscription? because you want to play your way? (you)

Your definition of "entitled" is wrong, I see this all the time in society now, people who do not actually know the definition of entitlement, entitled, and so on, by your application of the word, someone could argue that people who ask new players to be you-tube literate also feel entitled.

However one thing always stays the same - Everyone wants to complete content and why don't you do yourself a favour and actually look stuff up before you go marching in with the wrong attitude for it and then complain later on? (you)

By this logic a ps3 player who has no pc or internet surf access is just screwed, which of course means they now have to also buy a pc etc., how long before you decide anyone without a masters degree in IT just not bother installing the game.

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Originally Posted by Lamentations

By this logic a ps3 player who has no pc or internet surf access is just screwed, which of course means they now have to also buy a pc etc., how long before you decide anyone without a masters degree in IT just not bother installing the game.

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ps3 has youtube app. i know this, you know this, so does everyone else. argument invalid

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Originally Posted by Lamentations

By this logic a ps3 player who has no pc or internet surf access is just screwed, which of course means they now have to also buy a pc etc., how long before you decide anyone without a masters degree in IT just not bother installing the game.

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this argument is just totally wrong. If you play MMOs on a PS3, you have internet surf access.

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Originally Posted by Lamentations

By this logic a ps3 player who has no pc or internet surf access is just screwed, which of course means they now have to also buy a pc etc., how long before you decide anyone without a masters degree in IT just not bother installing the game.

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There is a will, there is away bro.

Your argument really sounds like, i don't give a damn what other 7 people are thinking and if i want to try failing my way through 90 min, everyone should be there to entertain me as well.

You might have all the time of the day to explore the fight, others in the other hand might not. Take me for an example, i have a job and when i return home, i have mere 2-3 hours of game time, queue in DF took 30 min (DPS), how many more hours do i have left to be wasted continuously wiping because one party member simply have no idea of the fight at all.

The time for you to look up a youtube video or find a guide might be quicker than 90 min and i believe if you could just give in your 10 min time to read/watch, the fight will go a lot smoother.

This is call taking personal responsibility to ensure comfortable and smoother playing ground for everyone. Everyone is responsible.

And don't tell me about youtube literacy. Anyone can make an effort to purchase and play this game, get his character to lvl50 AND THEN tell everyone he is not youtube literate is just BS-ing. At least give everyone a more convincing excuse to be lazy.

TC : you really don't see anything wrong with just waddling into what, up until recently was part of the hardest context I the game, and saying "ok so fill me in rq"?

That's just ridiculous, and the exact reason DF is a joke for anything "endgame."

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

ps3 has youtube app. i know this, you know this, so does everyone else. argument invalid

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The argument is invalid if said ps3 player bothers to download the app, or even use it if they do, supposing the app is free in the first place.

I have you-tube all over my alienware, which is all over the place in video quality.

The fact remains is that before everyone decided you-tube was a requirement MMOs weren't broke and didn't need fixed, now players feel "entitled" to kick or ridicule anyone who doesn't use it.

Don't know why I would bother being interested in playing a fight I have already memorized on a video.

My girlfriend plays on her PS3 downstairs, never watches you-tube on a XIV fight, never gets any "entitled" garbage spouted from our FC, and does just fine.

No one calls her "invalid", you-tube research on this game being a courtesy to anyone is "invalid", or maybe I missed it in the TOS.

Oh and by the way, I have never owned a ps3 and did not "know" it had you-tube app. this part of your point is invalid because you didn't know that, didn't bother asking me, and made an assumption.

Lol lazy would more aptly be people who have all day to explore you-tube, "instead" of having work to return home from, or perhaps memorizing said fight on you-tube instead of putting in the work to learn it cold.

Lazy could also be seen as 7 people who don't want to teach anyone anything, and just tell them to go watch a video.

Oh and I also have a job, matter of fact I have two, i am a foreman of a detail crew, and i am a journeyman farrier, (horseshoer), id rather direct my ambition online to learning a fight swinging a weapon instead of watching someone else do it on a video to make it easier for me or anyone else.

There is more "will" applied to keying your roll and learning the fight the hard way, than pressing "play" and watching someone else do it.

That sounds rather lazy to me, and to respond to your later reply due to posting limits, I do not feel the need to spoon feed or babysit people who feel they need the game to be made easier for them by only playing with people who cant play XIV without forehand knowledge of mechanics through you-tube.

At 52 I find learning the fight winning or dieing a lot more "grown up" than doing everything the easy way.

By all means define concretely for me babysitting, spoon feeding, and growing up, ive done them all far more than you probably ever will.

So your complaining that someone yelled at you for not looking up the fight?
Get out.

Tell me exactly just how does one "learn" by playing CT how the zombie dragon works?
Either you're the idiot that is slowing everyone down or you have pre-learned the mechanics.

There is literally no way to tell visually the cause and effect of the mechanics of the skeletons. Same goes for many other elements like spiny plume and stone pillars. Either you're taught how they work or you will not know.

Now I'm not saying this is your fault but the game does a fairly lousy job at visual communication with the more complicated mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Lamentations

My girlfriend plays on her PS3 downstairs, never watches you-tube on a XIV fight, never gets any "entitled" garbage spouted from our FC, and does just fine.

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So she runs with the content with her own FC? FC members are willing to help one another in new content.
The problem is that you have individuals that REFUSE to watch a video, and then que for a DF, wanting an explanation for the fight, but refused to watch a video for in the first place because they do not want to "cheat" (Ummm, what?)
The other problem, is that you have another set of people saying that they pay for the game, and therefore they should be able to play the way they want to, and screw everyone else. There is no shortage of people in the game that you can play with that share your perspective (It is why we go out, make friends ingame, join FCs, etc to begin with). Why are these individuals so adamant about defending THEIR play style, but screwing everyone else? I am sorry, but no

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Originally Posted by Seif

Tell me exactly just how does one "learn" by playing CT how the zombie dragon works?
Either you're the idiot that is slowing everyone down or you have pre-learned the mechanics.

There is literally no way to tell visually the cause and effect of the mechanics of the skeletons. Same goes for many other elements like spiny plume and stone pillars. Either you're taught how they work or you will not know.

Now I'm not saying this is your fault but the game does a fairly lousy job at visual communication with the more complicated mechanics.

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Well if the game does a lousy job so will the video "of it".

People can watch video till they pass out, until people actually do the fight, they don't really know shit about it anyway.

Watching other people fight on you-tube isn't doing it.

So where do the makers of these videos go to watch how to clear content?

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Originally Posted by Seif

Tell me exactly just how does one "learn" by playing CT how the zombie dragon works?

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Because noone ever understood how it worked and just repeated what hackers told them to do.

Seriously, both side can have arguments, well made or not. But some are just dull....

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Originally Posted by Lamentations

Lol lazy would more aptly be people who have all day to explore you-tube, "instead" of having work to return home from, or perhaps memorizing said fight on you-tube instead of putting in the work to learn it cold.

Lazy could also be seen as 7 people who don't want to teach anyone anything, and just tell them to go watch a video.

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I wouldn't term it as memorize, to watch and to at least have an idea what you need to do and are dealing with is call observe and learn. It is the same as learning it cold except you do not do it while wasting everyone's time. That's the whole point of the argument, just because you want to learn it your way, everyone have to sacrifice. Just because you want to do it your way, you expect everyone to understand and compromise their time.

Why must SEVEN people need to do anything for that ONE who refuses to commit for the success of the WHOLE party? Last check, this game is not called nanny-dash. We don't do baby sit, grow up, no one will spoon feed you.

I am new to the game and exploring as I go - I have not and will not read or look up guides until I get into serious high-level content; then I think it is common courtesy to have an idea what might go on. So I can see a bit of both sides to this argument I guess - though some of the rudeness I occasionally see in group chat is a bit beyond the pale - then I guess this is what ignore is for.

Well myself i will never give advice about how to play a job unless specifically asked 'How can i play this better?'. On the OP i think its fine going into a fight not knowing anything about it at all, but its dependent on your ability to learn the fight etc. Anyway things like that happen every so often and got to look on the brightside if any and keep playing ^^;

Side note; i've never been asked how to play better by anyone in a dungeon or duty. perhaps because i would never comment in party chat on another plays ability or mistakes. i keep that sort of thing in ls or fc only lol

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Originally Posted by TonyACT

I am new to the game and exploring as I go - I have not and will not read or look up guides until I get into serious high-level content;

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This is a good attitude. You realy don't need to loo at guides for anything but extremes and coil (and CT because of the overabundance of mechanics), but from tht point on you're massively hurting yourself AND your team by refusing to prepare.

Brb, looking for job at the hospital as a surgeon without knowing anything about what I do. I hope they do not fire me... 8D

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

Brb, looking for job at the hospital as a surgeon without knowing anything about what I do. I hope they do not fire me... 8D

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it is missing a point. it is expected you know how to do what you do, dodging, dps, healing/holding aggro, and the like. but where was it written that we needed prior knowledge of the fight mechanics before even entering the fight? some will wipe the party from not knowing but it is there playing and they can choose how to learn albeit it may be a bit painful of learning. many dungeons as healer i went into without knowing stuff prior to entering and it went perfectly well, learned the fight as i went or on the second attempt.

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Originally Posted by Sayoko

it is missing a point. it is expected you know how to do what you do, dodging, dps, healing/holding aggro, and the like.

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Strange, but people, who enter hard content completely unprepared, are often bad in their job too.

And about dodging.. How you dodge divebombs at t5 for example, if you don't know what that green mark on party member means? Same about twisters.

About dodging, got as healer in Minstrel duty, after three wipes with people dying even at first plumes (that are telegraphed, it just missing someone who knoks at your door's room and say "hey! a plume coming! please move 3cm far there!"), and when at wipe time I healed the world without have to heal myself one single time, people doesn't find better thing than blame the healing.

The above, to mark the point it is really fine to me if someone wants learn the fight themself, as personal improvement, but it is important to go in with at least the basics done, as dodging the big aoe that comes in almost any high level duty. Dying there just on the basics, means the player still have to improve hilself before attempt to do more difficult things.

I find it comical that the basis of the oppositions' arguement is still "you are wasting our time". You do realize you are playing a GAME right? Whose sole purpose is to get you into a non realistic non joblike environment to WASTE TIME. Come on guys. Play the game as suits you. Wanna be hardcore raider? Do it. Study everything to your heart desires. Wanna go at your leisure? Cool. Do as you like. Both sides need to quit this mess. Neither is obligated to the other regardless of numbers.

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Originally Posted by Seiryuukishi

I find it comical that the basis of the oppositions' arguement is still "you are wasting our time". You do realize you are playing a GAME right? Whose sole purpose is to get you into a non realistic non joblike environment to WASTE TIME. Come on guys. Play the game as suits you. Wanna be hardcore raider? Do it. Study everything to your heart desires. Wanna go at your leisure? Cool. Do as you like. Both sides need to quit this mess. Neither is obligated to the other regardless of numbers.

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In a singe player game or even while playing solo sure play the way you like but in a multiplayer game where there's 3/7/23 other people then a simple NO. The OP was just being lazy.

From the start of Turn 5 there's specific things need to do. conflags and fireballs. Theres specific things you need to do. Divebombs, twisters, dreadknights. even the final phase. There is specific things you need to do to beat Twintania. With zero information you will have no idea what to do to pass those. Wanting to go in blind is not going in and asking "What do I do?"

Goin in without that knowledge on fights with mechanics that can wipe the party where the other 7 know what to do. How is that fair?

In reply to those saying players should go into DF expecting new players who don't know the fight. Those said players should also go into DF expecting players who don't want to teach them either and do the research themselves. Instead of expecting everyone to cater to them.

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Originally Posted by Seiryuukishi

I find it comical that the basis of the oppositions' arguement is still "you are wasting our time". You do realize you are playing a GAME right? Whose sole purpose is to get you into a non realistic non joblike environment to WASTE TIME. Come on guys. Play the game as suits you. Wanna be hardcore raider? Do it. Study everything to your heart desires. Wanna go at your leisure? Cool. Do as you like. Both sides need to quit this mess. Neither is obligated to the other regardless of numbers.

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To add to that, how can someone that's hardcore not have a static? That makes no sense since how can anyone be wasting their time if they are all about the exclusive club?

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Originally Posted by Seiryuukishi

I find it comical that the basis of the oppositions' arguement is still "you are wasting our time". You do realize you are playing a GAME right? Whose sole purpose is to get you into a non realistic non joblike environment to WASTE TIME. Come on guys. Play the game as suits you. Wanna be hardcore raider? Do it. Study everything to your heart desires. Wanna go at your leisure? Cool. Do as you like. Both sides need to quit this mess. Neither is obligated to the other regardless of numbers.

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No, a game is meant to be entertainment. Good entertainment is NEVER a waste of time to me. Bad entertainment on the other hand...

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

Brb, looking for job at the hospital as a surgeon without knowing anything about what I do. I hope they do not fire me... 8D

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brb, looking for an hospital which recruits people randomly in the street expecting them to fully know how to perform surgery

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Originally Posted by Sayoko

it is missing a point. it is expected you know how to do what you do, dodging, dps, healing/holding aggro, and the like. but where was it written that we needed prior knowledge of the fight mechanics before even entering the fight? some will wipe the party from not knowing but it is there playing and they can choose how to learn albeit it may be a bit painful of learning. many dungeons as healer i went into without knowing stuff prior to entering and it went perfectly well, learned the fight as i went or on the second attempt.

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It works for easy stuff. But do you really expect people to know how the coil bosses works without prior knowledge? It takes hours of training for progress groups to get past those bosses before strat videos are up.

I personally stay away from Duty Finder and Party Finder, with the exception of the Duty Roulette each day, so I really have no personal opinion either way. I do have a question for those who are saying Duty Finder should be for learning. Let's hypothetically say Duty Finder is understood by the masses to be the "learning" place for fights, and then you use Party Finder for the kills. Over time, your queue times are going to end up being similar to this thread. It almost seems to me there is going to be an ebb and flow, depending on where people are stuck at. What I'm saying is that three months from now, there might not be anyone to join DF to "learn" Coil, and thus the expectation might be seen as Duty Finder for T5 is for clears, and Party Finder for new people. The issue I see is that when does that pendulum swing, and there doesn't seem to be consensus (not that I would expect there to be).

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

brb, looking for an hospital which recruits people randomly in the street expecting them to fully know how to perform surgery

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Bad analogy. People who queue for an instance = People sending in an application. So it's not just random people. The difference between getting a job and joining an instance is: For a job, people review your application/CV to make sure you can do it. ;p

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Originally Posted by Amberion

Bad analogy. People who queue for an instance = People sending in an application. So it's not just random people. The difference between getting a job and joining an instance is: For a job, people review your application/CV to make sure you can do it. ;p

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On the other hand, if they pick randomly in the stock of applications without reviewing it (DF), they can't complain if the one they got can't do the job. They can either stop the trial (leaving the instance) or deal with it and teach him a few basics hoping that he will progress.

It would have been a different matter if they had at least read the CV (PF). Then they could have known he wasn't suitable for the job, or if he somehow managed to sneak in, could boot him out without any second thought.

I kinda find it amusing that the song in the opening video says right in the lyrics "look to those who walk before to lead those who walk after." And yet here we are 32 pages of arguing lmao.

My point of views Is DF is their to end up with different kind of player (Learner / youtuber) ...PF was made for people to create ONLY Youtuber party or ONLY learning party .....


Before coil 1 to 5 was not in DF and only youtuber team could be it in .... so now its on DF so that new player can have chance of doing it
im not talking of me i did t4 i know the fight (but guess what i never watched video)

And i can tell you .... you cannot start T1 .. T2 ..without talking to each other which one is MT or OT .... hummm weird you guys say "we know our fight" dont want to prepare before boss but in T1 T2 we spend always few sec telling who is MT or OT and for BRD who do the first blunt arrow to the first ...but that is telling what the other do .... in CT at behemot people wait at the boss telling who is at what tower and who MT or OT ...... at diabolos : "who do the doors?" that is getting prepare. ...

as a tank to mark the mobs is his job ....but aint that is telling what to do in the first place. or these days tank dont mark anymore.

So why complain .. learner dont watch video ...cos anyway at each big boss like that you still need to prepare and get ready .... what wrong in just saying hey dont forgot do that or in many party i had the tank had a macro that make sound to tell the other to get away like in CT for behemot at meteor

Me when i bought the game and read the TOS ... there was nothing wrote on the box :Requirements : Youtube app to know the fight .... and in the TOS there is nothing wrote on it : You have to look Youtube to know the fight or you will get Banned