Titan Extreme is NOT Fun

Honestly, I have no intention of even doing the EM primal fights, it's just not fun for me. After suffering through titan HM around 100 times, I just don't want to play a game that has 6 waves of twitch reactions, that if one person makes a mistake it's game over. Make the fights based on job skill rather than twitch avoidance and I'll be happy to play them, otherwise I'm done with them. Some people enjoy this, and that's great, just count me out, I'll go play the parts of the game that I do enjoy.

I find it amusing when so many people in beta said the game was too easy. They purposely made some things easy and made sure that the cutting edge encounters were challenging.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

I find it amusing when so many people in beta said the game was too easy. They purposely made some things easy and made sure that the cutting edge encounters were challenging.

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The problem is not with something being hard or challenging, it's just that SE has very little creativity when designing "hard" boss encounters.
Yes, making players dodge unforgiving telegraphs for 10 minutes straight is difficult, but it's "cheap" difficulty, and hardly anyone enjoys that.
Take one of WoW's bosses, Illidan, for example.
At first glance, it might even look similar to the Titan EX fight - several progressive stages, AoE to avoid, adds that need to be picked up, positioning is the key.
But despite it being a boss from 2007 it was designed with so much more complexity that looking at FFXIV's "stack on healers, dodge stuff, kill adds" one can only sigh.
Twintania is a fight done right. EX Primals, for the most part, are not.

Ugh, just killed this bad boy with party finder group on Ragnarok 9 minutes before maintenance. I am probably a slowpoke because I had to progress 5 days to be able to dodge everything without constantly making a mistakes. It cost me lots of nerves but it's a wonderful achievement and I also think that I've learned to dodge alot there.

By this post I'd also like to say sorry to all parties who called me handless noob who can't handle HM titan mechanics, kicked me for dying 2 times (mostly I left to not hold them back) etc., because I still see no 100% similarity with Titan HM. For me this was the hardest fight in game and maybe even in my MMO history, but I say that there is no need for nerf. It's completely doable with random people aswell, but it takes some time.

I wish GL to everyone who still has to slay this beast. :))

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Originally Posted by Hitome

It's really sad to see people still clinging onto WoW. It's a great game and still going, you know? Perhaps wander back over to it.
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Obviously not everyone is the same. If you want my opinion, 14 will head more towards the 11 direction than WoW direction based on what we have so far. Use intelligent decisions and go do things that you find fun.

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Hey, I find both WoW and FF14 very good - and very flawed. I am alternating them now - WoW is my "serious" game where I want to be badass, and FF14 is my "casual" game which I play to immerse in the pretty landscapes. So I plan to do a lot of FATES, dungeons, crafting, beast quests, etc. Titan may go to Hell, and stay there. His landscape sucks. :P

3% wipe today. I am disappoint.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

I find it amusing when so many people in beta said the game was too easy. They purposely made some things easy and made sure that the cutting edge encounters were challenging.

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There is a profound and very meaningful difference between well designed "Challenging difficulty" versus "Fake Difficulty". http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...FakeDifficulty

FF XIV's "endgame" is PLAGUED by the latter.

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Originally Posted by Virtuso

There is a profound and very meaningful difference between well designed "Challenging difficulty" versus "Fake Difficulty". http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...FakeDifficulty

FF XIV's "endgame" is PLAGUED by the latter.

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Originally Posted by Pageyoulinked

but they can be avoided by skilled movement - thus, the difficulty is real.

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Sounds like titan to me.

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Originally Posted by Hanabira

Sounds like titan to me.

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Sounds more like:

The game requires the player to use skills or knowledge that are either incorrect or have nothing to do with the genre.

To me. Is this a MMORPG or some action game, where our "skilled movement" = compensating for lag, which would be...

Bad technical aspects make it difficult.

most people that fail at titan just blame lag. just people wont admit to not being fast enough.

took me 3 attempts to kill first time. you bad

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Originally Posted by Hanabira

most people that fail at titan just blame lag. just people wont admit to not being fast enough.

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Actually, they can rightfully do so, because now that I have a 100% success rate on my end, I can safely say that all my moves are the way they are because the entire fight is scripted and it's just a matter of practice to dodge all the stuff before you actually see it. I'll bet with you that if what people saw on their screens was actually the truth, that a lot less people would have trouble at succeeding. Arguably, if that were the case, nobody would find Titan HM actually difficult, because it's so ridiculously simple.

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Originally Posted by Moirear

Actually, they can rightfully do so, because now that I have a 100% success rate on my end, I can safely say that all my moves are the way they are because the entire fight is scripted and it's just a matter of practice to dodge all the stuff before you actually see it. I'll bet with you that if what people saw on their screens was actually the truth, that a lot less people would have trouble at succeeding. Arguably, if that were the case, nobody would find Titan HM actually difficult, because it's so ridiculously simple.

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So you basically plan in advance for things that are to come? And you think this is a bad practice?

I hope you don't play a healer or tank.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

So you basically plan in advance for things that are to come? And you think this is a bad practice?

I hope you don't play a healer or tank.

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Keep going, you're starting to be funny.

OP and this new generation of gamers are the reason why video games nowadays so easy and lack of depth.

Have anything unfinished -> go to forums and complain with 1337 amount of excuses and compare to X or Y games blah blah.

It's just a matter of time SE will nerf down everything eventually.

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Originally Posted by Billie21

Keep going, you're starting to be funny.

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Which is better than anything you've done. You haven't been insightful or helpful. You certainly haven't proven yourself knowledgeable regarding server structure or functionality. Hell, you haven't even demonstrated competence in any computer-related field, for that matter. You say there is something wrong with SE's game but have offered up no solution and, quite frankly, seem to be an armchair programmer/engineer.

You can go on whining about something that is obvious to all of us. Those of us who work with what we are given, though, will continue to play and enjoy the game. Lag has affected me at times. Know what I didn't do? Jump on the forum and start whining about it. Instead, I persevered and have a sense of immense satisfaction after completing something with 7 other players (including one from the UK) that people in this thread seem to think is impossible despite that 'lag'.

Come to think of it: I wonder why someone that has no access to Titan extreme would post in a Titan extreme thread.

As posted in the other thread:

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Originally Posted by Hitome

It's useless arguing with people who don't even understand how their computer works let alone understanding something as complex as a server, Tig.

As an EE, it sometimes depresses me to see people, who have no technical background, point fingers and talk about technical subjects that they clearly don't understand. Then I realize that this is an Internet gaming forum where a majority of the population are in their late teens/early 20s and it makes sense.

Like I said: go take your innovative ideas, backed by your experience in the field via arduous training in a university/through an internship or co-op, to SE so that they can fix this obvious problem that you seem to understand completely where the engineers/programmers at SE seem to not get it.

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Still finding it funny? I suppose a child would.

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Originally Posted by Livi

OP and this new generation of gamers are the reason why video games nowadays so easy and lack of depth.

Have anything unfinished -> go to forums and complain with 1337 amount of excuses and compare to X or Y games blah blah.

It's just a matter of time SE will nerf down everything eventually.

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Someone's a little cranky, I see.

http://i.imgur.com/6QtBq6A.jpg

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Originally Posted by ArtEmisPalmecia

The "elites" are self entitled because they have gotten so use to working with server lag, they think it is "normal" and it keeps the "scrubs" off their game.

Hint: Your wrong, and you are the minority. Shocking, I know... I hope us"casuals" ruin this game for you, because honestly, the forums and the in-game community would be a lot less toxic with you gone.

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I play with people at the edges of the NA datacenter's intended coverage area (west coast US and Europe) and we all dodge on reaction, not prediction, so your theory is flawed. I also don't call anyone a "scrub" and have no interest in seeing "casuals" driven out of the game. I don't think all the content in the game needs to be casual-friendly, though, nor do I think all the content in the game should be hardcore. I think there needs to be a variety. I understand that you don't want to deal with mechanics you find frustrating, and that's fine. The answer to that is to simply not do the fights you don't enjoy. Don't do Titan Extreme. It's as easy as that. You can even buy ilvl90 accessories and weapons using tomes, so you're not missing out on gear. The content is there for the people who do enjoy it or are willing to do what it takes to complete it and be rewarded for doing so.

You apparently only want the game to have content that's fun for you, and you want people who enjoy other things to be driven out. I want the game to have a variety of content that meets both of our interests. I don't expect everything to be enjoyable to me, and quite a lot of it is not, and that's fine. Which of us is really acting "entitled" here?

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Originally Posted by Hitome

So you basically plan in advance for things that are to come? And you think this is a bad practice?

I hope you don't play a healer or tank.

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I do and I do just fine, but we're talking about wiggly-fingers action game style mechanics, where your reaction would normally count, but doesn't because it's simply based on rote memorization rather than "skill" in the sense of the word of reaction.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

I play with people at the edges of the NA datacenter's intended coverage area (west coast US and Europe) and we all dodge on reaction, not prediction, so your theory is flawed. I also don't call anyone a "scrub" and have no interest in seeing "casuals" driven out of the game. I don't think all the content in the game needs to be casual-friendly, though, nor do I think all the content in the game should be hardcore. I think there needs to be a variety. I understand that you don't want to deal with mechanics you find frustrating, and that's fine. The answer to that is to simply not do the fights you don't enjoy. Don't do Titan Extreme. It's as easy as that. You can even buy ilvl90 accessories and weapons using tomes, so you're not missing out on gear. The content is there for the people who do enjoy it or are willing to do what it takes to complete it and be rewarded for doing so.

You apparently only want the game to have content that's fun for you, and you want people who enjoy other things to be driven out. I want the game to have a variety of content that meets both of our interests. I don't expect everything to be enjoyable to me, and quite a lot of it is not, and that's fine. Which of us is really acting "entitled" here?

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I will take the time to write out a more proper response to your post as it is very well written out and not completely condescending like others on this forum, but I'm sorry to say that your response is somewhat flawed. Once you fight Titan so many times, you are playing off prediction, not reaction. Why? Cause it is a 100% scripted fight, and people will eventually start to memorize the moves in some form, even if they cannot call it out themselves perfectly. If the extreme mode content is made for the minority crowd, it should not be so easily accessible via Duty Finder for a casual to jump into. It should of been handled in the same manner as the Binding Coil, or like in FFXI; where it is either your in a HNM linkshell, or not. It was pretty much cut and dry on which content was made for which group.

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Originally Posted by ArtEmisPalmecia

Once you fight Titan so many times, you are playing off prediction, not reaction. Why? Cause it is a 100% scripted fight, and people will eventually start to memorize the moves in some form, even if they cannot call it out themselves perfectly.

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Sure, after a while prediction kicks in, but early on when you don't have enough experience it's all reaction. Nobody's perfect but both in Hard and Extreme I've seen lots and lots of people able to jump right in and dodge on reaction well before they could have the experience or awareness to know when plumes were coming. It's mostly about being alert.

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If the extreme mode content is made for the minority crowd, it should not be so easily accessible via Duty Finder for a casual to jump into. It should of been handled in the same manner as the Binding Coil, or like in FFXI; where it is either your in a HNM linkshell, or not. It was pretty much cut and dry on which content was made for which group.

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Availability through the duty finder is a poor indicator of what is casual vs. what is hardcore content. Coil is missing from the duty finder likely due to difficulty in working out how to handle progress saves and syncing and entrance lockouts, features which no other content available via duty finder incorporates. Additionally, access to Titan Extreme is locked behind a Garuda Extreme clear, which itself is locked behind a Titan Hard clear.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

...access to Titan Extreme is locked behind a Garuda Extreme clear, which itself is locked behind a Titan Hard clear.

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A player can be carried through Garuda X to some extent. I had a discussion with a person in my Titan X party last night who used to sell Titan HM clears. He half-joked, something to the effect of, he's now paying the price for all those relic sales because people can access content they weren't skilled/geared/ISP'd for. Because Garuda X is not a particularly difficult fight, I think there will be many people that make it to the wall that is Titan X and progress no further (until selling Titan X runs is more of a thing).

They should made the EX fight more random abilities used instead of being scripted as it currently is would make the fight abit more interesting if cannot prodict the next ability but that could be used for the ultra mega extreme fights.

Believe it or not. Peoples already start selling Titan Xm run on my server/...... ;S

It's a pretty epic fight. I agree the scripted aspects of it made it in some ways easier then HM but requires memorization and studying which who knows if that really should be a part of an MMO and not everyone is willing to do that. A lot of players are gear blasting the fight as well at this point. It most likely is detrimental to the community in terms of not being accessible or cleared by everyone. It prob leads to a lot of frustration and anger. Some people enjoy the intensity most do not enjoy wiping for days especially if it's due to other people's abilities. A good majority of players patience quickly runs out if wipes are happening. I'd say it's most likely passed what the average player will clear in this gear level but there will be carrying and selling in the future garuda > titan > ifrit kills the same as titan HM so people will get it.

The comments on Party Finder for almost every group are very toxic and not community building at all. I would say before the patch the community felt like a Final Fantasy MMO, after the patch the community feels incredibly self absorbed most likely the most self absorbed I've seen a player base in any MMO. You have to ask yourself is all this really worth it for the short thrill of a fairly fast paced action fight? (That's still soft enough to be cleared the first day)

The people that can clear mostly have better weapons already have it on farm already and are already bored and ready for the next thing besides possibly farming accessories now it's just a source of frustration making everyone selfish and angry.

Walking kind of a strange line. The fights are all cleared on day 1 so they arn't hard enough to cater to the Hard Core playerbase. But it seems like they will be to hard for a majority of players, titan at least. How can something be to hard and to easy? I'm inclined to agree it's the unforgiving insta kill threat, and the fact that gear adds so much health. The scaling of equipment is big so players that could easily kill Titan EX have been able to kill other things and have more then enough gear handle it, whereas players that can't kill Titan EX can't kill other things or get gear as reliably and are double penalized in some ways. The time gating of equipment with the job system plays a part as well I think as it is very unforgiving if you rely on myth and gear a few classes here and there.

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Originally Posted by Gwynn

The people that can clear mostly have better weapons already have it on farm already and are already bored and ready for the next thing besides possibly farming accessories now it's just a source of frustration making everyone selfish and angry.

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It's not boring, there's just no point in beating it anymore besides once a week for a i90 weapon. We farmed all three for 3-4 hours each to where every person got all 5 accessories/rings/earrings that each can drop. Once you have those, there's no point to do it again except for the weekly reset.

If a friend or FC member needs it I'll help, but why do it otherwise now?

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

It's not boring, there's just no point in beating it anymore besides once a week for a i90 weapon. We farmed all three for 3-4 hours each to where every person got all 5 accessories/rings/earrings that each can drop. Once you have those, there's no point to do it again except for the weekly reset.

If a friend or FC member needs it I'll help, but why do it otherwise now?

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For the sake of community I guess. I can see a vast amount of gamers being really discouraged by the Party Finder comments etc. It's not hard core enough to give the game a reputation as a "Hard" game and it isolates a lot of the community and has changed the community I'd say for the (much) worse. The content was slightly fun but short and the effects it's had has made the game a lot less enjoyable for me. Everyone I hang out with is so high strung, it's like they are on drugs, not in a super power kind of way but a spaz way.

For example I play with mostly family members, my girlfriend, and a couple of casual friends. I play more seriously then they do and get things done with some linkshells I go with but I prefer to play with the family and my people for obvious reasons. They aren't up to that level of twitch and don't know if they can, perhaps with practice but when we try other members are so exclusive and angry it makes the whole experience really quite terrible. Hence to easy to be hardcore to hard to have fun with some friend. I'm used to the general amount of MMO angry but it's very insane at times, I've never seen it this bad in any game.


Can't do anything about it individually however.

People rely on memorization because this is the one game where reflex alone isn't enough. I've said this before but suppose you managed to hook an AI that can instantly interpret any mechanism in a MMORPG the moment they appear, but it does not know what any of the mechanisms are ahead of time (so it can't prepare for them by standing in the right spots), this AI would run circles around the best human player in every MMORPG except this one. To use a simple example, this AI would have no idea that a Geocrush is coming immediately after Eye of the Storm on Ultima Weapon HM, so it'd take full damage from that. In this game even with arbitarily awesome reflexes, it is still entirely possible to find yourself completely trapped by some mechanism with no way of escaping if you didn't know it's coming ahead of time. The lag tends to amplify this issue, but even with no lag at all there are numerous examples of mechanism that simply cannot be avoided unless you know what they are ahead of time.

Honestly this game is more like the old school 'guess what the dev is thinking' than the newer paradigm of 'if your reflexes are awesome enough you can do everything' that virtually every other MMORPG uses.

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Originally Posted by Gwynn

For the sake of community I guess.

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This is why I usually tell whoever I'm going to help to pug or duty finder it a few times before asking for help. They should learn the basic mechanics of the fight before we attempt to actually kill it. I don't think it's asking too much to not have to baby-sit their learning phase. Once they get a little experience, we'll form a group and down it. I'm sure if your friends/family practiced each hard type of run a few times, they'd do a lot better when you form a kill group (and likely avoid a lot of trolling). But to expect players who down it every time to wipe again and again because of your friend/family member without leaving isn't realistic.

I actually prefer to do primals outside my static, I know that sounds masochistic but I enjoy the triumph of beating them with rag tag groups and minimal communication. It took a lot of runs but I got a couple of Titan Ex wins and even beat Ifrit in DF. DF for Ex primals is surprisingly competent as I imagine only the brave care to venture though I am sure that will change with time. Plus it gives me a tough goal every week, I don't think I will win Titan Ex every week in pugs but that is fine with me.

It's fun with competent players, however, most of the time I've done it - there's always that awkward one or two players that die in phase 1 or 2 just before the heart phase... Then it just goes downhill from there and people start ragequitting lol.

Ultima is more fun with a duty finder group because you actually stand a chance. Easier to get players revived as well.

Titan hm is only fun if you have a competent group so that means not possible in duty finder unless you hit the jackpot and get in with players who know the fight and queued together.

Ultima is definitely fun in PF groups, though I think we can all agree that Garuda Ex "farm" parties are the WORST. Ugh such a long fight and so fragile, get 90% into the fight and have one small mistake it is a wipe. At least in Titan people get in tough situations or make a bad judgement call, in Garuda it is just a long drawn out fight with several ways to wipe the party.

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Originally Posted by Doo

At least in those games you mentioned, you don't have to rely on 7 other players.

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lol then why play an MMO if not to rely on the other players?

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Originally Posted by NeonC

Ultima is definitely fun in PF groups, though I think we can all agree that Garuda Ex "farm" parties are the WORST. Ugh such a long fight and so fragile, get 90% into the fight and have one small mistake it is a wipe. At least in Titan people get in tough situations or make a bad judgement call, in Garuda it is just a long drawn out fight with several ways to wipe the party.

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garuda is painfull long , i guess SE doubled the HP just because...

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

lol then why play an MMO if not to rely on the other players?

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I don't mind relying on others to some degree. Just don't like it when one or two players can hold down an entire group as seen in titan hm. Most mmos aren't like this. The more skilled players can make up the difference.

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

<snip>Yes, this means some people might never be able to do this due to crappy net, but if you have constant connection issues that negatively impact your gameplay, maybe you shouldn't be playing an online game at all.

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Or maybe I could play the game MY way, instead or YOUR way? :P

Can someone tell me what a tank and healer should do during the adds phase? I've seen the main tank doing Titan die during the adds phase constantly in pug games. Is he supposed to pop a cooldown? Or is the healer not healing him fast enough?

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Originally Posted by Nocens

If you can't dodge stuff then MMOs ain't the games for you lol

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I am nor blessed by young age, nor by living in an Internet-friendly zone, nor by great amounts of leisure time. All this makes me a terrible dodger. In spite of this, my accomplishments in MMOs would amaze you... :P

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Originally Posted by odintius

They should made the EX fight more random abilities used instead of being scripted as it currently is would make the fight abit more interesting if cannot prodict the next ability but that could be used for the ultra mega extreme fights.

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Yah, lets make primals do random abilities. Because Titan doing tableflip 6 times in a row randomly would just add so much depth. The excuses people coming up with when they can't do a fight is just entertaining at this point. "INSTANT KILL ABILITIES ARE SO DUMB OMG". Right, lets have an ability not instant kill you, so a healer can top you off in 2 seconds.