Re-rolling from Warrior, thoughts?

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Originally Posted by nimrod

SPOILER: Turn4 with a warrior in the group: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nukLMcgfc8U /SPOILER

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you're actually maintanking turn 4

"adds" aren't the main source of damage there, that first dreadnought with 4 stacks is, and then the double dreadnought

I don't think anyone was arguing that coil isn't possible with 1 war 1 pld, it's the 2x war vs 2x pld you should be looking at

things are -much- easier with 2 paladins when compared to 2 warriors, but yeah 1 war can work - they just don't tank the harder hitting mobs

the warrior is the OT in your video, he grabs the little guys, the paladin grabs the hard hitting things

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Originally Posted by Vmage

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Well knight and soldier with 2 adds are also "hard" hitting in that regards.
Sure PLD tanks at that video the dreadnauts, the Warrior put way more DPS out in those phases as an offTank as PLD could do. I can´t judge about 2 PLDs, guess its not really easier cause u have the dmg loss from having 2 of them in.
I guess "undergeared" it will be sure easier to manage the first two turns, but with "decent" gear for that instance its easy to roll both a PLD and a Warrior. My argument was about rolling a Warrior is also good... some ppl are saying warrior would be trash and thats not the case at all in the moment for endgame or even before that warriors can Solo tank everything plds can if played right.

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Originally Posted by Azostar

Thanks for the discussion guys, decided to level PLD after all, for the current better tanking, and it will also benefit warrior tank. Will probably level up MNK at some point too for the skills but that'll be a while off.

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Excellent idea. I think it is good to have both tanks (will resume soon leveling warrior), as this is an mmo after all and I'm sure each will get visited in turn by the buff stick and nerf bat and will each have their own turn as flavour of the month.

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Originally Posted by Blazn

Done everything but coil and i have 0 issues tanking or getting in groups. While my damage taken is greater than a paladins most my healers agree they aren't healing that much mmore than a paladin, warriors require much more skill and timing of CD's to get the job done though. Also Yoshi is hinting at buffs for the warrior in 2.1

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Coil is where it makes a difference so doing everything but Coil means nothing when talking about Coil.

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Originally Posted by Eclipsed

I have leveled and geared War, Pld, and Brd to 50 since launch.

If endgame is your goal :

Tank : PLD hands down, WAR is just unwanted and far less viable as a tank.

DPS : BRD, DRG, BLM (possibly SMN). There are a million DRG's and BRD's though so I would suggest one of the dps casters.

Healer : Both are needed and viable, choose whichever appeals to you the most.

Those are pretty much the best options. My choice for 8 man min/max raid group comp at this point : PLDx2, BRDx2, BLM(or SMN), DRG, WHM, SCH.

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Most groups don't want melee DPS. Dragoons and Monks are left in the cold.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

It isn't, the same way Defiance isn't. It's a buff that stays active until disabled by something, but you still have to activate it.

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You have been wrong about almost everything you've posted in this thread.

20% damage reduction is a far more effective skill than 25% more HP with a variable 15% increased healing.

20% reduction works, effectively, as 25% more HP and 25% increased healing received. Under ideal circumstances it will take 8.6% more healing to heal a warrior to full health (i.e. sitting on 5 stacks of wrath) than it will take for a PLD.

Once you add convalescence into the mix for both WAR and PLD, it changes dramatically. Under convalesence a PLD will require a whopping 20% less healing to top off because the effective increased healing from shield oath and the convalesence buff stack multiplicatively rather than additively.

Aside from that, your numbers for Inner Beast sound like nonsense.

Folks need to remember that CoB is not a very good measurement of class performance as there is an entire raid-tier missing from the game. CoB is not balanced for characters wearing ilvl 70 gear. Maybe once people start getting full sets of AF2 we can make a better assessment.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

I'm implying that it (Convalescence) helps more because WARs already get healed for more from Wrath stacks and the higher HP pools, so stacking on that goes further than with PLD. I'm not talking self heals; all outside heals. Inner Beast technically has no cooldown, and I've used it twice in a row on more than one occasion where the healer was either out of mp, dead from stupidity or a mistake, or just paralyzed.

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And PLDs being healed get more effective health per point of heal because they have more passive defense, meaning that the gain from convalescence is equally multiplicative. In fact, I'm not even sure that the healing bonus from convalescence IS multiplicative with warrior healing received, while it definitely is with pld defenses. Also, since it is a paladin ability after all, and paladins get improved convalescence, we get 30% healing from it where warriors get 20%.

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Originally Posted by oda

Folks need to remember that CoB is not a very good measurement of class performance as there is an entire raid-tier missing from the game. CoB is not balanced for characters wearing ilvl 70 gear. Maybe once people start getting full sets of AF2 we can make a better assessment.

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This is irrelevant; what people are supposed to be doing has no bearing on what people CAN do. When you are pushing hard content, you don't compare classes as they "should" be when the content is less hard. PLD tanks are better when content is hard; they take less damge and more effective healing, and have better cooldowns. The only, ONLY circumstance where you WANT to take a warrior over a pld right now is if damage, and more specifically aoe damage, is the factor in winning the fight. Yes, it can be done with warrior to a point; that is not the discussion at hand. In terms of competitive play, the balance point that matters is what people can do, not what they should be doing.

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Originally Posted by oda

Folks need to remember that CoB is not a very good measurement of class performance as there is an entire raid-tier missing from the game. CoB is not balanced for characters wearing ilvl 70 gear. Maybe once people start getting full sets of AF2 we can make a better assessment.

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So, let me get this straight.

PLD can main tank pretty much everything in ilvl 70 gear without much trouble (with the exception of Turn 5, but even then).
All the DPS can hit the DPS threshold requirements to kill bosses in ilvl 70 gear.
The healers can do enough healing to easily handle incidental raid damage and keep up the MT (when it's a PLD).

But, we should wait till ilvl 80 gear comes because then it will that might make WAR more viable?

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Originally Posted by neizero

Pld are way easier to heal and they have better cd's. Just suck it up and play pld for now until they fix war. You can MT titan as war just fine btw, but in coil you are really making life dificult for the group.

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This attitude is everything that's wrong with this community...

"It's too hard with WAR pout, pout. So sad it's not even funny. I don't get this mentality with gamers nowadays that, if it isn't easy, it's not worth their time.

I'm sure it's very possible with WAR, just takes a different strategy or maybe more thinking, (I know, I know, booo to thinking!).