Evolved mode concerns

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Originally Posted by Hanzz96

Yes friction has been removed! Bard could drop their dots if they weren't watching, they could override a proc, EA could drift costing you a free song proc, you could drift buffs so they no longer sync with your party. But that's all gone in what they showed. No buffs means a lack of reward or punishment for either syncing or not syncing with your party, there is now no reward for playing as a unit in this mmo.

You can't drift EA anyone because instead of being a 15s OGCD its a proc GCD just hit glowing button. Dots and RNG are GONE. You know those things bard was known for.

This is actually justb100% an easy mode and they can't hide it. If the aim is to get casual players intersted again the consquence will be losing a lot of high end players.

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On one side people are complaining about "but mah 2 Min Meta Skill Expression and loosing group play" and on the other hand having a problem about grey/green parser
cause they played group oriented and saving a run with an GCD Heal or Clemency or whatever and as a result getting punished by the meta slaves for their lesser parse.
God its really funny at this point.

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Originally Posted by Yodada

On one side people are complaining about "but mah 2 Min Meta Skill Expression and loosing group play" and on the other hand having a problem about grey/green parser
cause they played group oriented and saving a run with an GCD Heal or Clemency or whatever and as a result getting punished by the meta slaves for their lesser parse.
God its really funny at this point.

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Being punished for being grey or green is all in their head tbh

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Originally Posted by TeresaFortell

Exactly how would it lose the high end players? Granted, I don’t enjoy it having the blm treatment, but I don’t think the friction would be the turning point, rather if that job commits less dps in an unideal composition.

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Because it needs friction to be fun. There needs to be something to optimise and master, decisions to make and punishment for messing up. Thats what makes rotations in high end fun. Its not just about doing big numbers.

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Originally Posted by Sarantserel

My biggest concert with Evolved mode seems that they're removing even more points of friction from the job's rotations and are not adding anything else to replace it.

They state repeatedly that they want Evolved mode to have more freeform rotations and freedom. And while freedom CAN introduce opportunity for skill expression if it includes the need to make several moment to moment decision, making things TOO freeform can just remove any friction and instead remove any depth the job can have. The main thing I love about playing a job and mastering it is learning how to work around its friction points.

Like, looking at DRG. Having its filler being a looping rotation of 7 buttons meant you could screw it up. If you pressed the wrong button at the wrong time, you were penalized, therefore there was a reward in a higher performance for players that could do it consistently. Evolve gets rid of that friction by making all of DRG's combo repeated press of a single button.

Even for positionals. While the penalty for messing up a positional is seemingly steeper now and there's more restriction for the flank positionals, the positionals being buttons separate from your combo and thus being able to be used whenever so long as you don't overcap removes a lot of friction compared to current positionals have a set, rigid spot in your rotation. Assuming bosses don't start jumping all over the place and turning on a dime constantly, its pretty easy to find consistent spots to safely use your positionals since you have some room to hold them for those moments rather than being forced to use them at specific point in your rotation.

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I'm honestly starting to think they should've just not talked about evolved at all until they were far enough in development to showcase those things.

Because telling us 10 times that it's not going to be more simplistic than reborn mode isn't very convincing when the only thing we can then make out from your preview footage is everything being even more simplified and with less consequences.

No branching combos, no moment to moment decisions, just freestyle your 5 remaining buttons however you like and make sure to hit the blinking ones.
But I guess dragoon looks more fancy while doing that now, so the people who get excited by jingling keys are satisfied.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I'm honestly starting to think they should've just not talked about evolved at all until they were far enough in development to showcase those things.

Because telling us 10 times that it's not going to be more simplistic than reborn mode isn't very convincing when the only thing we can then make out from your preview footage is everything being even more simplified and with less consequences.

No branching combos, no moment to moment decisions, just freestyle your 5 remaining buttons however you like and make sure to hit the blinking ones.
But I guess dragoon looks more fancy while doing that now, so the people who get excited by jingling keys are satisfied.

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They even used the word easy like 6 times in the presentation after saying it wouldn't be easier

Well, they are trying to figure out how to work with the new system. It's not like everything can go smooth like right at the starts. At least they add the Realm Reborn system or things will be the same as Star Wars Galaxy when they revamp their combat system.

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Originally Posted by Pimsan20

Well, they are trying to figure out how to work with the new system. It's not like everything can go smooth like right at the starts. At least they add the Realm Reborn system or things will be the same as Star Wars Galaxy when they revamp their combat system.

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The problem is reborn mode being weaker means its not actually an valid choice to play especially in high end content. SE will balance the check around evo even if they say they won't they will and reborn will be just a little weaker than evo just like 7.0 PCT was just a little stronger than god himself

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Originally Posted by Hanzz96

They even used the word easy like 6 times in the presentation after saying it wouldn't be easier

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I was quite confused when they said a few times that PLD is "an easy tank." Right now PLD and GNB have the most interesting rotations, flexible enough to provide means to optimization and not make you fall asleep when pressing 1-2-3 and then 1-1-1 each minute. I'd even say that PLD is meta right now. It certainly isn't hard (neither of the tank jobs are), but it's fun to play.

What also bothers me a lot is that SE doesn't understand what playing support is (neither a healer nor a tank). Some of the examples of the Evo PLD kit contradict the main tank responsibilities and make me doubt that the devs understand what they are doing. (The artificial division between MT and OT makes use of some tank abilities questionable and/or obsolete.)

Job identity is important. Meta though is what makes a game toxic. World of Warcraft is a prime example of this because in that game you can't switch jobs, you level one class, period, you can have different sets of gear but if there's a Meta for the raid tiers and Mythics and you aren't it? You're going to spend MONTHS leveling and building another alt character so you can participate. That's what Meta does, it makes certain jobs get excluded by groups that want optimal composition, if the Meta isn't your favorite job, you're either playing something you don't like and burning yourself out, or...you're excluded.

That said? Job identity is just about as high a priority because once the jobs get homogenized to the point you're not play a BRD your just playing a Physical Ranged DPS and whether it's a BRD/DNC/MCH is really irrelevant because they all play the same way...that...is boring, dull...lackluster and you enjoy it so little you just...stop playing (Also something that happened in WoW leading to their sub numbers tanking during the Warlords of Draenor Expansion when they removed the build trees and dumbed down class builds.) The big boy MMORPGs watch each other, learn from each other. WoW stole from Guildwars, took their Dragon flight mechanics from GW2 to freshen up their game. SE watches WoW and the other big boys in the pond. That said, button bloat is a thing, I main a Sage and while I love it? The complexity of building impact for my heals and shields and managing procs and crits so I get everything my tool kit can deliver is all fun and games but if I die? I'm useless for the next 60-80 seconds while I regain mana, rebuild what I lost to the death while struggling with the death debuff and I see other Sage healers running around just spamming their DPS praying their secondaries will keep a tank alive and running their sad little selves melded to deliver more damage than healing thinking that will boost their secondaries enough for them to matter. I've always played the "Build it manage it" classes. Disc Priest in World of Warcraft, SCH followed by Sage in FFXIV, I enjoy the effort and complexity...however...I'm not the majority. I know I'm not, I wouldn't see so many Sages melded and geared into DPS instead of Optimal heal if other players even noticed how to build a shield proc or make a HOT and DOT crit sequence in their rotation. Complexity is fun...but it's not what the average player wants to deal with. SE is trying to make all of the classes more accessible while also maintaining identity...tough balance to keep there. I wish them well, and we'll see if this idea they have works. I play in a role they don't have a dedicated team for (Healers are grossly neglected) and I'm still having fun so...wait and see. Speak your mind for sure though and hope they read these forums and take it to heart.

You're right meta can make a game toxic even though toxic is another buzz word thrown around about WoW, PF, high end content meaning anything that particular person doesn't like.

Having reborn jobs be weaker than evolved will make a toxic meta because reborn WILL be locked out of groups and people WILL be kicked. Its not really a choice at all.

If you think BRD/DNC/MCH play the same frankly You're coping. BRD is watching dot timers, watching song timers, watching EA timers and reacting to procs. DNC is reacting to RNG as well but while managing the 15y radius of steps vs the 25 yalm radius of other ranged attacks while optimising who is chosen for dance partner and getting to play a cute mini game with steps. MCH is a static rotation that is gauge builder and spender. Everything must be kept on cooldown and heat and battery must be managed properly to have 50 heat and 100 battery at burst. They are very different.

As for sages melded for dps well thats the job identity you are the do dps and get free healing job...I'm not sure what you expect and of course you're punished for dying its a video game?

I don't really care if the "average player" doesn't want complexity despite what some people think its up to SE to find a middle ground because both high end and casual players keep the game going and Evo mode isn't a middle ground, its for toddlers smashing their face on the keyboard for glowing buttons.