@Casuals , do you think the message has gotten through?

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Originally Posted by SalamanderIX

As for the too easy part, there's a lot less to say. The dungeons are mostly hilariously easy and unrewarding, the MSQ is so afraid of challenge and there was few opportunities for it. I realize some players struggle, but would it really be so hard to give them something like - trust npcs are just godmoded to carry you, and msq challenges have a "very easy mode" toggle?

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I think maybe the problem on the "too easy" side is more like "too streamlined." They did make a lot of strides toward giving the bosses of the light-party dungeons more attack patterns and movement, and they are harder than they were before 7.0. But despite being a bit more challenging, nothing has changed about the structure, and outside of a couple specific attacks all of the patterns have been seen before. It's still just three bosses broken up by exactly eight groups of regular mobs that can be grouped up in pairs due to walls, and players still use their AoE rotation on the packs and their boss rotations on the bosses while dodging the patterns they've seen so often they're likely to just guess that a donut will be followed by a circle, 180 will be followed by -180 on the first try.

I definitely agree there needs to be a better balance and more content in the middle grounds (which is honestly exactly what CEs and CLL/Dalriada were before), but they also need to mix things up and stop sticking to the same formulas for everything all the time. Every expansion it's 10 levels across six new areas, six dungeons, and two trials. Every time we have to get the same number of aether currents from quests and finding them to fly. Every patch cycle has three allied societies, which have been further codified into the same combat/gathering/crafting every time. Every major patch has either an alliance raid or a full-party set with the exact same tiers of equipment obtained in the exact same way. And then after adhering to the strict formulas, there's barely any room left for anything new and we get "not enough time or resources to make two versions of Forked Tower." This is the problem from which all other content problems stem.

Put more simply, the issue isn't that they didn't make Vanguard or the Shadow Lord more difficult enough than Ktisis Hyperboreia or Nald'thal, it's that other than the difficulty changes and different boss attack patterns they might as well be the same place despite the dev team having to work just as hard to make all the new visuals and story parts.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

It's silliness like this that is partly responsible for the lack of engaging content.

There is no reason that content that is accessible (easy) cannot also be engaging.

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The person you're quoting also thinks Savage is midcore so I'd take what they're saying with a grain of salt. There are still plenty of people in PF still progging all current floors. If what they were saying was anywhere near true, then there would have just been relcears only since week 1.

In regards to the MMO thing, XIV has always played fast and loose with the MMO concepts. This was always an RPGMMO and that was the audience they tried to draw in. When it came out, people were drawn from other MMOs like WoW that had more FOMO or didn't focus as much on story. The story has stumbled with this expansion which is probably why the more RPG-focused side may be a little less than satisfied. And they're chasing FOMO more whether they intend to or not. So now they're alienating players who didn't like that in other MMOs. But the MMO elements of this game were never the big draw. They were the optional things that players could do but could also decide not to do and still have a rewarding experience.

There have been a couple of articles about the shareholders meeting recently and they did admit that quality has declined and sub numbers are down. So it will be interesting to see what path they decide to take to fix that. Do they continue to try to emulate other MMOs or do they go back to the unique experiences that drew many in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Well given they've made a fairly big effort to make all of these as unengaging as humanly possible, under the guise of all-or-nothing, it's really not difficult to see why they may view themselves as being starved for content, when they've reduced everything to a pathetic husk. -- Granted, this isn't really exclusive to just casual players.

Like, compared many of the casual activities, e.g., crafting now, versus how it was when they actually cared about creating an engaging experience, the difference is night and day, how interactive it was, and what it expected from a player, it's night and day difference if you ask me. Crafting now? Bot infested, and when they try and insert something engaging, it still gets undermined by a half-baked job system for crafters -- and sorry, but yes some of these systems are incredibly boring.

What I find weirder is that people seem to have this idea that all casual players want a complete and utter unengaging experience, and that somehow activities like raiding existing can act as a sufficient enough justification.

What did they expect? Perhaps something that actually actively encouraged them to play the game, and interact with the game even on a fundamental and casual level... Rather than a game that essentially actively scorned them and pushed them away for it.

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And you think that old crafting was less boring than it is now? You think something like the ARR and HW's grind were just more engaging? Cuz they weren't. The only thing they had going for them is that they weren't as accessible as they are now.

Square Enix pivoted hard to make the game incredibly more casual than it used to be, by rewarding you hard through no effort, they dissipated the sense of achievement you would get by doing anything in this game.
This makes it so you can't really play the game endlessly without feeling like it's pointless, unless you play a couple of hours a week, which is literally the definition of a casual player, which is exactly the kind of player CBU3 is doing content for.

They aren't doing massive amounts of content for hardcore players, if they were really pivoting towards them, the dungeons, alliance raids and OC would all be 1000% more punishing.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

The way I view much of the content and systems in this game currently is...

They are currently maintained not with any specific demographic in mind, but simply for the sake of hitting some arbitrary system feature quota, and this isn't really entirely off-brand either... It's just there existing so they can say they have this feature without actually routinely updating and refreshing it, e.g., Grand Companies.

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Agreed. It feels like the design process is as imaginative as filling out the Island Sanctuary workshop schedule.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

And you think that old crafting was less boring than it is now? You think something like the ARR and HW's grind were just more engaging? Cuz they weren't. The only thing they had going for them is that they weren't as accessible as they are now.

Square Enix pivoted hard to make the game incredibly more casual than it used to be, by rewarding you hard through no effort, they dissipated the sense of achievement you would get by doing anything in this game.
This makes it so you can't really play the game endlessly without feeling like it's pointless, unless you play a couple of hours a week, which is literally the definition of a casual player, which is exactly the kind of player CBU3 is doing content for.

They aren't doing massive amounts of content for hardcore players, if they were really pivoting towards them, the dungeons, alliance raids and OC would all be 1000% more punishing.

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The only meaningful reward that any game can provide is being interesting to play.

Those who equate "interesting" with "hard" are a tiny minority.

It's puzzling to me that the same crowd who complain that "this is supposed to be an MMO" are also the ones that lobby hardest to make FF14 a raid simulator.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

And you think that old crafting was less boring than it is now? You think something like the ARR and HW's grind were just more engaging? Cuz they weren't. The only thing they had going for them is that they weren't as accessible as they are now.

Square Enix pivoted hard to make the game incredibly more casual than it used to be, by rewarding you hard through no effort, they dissipated the sense of achievement you would get by doing anything in this game.
This makes it so you can't really play the game endlessly without feeling like it's pointless, unless you play a couple of hours a week, which is literally the definition of a casual player, which is exactly the kind of player CBU3 is doing content for.

They aren't doing massive amounts of content for hardcore players, if they were really pivoting towards them, the dungeons, alliance raids and OC would all be 1000% more punishing.

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Then you clearly didn't interact with it very much, it had you doing a wide array of content, you had abilities that placed a great deal of RNG control in your hands, e.g., the Whistle While You Work system, which was a suite of abilities in itself, which allowed you to do recipes a lot more creatively, the general recipes also had you engaging far more too, and were more diversely spread than just the simple... 4 folklore, 2 tome items. Needn't get started on the rework to innovation and inner quiet, which has largely turned the control stat into a mess (Depending on HQ contribution, you could find yourself having a lot of redundant stat, something that Ceremonial gear encountered, . Gear progression in ARR and HW was a lot better than it is now, since it actually had a sense of deep character progression, versus the simple... "Go out and scrip it bro". Quit the game for 16 months? No problem, go do one of the old Custom delivery clients, and there you go, all caught up in the space of 20 minutes.

You can honestly call it what you want, I frankly don't care, people simple want a reason to play the game, that gave a reason, as it stands, this game tries to give more reasons to not play it, than what it does to actually play it.

I don't really think they are doing content for anyone, the pace with which the game does content, and the depth that it releases it at, is abysmal at best, even for those that can only play for a couple hours weekly. As my schedule currently stands, I am that player -- and I am bored out of my mind.

Like I have suggested several times, they aren't really doing massive amounts of content for anyone. The only thing they are doing is creating feature and system quotas with nobody -- or nothing -- in mind. The only issue I take is that somehow, some people seem to believe that the state of this game is defensible because we have raids as a means of 'challenging and engaging yourself'.

Like I also said in my initial post... People were actually wanting -- and expecting to have a reason to play the game.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The only meaningful reward that any game can provide is being interesting to play.

Those who equate "interesting" with "hard" are a tiny minority.

It's puzzling to me that the same crowd who complain that "this is supposed to be an MMO" are also the ones that lobby hardest to make FF14 a raid simulator.

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The only meaningful reward an MMO can give you is that you are playing with a lot of people and making a community based on the content you play. The only people who successfully do that in this game are roleplayers and raiders, because it's the only type of content where you need to be social to succeed.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

The only meaningful reward an MMO can give you is that you are playing with a lot of people and making a community based on the content you play. The only people who successfully do that in this game are roleplayers and raiders, because it's the only type of content where you need to be social to succeed.

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I completely disagree, as apparently does SE.

"Social" means different things to different people, and the only meaningful measure of "success" in any game is that you are enjoying the game.

If all FFXIV means to you is a source of raiding content that has to be cleared, then yes, you need to coordinate with other people. But there needn't be anything remotely "social" about it; it's purely transactional.

In a story-based MMO, you can watch the movie on your own or in a theatre with others. Anyone who uses the Market Board is participating in the multiplayer aspect.

Bro not even the healer strike got to them, and it was covered in content creator videos and major blog articles. Also small dev company so you have to cut them some slack.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I completely disagree, as apparently does SE.

"Social" means different things to different people, and the only meaningful measure of "success" in any game is that you are enjoying the game.

If all FFXIV means to you is a source of raiding content that has to be cleared, then yes, you need to coordinate with other people. But there needn't be anything remotely "social" about it; it's purely transactional.

In a story-based MMO, you can watch the movie on your own or in a theatre with others. Anyone who uses the Market Board is participating in the multiplayer aspect.

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Social as in I need to interact with you in order to play the game. In non-raiding content I don't need to talk to you to play the game, some content even disables your ability to communicate when you play (Crystalline Conflict).