OC is a soulless cash grab designed for sub retention and is not fun

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Yes it's designed for sub retention. Because players cried out for something to retain their sub. They were saying there was nothing to do and that they were unhappy being asked to play other games.

I agree this is an issue. However, people complained when there was downtime back in Eureka. There were a lot of people that only play 2 hours a day after work and were unhappy that 50% of that was downtime. SE has to choose who to please here. We just have to resist the temptation to do FATEs and CEs in order to do other things like gold farm, treasure or FT. For me, that will be when I've leveled all the Phantom jobs I can.

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Generally speaking, gold farm and silver farm don't really intersect. Either you are doing CE/Fates and getting silver or are slaughtering groups of random enemies for gold. You aren't going to do both. A player isn't really missing out by doing one over the other. Honestly, it might as well be two completely different "events" in the zone as far as I am concerned.

And for some people, I don't know what the big shock is that an MMO is grindy. If you want something beyond just the relic (OC) then you are likely grinding phantom jobs and gear upgrades to do Forked Tower. If you want something beyond the DoH/L relic (Cosmic Exploration) then you are likely grinding for days to earn titles and mounts. Welcome to MMOs (not directed at Jeeqbit).

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Maybe stop being so biased? Option 1 at least try to give us new content (field operation), whether it's a hit or not is different discussion. Meanwhile in option 2 you're stuck doing fate farm on old zones and duty finder that you already done daily anyway (or maybe deep dungeon, idk, but they are equally, if not more, unfun amd tedious)

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Option 1 gave us fates operation, not field operation. The day option 1 becomes something more engaging, then the comparison may actually start being balanced between the two.
But what does speak volumes though, that you do not like the dozens of different activities that do reward tomes (which includes OC content BTW so why are you even complaining about it?), or that I do not like one specific type of content (fates)? Should I start asking the devs to make relics only obtainable through pvp just to piss off the remainder of the audience?

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It's not a FATE train, but a CE train. There's a difference because CEs are significantly more fun and threatening than dungeon bosses.

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CE's appreciation or dislike notwithstanding, what do you think happens between said CEs?

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It's not a FATE train, but a CE train. There's a difference because CEs are significantly more fun and threatening than dungeon bosses.

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Lets not put these on a pedestal, aye?
I'd say they are pretty much on par to dungeon bosses. Dungeon bosses can also kill you very easily if you do not adhere to their mechanics.
As a WHM without a group I typically have no issues staying alive on my own in CE, once I know the mechanics.

The only real difference is that in CE, the vuln stacks do not expire, so there is a hard cap on how much you can gimp before you keel over and reset them stacks. (Unless tank, apparently :'D)

Still, with a truckload of players, even if you are not in a group, people will pick you back up and that'll be the end of it. Technically you can muddle through and die 10x w/o any consequences.... quite the opposite, achievement hunters will probably thank you for being rez fodder. I've seen people rage that others interfere with rezzes because they were gunning for some achievement. *chuckles*

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Originally Posted by Valence

CE's appreciation or dislike notwithstanding, what do you think happens between said CEs?

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Oh, I know that one:
Frantically mashing "return", stalking the map in Pylon teleport mode and when a FATE pops, feeding your mount of choice as much Nitrous Oxide as humanly possible (poor Torgal) to desperately try to reach it in order to get 3-4 hits in to get gold... eh.. who am I kidding. W/o a group you'll get silver 80% of the time.

Rinse repeat until the next CE spawns.

CEs were so well designed and fun that they certainly don't suffer from what cripples dungeon design. They certainly don't encourage tank turtling, they certainly don't count on healers to be there to raise each other or the people that chose to play DPS instead. They certainly don't reproduce the same boring boss arenas with the same boring twitchy memory mechanics.
But most of all CEs certainly don't break the game's display limits by shoving 72 players into the same cramped boss arena either.

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Originally Posted by Valence

CEs were so well designed and fun that they certainly don't suffer from what cripples dungeon design. They certainly don't encourage tank turtling, they certainly don't count on healers to be there to raise each other or the people that chose to play DPS instead. They certainly don't reproduce the same boring boss arenas with the same boring twitchy memory mechanics.
But most of all CEs certainly don't break the game's display limits by shoving 72 players into the same cramped boss arena either.

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You are playing a classic MMO with the Tank-Healer-DPS trinity. Of course encounters will be designed in a way that encourages the presence of all three roles. Anything else would be nonsensical, this isn't Guild Wars.

I had, surprisingly, no technical problems whatsoever. Not even unusual amounts of lag. Didn't feel much different than the 24 man alliance dungeons.
Then again I did 25man raids in WoW for nearly a decade, so I am used to having many folks on the screen. Something I always missed in 8man savage.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

I'd say they are pretty much on par to dungeon bosses. Dungeon bosses can also kill you very easily if you do not adhere to their mechanics.

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As a DPS/healer. But really, the mechanics are much easier to read because they are designed for MSQ players that return > do MSQ > quit.

The mechanics in Occult are genuinely harder to figure out and read even if you're used to just looking for casts names or environmental tells. In fact I would say a natural reaction to CEs when you first do them is that the mechanics feel random and unintuitive. It's honestly taken me ages to figure some of them out fully. Which isn't the case with dungeons normally. And this is really their intention with Dawntrail in general.

Another big difference is that in a lot of CEs you have to do this constantly. If your mechanic concentration lapses for a moment, you get hit. In most dungeon fights there's a lot of downtime where you can just actually focus on your rotation. Almost the only exception I can think of at the moment is the first Stayborough boss which is a choice between mechanics and getting zombified in most cases.

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As a WHM without a group I typically have no issues staying alive on my own in CE, once I know the mechanics.

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Same, but even despite that, I would say it's still a constant battle to have that flawless run even when you know the mechanics.

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The only real difference is that in CE, the vuln stacks do not expire, so there is a hard cap on how much you can gimp before you keel over and reset them stacks. (Unless tank, apparently :'D)

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Tanks can take a lot but if they fail too many mechanics they will eventually go down as well. Getting 9 stacks is pretty easy but after that, with no mit or building up more it often gets them. I had some tanks in my party the other day that didn't know a single mechanic and they eventually went down.

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Originally Posted by Valence

they certainly don't count on healers to be there to raise each other or the people that chose to play DPS instead.

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Honestly, if they didn't rely on resurrection as part of the design, they'd be accused of the same things they were in Endwalker savage design - mechanics that make the healer less useful. Or what is supposed to be the casual cycle to farm rewards gains worse stakes than BA and similar to Criterion Savage. I suppose they could have made the rez only work for Phantom Jobs maybe because those should at least be useful.

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But most of all CEs certainly don't break the game's display limits by shoving 72 players into the same cramped boss arena either.

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Hasn't been an issue for me personally.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

In fact I would say a natural reaction to CEs when you first do them is that the mechanics feel random and unintuitive..

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I almost always play as healer. I don't like DPS designs much in XIV. Sometimes I play Batman .. erm Dork Knight too. :D

True but I also have that in dungeons or normal raids, really.
Of the current 8man raid, I still have no clue why one of the bosses sometimes petrifies you and sometimes doesn't. *shrug*

Ofc going in with the trust buddies negates that, because you can play lemming and learn that way. Just like you can in e.g.: the Berserker CE or oftentimes in Raids/Trials. :'D

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Another big difference is that in a lot of CEs you have to do this constantly. If your mechanic concentration lapses for a moment, you get hit.

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On that one I have to agree. Mechanical density is definitely higher. Some feel like you are constantly on the move. Ofc such a design is much easier to pull off with many players as opposed to just 4.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Same, but even despite that, I would say it's still a constant battle to have that flawless run even when you know the mechanics.

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Flawless as in no vuln stacks? Bit of a crap-shoot at times. Sometimes you just stand in the wrong position and have not enough time to react, especially if dash is already on cooldown. Luckily, a vuln stack isn't the end of the world as a healer. Though bosses are pretty static, so with enough attempts you eventually know where the safe spots are and when.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Honestly, if they didn't rely on resurrection as part of the design

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lets be real, man: completion rate would go completely into the crapper. :'D
Even as an experienced ex raider I needed to see the CEs a few times to not feel overwhelmed.
This is supposed to be the causal side of the content, so naturally they have to be lenient on things like in-combat rezzes and zerk timers.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Option 1 gave us fates operation, not field operation. The day option 1 becomes something more engaging, then the comparison may actually start being balanced between the two.
But what does speak volumes though, that you do not like the dozens of different activities that do reward tomes (which includes OC content BTW so why are you even complaining about it?), or that I do not like one specific type of content (fates)? Should I start asking the devs to make relics only obtainable through pvp just to piss off the remainder of the audience?

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It baffles me how you missed the context and point entirely. People hate EW tomestone relic because it literally provides nothing new. You can passively progress just by doing DF, for example.
Also I was talking EW when mentioning the tome relic, not DT. I have no problem with current step in OC which includes both atma and tome grind because they still give us new content.

"Dozens of activities" lol

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Originally Posted by Granyala

You are playing a classic MMO with the Tank-Healer-DPS trinity. Of course encounters will be designed in a way that encourages the presence of all three roles. Anything else would be nonsensical, this isn't Guild Wars.

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I think you probably missed the irony, or I did a poor job at explaining it. If the trinity was actually working you wouldn't have such discrepancies between roles (especially one), but then again, it's because their pve model has grown so distant from the actual requirements of a trinity system that it just breaks at the seams or just becomes completely irrelevant. It shows here even more than in classic casual due to the lack of party restrictions and it's ironic in a way that it actually shows how the trinity is barely enforced at this point only by DF party restrictions.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

I had, surprisingly, no technical problems whatsoever. Not even unusual amounts of lag. Didn't feel much different than the 24 man alliance dungeons.
Then again I did 25man raids in WoW for nearly a decade, so I am used to having many folks on the screen. Something I always missed in 8man savage.

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It's not about technical problems or lag, it's about the display limits of the game. The game will display a lot less than 70+ entities. It's even funnier in the CE with all the statues where they dramatically increase the model count, therefore decreasing even more what's displayed on screen. And where it becomes especially hilarious is when a player with an important mechanic marker isn't displayed, then neither is the marker. Shenanigans ensue.

And then there is the rotating AoEs CE where the telegraphs/casts don't even match the snapshot. Jury's still out on what's causing this, fortunately you can choose not to engage with the actual mechanic visual cues and instead stand where they do spawn since they'll never end up resolving there at the end. Chef's kiss gamedesign right there: "our engine is so shit that if you're smart you can actually find a way not to engage with said mechanics".