FRU has been cleared without Tanks!

Is that not arguably worse for the healer?

At least with titan if a party chose to exclude the tank you knew upfront. A healer has to play the roulette of “am I going to contribute to my party today”

Like maybe I’m just weird but I’d genuinely rather have the roulette pop and go “sorry tank is of above average competency your participation is not needed” then figure out half way into the first pull that I’m not needed

Titan egi tanking required about as much skill as no healer casual content, it’s a bit rich to pass one off as “find worse players” when there 100% were parties back then doing two tank clears because people didn’t feel comfortable learning titan egi or the SMN didn’t want the responsibility. Were those tanks excluded supposed to just find worse players willing to do tank strats despite them actually being worse than titan egi

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Is that not arguably worse for the healer?

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Depends on your perspective.

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At least with titan if a party chose to exclude the tank you knew upfront. A healer has to play the roulette of “am I going to contribute to my party today”

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I mean, a healer is always going to contribute at the very least by doing damage, so it shouldn't be a case of whether you are going to contribute or not, it is a matter of how much you need to contribute.

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Like maybe I’m just weird but I’d genuinely rather have the roulette pop and go “sorry tank is of above average competency your participation is not needed” then figure out half way into the first pull that I’m not needed

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With random groups, anything can happen, the DPS might do a dumb and die, or even the tank has a lapse of judgement. Your role as a healer then is to smooth out the run incase anything like that happens.

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Titan egi tanking required about as much skill as no healer casual content, it’s a bit rich to pass one off as “find worse players” when there 100% were parties back then doing two tank clears because people didn’t feel comfortable learning titan egi or the SMN didn’t want the responsibility. Were those tanks excluded supposed to just find worse players willing to do tank strats despite them actually being worse than titan egi

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Egi tanking was, stick Titan in one spot and just baby him with heals, both from the SMN (Sustain) and healers (remembering, the AoE heals did affect the pets at this time). They already took less damage just for being an Egi and they didn't have to worry about the tank buster deleting them just because they didn't have the stacks. It was about as easy as you could make it. You also know that, given time, it would have become the norm. The tank players who were excluded would have then been told to play DPS or Healer. As for a SMN who didn't want to, you get a second SMN who did, the first SMN would then be a DPS SMN, the second the tank SMN.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Depends on your perspective.
I mean, a healer is always going to contribute at the very least by doing damage, so it shouldn't be a case of whether you are going to contribute or not, it is a matter of how much you need to contribute.

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When it's the only contribution they're giving? This is why Healers are actually the LEAST played job. Because it's BORING to press one button over and over. I've played even AST/SCH in dungeons and when you're paired with the likes of WAR? You sit there and just DPS because the WAR has all the tools to keep themselves alive without fail. Same could be said of PLD/GNB to an extent. If your healing isn't needed, then healing is not a contributor - which is the whole point of the Role's existence.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

With random groups, anything can happen, the DPS might do a dumb and die, or even the tank has a lapse of judgement. Your role as a healer then is to smooth out the run incase anything like that happens.

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Yeah? That's where we're further shoved into this "babysitting" role. Where if something actually does go horribly wrong, we actually get agency. You can talk about this from Dungeons all the way to Savage: Healers are the "In Case of Emergency, Break Glass" equivalent. But if for some reason your DF runs don't have this? Then they're back to the aforementioned above.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Egi tanking was, stick Titan in one spot and just baby him with heals, both from the SMN (Sustain) and healers (remembering, the AoE heals did affect the pets at this time). They already took less damage just for being an Egi and they didn't have to worry about the tank buster deleting them just because they didn't have the stacks. It was about as easy as you could make it. You also know that, given time, it would have become the norm. The tank players who were excluded would have then been told to play DPS or Healer. As for a SMN who didn't want to, you get a second SMN who did, the first SMN would then be a DPS SMN, the second the tank SMN.

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Then tell me how this equates to how Healers should just "Play a DPS or Tank"? If people make the decision to make pre-mades, then they will do so and push this, making DF Qs longer because of the "optimization". If anything it's akin to doing the path of least resistance which is a constant for this game whenever it comes to content, no matter how you shake your head at it.

Also for the record, you needed an equally skilled SMN to pull of Titan Egi tank back then because if your pet management was off? Titan would eat the dust and you'd be looking closer to a wipe - same for healers.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

When it's the only contribution they're giving? This is why Healers are actually the LEAST played job. Because it's BORING to press one button over and over...

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Gameplay is a separate issue I have already stated is something that need work, but isn't the reason healers get left out.

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I've played even AST/SCH in dungeons and when you're paired with the likes of WAR? You sit there and just DPS because the WAR has all the tools to keep themselves alive without fail. Same could be said of PLD/GNB to an extent. If your healing isn't needed, then healing is not a contributor - which is the whole point of the Role's existence.

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So, Warrior, and to a lesser extent PLD and GNB have too much healing it invalidates your role. So it is the environment the healer is trying to be apart of that makes you feel not required. Which is exactly what I have been saying.

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Yeah? That's where we're further shoved into this "babysitting" role. Where if something actually does go horribly wrong, we actually get agency. You can talk about this from Dungeons all the way to Savage: Healers are the "In Case of Emergency, Break Glass" equivalent. But if for some reason your DF runs don't have this? Then they're back to the aforementioned above.

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So, hypothetical, all healing is gone from all other jobs, healers are the only ones who heal. Aren't you then babysitting everyone else? The role is quite literally look after everyone else's HP. Or, is it only baby sitting if someone makes a mistake, which can still happen in a scenario where you have more healing requirement.

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Then tell me how this equates to how Healers should just "Play a DPS or Tank"?

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It doesn't, that is the point. Different scenarios with different outcomes.

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If people make the decision to make pre-mades, then they will do so and push this, making DF Qs longer because of the "optimization". If anything it's akin to doing the path of least resistance which is a constant for this game whenever it comes to content, no matter how you shake your head at it.

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But that hasn't happened. Those who run with no healer probably ran with a healer in the past and changed it up. They weren't queuing into the DF so no change in numbers there. But, as I said, healers are still useful in DF to smooth things out.

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Also for the record, you needed an equally skilled SMN to pull of Titan Egi tank back then because if your pet management was off? Titan would eat the dust and you'd be looking closer to a wipe - same for healers.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjPiQ2Q_bCQ

SMN with Vit accessories, place him where the tank would normally sit, babysit his HP. Easy. No worries about tank swaps, no worries about the tanks cleaving each other before, during or after the swap, dps/healers know where not to stand etc. It was just all around easier.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Gameplay is a separate issue I have already stated is something that need work, but isn't the reason healers get left out.


But that hasn't happened. Those who run with no healer probably ran with a healer in the past and changed it up. They weren't queuing into the DF so no change in numbers there. But, as I said, healers are still useful in DF to smooth things out.

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So your argument here still basically boils down to “the titan egi clear is meaningful exclusion of tanks because ex is done through PF and PF has the ability to willfully choose to exclude classes while healerless casual content isn’t meaningful exclusion of healers because most casual content is done through DF and DF enforces a healer onto the party even if they aren’t needed and feel like a waste of space and because of this enforced DF the amount of people who actually organise healerless clears will never be a meaningful amount even though it would actually be easier if the system allowed it”

Do you not see how that’s the same thing except one is poorly hidden by the flawed system enforcing it? Would you have liked to be on JP and do ramuh ex in DF and have your DPS go “stay in DPS stance and don’t use agro moves titan is tanking” when you queued in as a tank? Because that’s exactly what healers deal with now

Congratulations to the team achieving this. Mad respect.
People crying about the holy trinity of DPS, Healer and Tank falling apart have probably never seen an on content Ultimate or Savage fight from the inside.
The average playerbase cant pull this off. The average playerbase cant even soloheal sphene without wiping half of the time. There is no need to worry boys. Healers and Tanks will still be needed in the future. :)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You are excluded if you don’t play the most powerful class

Oh you mean like PCT, or SCH or AST

Or you get excluded if you play bad classes

Oh you mean like SMN, and MCH, and PLD and MNK many times, or WHM and SGE

Every class in 14 is the same and they still can’t balance them

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Do you mean this? : https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/59?boss=1074
Or maybe this? : https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/59?boss=1077
I am sure it's this one: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/62?boss=93 right?
no wait!!! It's this one: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/62?boss=95 or maybe: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...93&class=Tanks

The balance is not perfect, yes, the game can definitely be improved, but I never saw anyone being excluded/ kicked playing any of those bad classes that you are mentioning.

Also the examples you give were probably true at some point, but they aren't currently.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

Do you mean this? : https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/59?boss=1074
Or maybe this? : https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/59?boss=1077
I am sure it's this one: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/62?boss=93 right?
no wait!!! It's this one: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/62?boss=95 or maybe: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...93&class=Tanks

The balance is not perfect, yes, the game can definitely be improved, but I never saw anyone being excluded/ kicked playing any of those bad classes that you are mentioning.

Also the examples you give were probably true at some point, but they aren't currently.

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I love how you linked UWU of all fights but not the obvious fight that anyone can figure out when I’m saying SMN is getting excluded

Like who cares about the balance of UWU

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Originally Posted by Saraide

They have buffed healing, mitigation and shields to high heaven and this is the result. It's the reason why they feel like they have to turn everything into body checks because if they dont we will just kitchen sink through it.

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This is "only" the result because they did not actually create an environment where those upgrades were made for. (i.e. damage being so sparse that you can essentially just kitchensink as is rather than doing something like Emerald Weapon EX where every mechanic is paired with a heavy-hitting buster so you actually need to spread your CDs)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I love how you linked UWU of all fights but not the obvious fight that anyone can figure out when I’m saying SMN is getting excluded

Like who cares about the balance of UWU

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And in which fight is SMN being excluded? I am currently progging FRU, and I have never seen any SMN being kicked or told to leave, but do please enlighten me: which fight are you progging and you saw this behaviour taking place?

Also, you either care about overall balance or not talk shit 24/7 saying you care about the game and its balance state. Do you just pick whatever suits you and your biased narrative that has very little to do with reality and the actual state of the game?