Are Ultimates a major contributor to Job Design issues?

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Originally Posted by Valence

Statics weren't much better off because Bonds 3 was a shit mechanic and people kept dying to it way too much. But the reason people failed was because of the DDR, not because of healing. Everybody is on the middle platform for Bonds 3 and the little cleaves before it, so it's not a matter of healing and mitigation range. Bonds 3 was one of the biggest blockers for the simple reason that it was a body check and Dividing Wings coming right after could barely be salvaged with a timed healer LB3 in the case of casualties (not always possible), since this mechanic was also a body check. This part had little to do with healing/mitigation.



Hector had everybody on the left platform for Bonds 1.
If you mean for Dividing Wings 2 I do not remember having a single situation with 2 healers on the same side platform. We always had one on the left, and one on the right. It is possible all the statics I did it with did some prio, I do not remember at all. If you're complaining that this is too hard to do in PF, then again, this isn't a problem of healing and mitigation range, but a DDR mechanical problem.

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My dude, who was even talking about Bonds 1? Was it ever mentioned? at all? Why would you even discuss how Bonds 1 was solved when the entire conversation was about Dividing Wings 2 which came after Bonds 3?

For Bonds 1, you HAD to be on the same platform because you had spread into either partner or role. You don't have any idea what you are talking about after all, are you? Pfff figures

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

My dude, who was even talking about Bonds 1? Was it ever mentioned? at all? Why would you even discuss how Bonds 1 was solved when the entire conversation was about Dividing Wings 2 which came after Bonds 3?

For Bonds 1, you HAD to be on the same platform because you had spread into either partner or role. You don't have any idea what you are talking about after all, are you? Pfff figures

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Nothing was mentioned about what specific mechanic was being discussed in the first replies, and only that the side platforms were. If I missed a mention somewhere then I apologize.
Bonds 1 also happens over the side platforms with the whole party/LPs. I just wanted to make sure because Hector was also mentioned, and a lot of people still preferred the 2 platform strat for it as they considered the 1 platform strat to be "too risky especially in PF", notably within the first month of release. I think you're the one being confused here, or maybe you didn't play the tier on release? Recheck guides for the fight and you'll see that Bonds 1 can be solved over 2 platforms as well, which people eventually started to dismiss past a point.
-> I just checked your profile actually, you cleared the fight in October, 3 months after release... no wonder.

You'll be free to call me whatever scrub or filthy casual that has no idea what they're talking about next tier since I'm retiring from savage, but until now, unfortunately, yes, I have done Anabaseios savage at release...

( did you just assume my gender? )

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Originally Posted by Valence

Nothing was mentioned about what specific mechanic was being discussed in the first replies, and only that the side platforms were. If I missed a mention somewhere then I apologize.
Bonds 1 also happens over the side platforms with the whole party/LPs. I just wanted to make sure because Hector was also mentioned, and a lot of people still preferred the 2 platform strat for it as they considered the 1 platform strat to be "too risky especially in PF", notably within the first month of release. I think you're the one being confused here, or maybe you didn't play the tier on release? Recheck guides for the fight and you'll see that Bonds 1 can be solved over 2 platforms as well, which people eventually started to dismiss past a point.
-> I just checked your profile actually, you cleared the fight in October, 3 months after release... no wonder.

You'll be free to call me whatever scrub or filthy casual that has no idea what they're talking about next tier since I'm retiring from savage, but until now, unfortunately, yes, I have done Anabaseios savage at release...

( did you just assume my gender? )

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Then you probably can't read to save your life if it mattered because as soon as specific examples were provided nothing about Bonds 1 was ever brought up.

Also if you wish to know why I have cleared so slow is because I never gave a shit about clearing week 1 (I still don't) also I was busy playing BG3 which was released in August and which was far above anything ff14 was providing for me. In any case, the point still stands. You are just an average forum poster, with little understanding of the matter but talking as if you figured everything out. So sit down and be quiet.

I'm not accusing you of being a bad player, or for clearing later. If anything having problems with the fight 3 months later with overgear in PF also speaks quite a lot about PF, and since I haven't PFed as much as you seem to have, I can only defer to you as the problems that PF can bring up. This is why I'm saying this isn't a problem of healing and mitigation range, but a problem of DDR and body checks, especially for Bonds 3 into Dividing Wings 2.

The reason you weren't even aware of this Bonds 1 strat is precisely because you did the fight late. This is the whole point of me checking when you did it, which explains your ignorance on the matter.

More than anything, I had an inkling that range extension initially happened because of TOP (and maybe DSR too? CMIIW). I never done TOP myself, but I recall watching a few clips of the fight where it shows a hitbox:arena ratio being almost as bad as P7S and seeing complaints about how their raidwide buffs couldn't reach everybody. Those same complaints also arises in P8S where at 4 minute mark raidbuff window, one from two possible timeline would result in half of the parties being forced out to the corners where they won't be hit by anything that's cast from the opposite corner. Fast forward to 6.3, the 2nd wave of range extension happens. It was also the same patch when TOP was released. All of which happens before Anabaseios was even a thing.

Now as to why would they also extend that to mitigations and some heal actions, I have no friggin' clue. Probably the same line of thinking when they design follow-up buttons in DT where some works (i.e. PLD Blade of Honor and DRK's Disesteem) and then they had this grand idea to extend the same gesture to every single job, not understanding or unaware how it won't necessarily feel as good, especially i.e. on jobs like SCH's Chain > Baneful Impaction and RDM's Embolden > Vice of Thorn (have fun overwriting each other should you are paired with dupe jobs lol, which don't typically happen outside EX/Savage+).

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Originally Posted by Valence

DDR scripted dances suck for replayability and shelf life.

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Mao quotes for TRUTH!

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

Tbh you dont balance around Dungeons or anything else, you Balance around Savage/Ultimates and maybe ex Trials, where your Endgamerotation and everything else really matters so i would say yes

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This is good (to a degree) general advise for say, Overwatch 2 or so. Games where the gameplay and the context are fundamentally the same between all tiers of play.

But that's not so much true in MMORPGs, in particular in a design such as these. Dungeon gameplay and Savage gameplay has very little in common, even before you get into the differences between the types of players that have each as their highest level of gameplay they engage with. You don't get matchmade into an Ultimate by the DF because you do too well in Dungeon runs is what I'm saying, basically. The contents aren't part of one broad spectrum.

The following all, ideally, need seperate class design consideration:

* Dungeons
* Normal Trials+Raids
* Extreme+Savage
* Criterion Savage
* Ultimates
* Solo combat (to a very minor degree, that should be trivially fulfilled by the type of class design FFXIV uses)

I excluded PvP since that has classes which are fully distinct from the PvE ones.

The thing is, you can't just look at ultimates. If you balance for that, you cannot also balance for say, Extreme Trials. The fights are just too distinct in their basic design. But you will have plenty players who will never ever ever look into Ultimates, and don't they deserve a balanced class setup, too?

My mind is so m made up on this that I struggled to even bother to read the post, but I'm obliged to fit reasons of self respect.
I'm glad to say that the OP has earned my stamp of approval and that can confirm their thinking to be correct thinking.
High end is everything that is wrong with this game. I'm not being ironic. It is all the fault of ultimates etc.
No casual player cared about any of the job issues. If the job has a problem then they just played it badly, but they played it anyway, and even before ShBs idiotification of casual content, you still wouldn't see a wipe.
But now the high end player is the voice OVERWHELMING majority. I hear chat of all sorts, but in game 'noone is talking about the jobs, because quietly they are all thinking "what I'm playing is working for savage right now, and my priority is not upsetting that until I've cleared the next tier now. And the next, and the next... and...I'm on light. I'm in a recruiting FC. There are no sprouts coming through! Not ever!
There are no casual players, who run social content, and relish that content.
It just highend sweats. I've got a goal. Get in get out. If r lucky I'll say hi. You probably won't see me jumping with joy in the instance because it doesn't optimise anything, and you sure as ff L won't see me emoting.
All the casuals have already left. The only voice still logging in now is high end.

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

My mind is so m made up on this that I struggled to even bother to read the post, but I'm obliged to fit reasons of self respect.
I'm glad to say that the OP has earned my stamp of approval and that can confirm their thinking to be correct thinking.
High end is everything that is wrong with this game. I'm not being ironic. It is all the fault of ultimates etc.
No casual player cared about any of the job issues. If the job has a problem then they just played it badly, but they played it anyway, and even before ShBs idiotification of casual content, you still wouldn't see a wipe.
But now the high end player is the voice OVERWHELMING majority. I hear chat of all sorts, but in game 'noone is talking about the jobs, because quietly they are all thinking "what I'm playing is working for savage right now, and my priority is not upsetting that until I've cleared the next tier now. And the next, and the next... and...I'm on light. I'm in a recruiting FC. There are no sprouts coming through! Not ever!
There are no casual players, who run social content, and relish that content.
It just highend sweats. I've got a goal. Get in get out. If r lucky I'll say hi. You probably won't see me jumping with joy in the instance because it doesn't optimise anything, and you sure as ff L won't see me emoting.
All the casuals have already left. The only voice still logging in now is high end.

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This is a bit disingenuous but I do agree that job and encounter design have basically been co-opted by parsewhore interests for years now.

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Originally Posted by Red-thunder

This is a bit disingenuous but I do agree that job and encounter design have basically been co-opted by parsewhore interests for years now.

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I wish it were disengenuous. It's not and I have no hope of feeling like I have something socially in common with the people people I play with. It's hard to put a finger on.

BUT THE VIBE HAS CHANGED. THAT VIBE IS EVERYWHERE AND IT'S ALL THERE IS.
Everyone is down to business.
Everyone is just passing through.
And I suspect it's savage that EVERYONE is just passing through to.

It's infected me to.
If I find myself in an MSQ roul instance because of mentor, and there isn't a single real sprout... then like F am I going to bother to even say hi. I'm not happy. I'm ea
way too pissed. And I won't apologise.
If my fellow non sprout MSQ players don't like the vibe, they will have to fix that themselves by coming to this forum to make their own complaint like I've now had to. They are welcome to make their own guess as to why it's so unfriendly but I'm handing SQX the answer on a plate here.

I run Mentor not to help as should be the case, but because it's the 1 roul left I dint find a guaranteed bore. At least I might occasionally get Satasha with 2 real sprouts that act like they are excited to be there. I'm not a sociopath narcissist high end player, and so it does have an effect on me. I have high empathy. I can tell from a thousand subtle clues in how someone plays, how they react how they move how they chat, and if all those queues and many more e missing, if the people I'm with are having honest fun. And are happy to be there with me.

I know the thousand things that SQX still haven't fixed that needlessly incentivise those instances.
It's the set piece of a sprouts entire first expansion and there is never even a death! Not even a death! Not EVER.

...oh I should add. Noone else said hi either. I'm nearly always the first person saying hello when hellos are said.
But saying hi doesn't optimise or speed run anything.