Rphys: why slow walk casts (ala pvp) aren't a solution

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

1. Yeah which is why I'm not against them taking inspiration from how other MMOs do archer design. Most of the best MMOs arent original they steal ideas and make them better, self referencing is how we get the 90-100 traits upgrades and not new abilities. It's because you are starting to act dismissive of people for not being true Phys range players or whatever, all opinions matter on job design.

2. Magical ranged isn't defined by casts, SMN has no casts, RDM has short casts followed by instant casts. Casting isn't really an identity of a role in this game, there's jobs where it's an identity like BLM but no role is really caster. Really if you think magical ranged should be casters and Phys ranged shouldn't I'm sorry but the Devs don't agree, they have made it clear.

3. Like I said I don't have a super strong opinion on it and I think Phys range has way more problems in its core. Adding cast times and upping damage won't fix Phys range they are at their core a role that has no identity.
I don't think if cast times were added to a Phys range it would do much but id prefer CBU3 to actually experiment with the role more instead of leaving it in its current state. I don't think increasing damage or buffs will fix the role at all I just think DNC and BRD are badly designed while machinist the best designed but not quite there yet.
You are using dismissive language and techniques in conversations that people often use to dismiss other opinions, you may or may not be doing it intentionally but it seems that way.

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I can act dismissive on people that want to turn a role into something it's not. It's been the exact same song with melee dps mains being annoyed when people not playing or maining the job show up and tell them how the role would be better if it looked like something entirely different. This twofold with the fact that it would essentially be asking the people that enjoy the model to eat the crow and either like the changes or leave. So, say with this in mind, is this a bad thing to be dismissive about that kind of push? I'm sorry but the very enjoyment of the game for me right now is being directly threatened by people that for some of them don't even main the role, so excuse me if i'm being a little irritated, to say the least?

You're definitely right, the devs seem to have dropped the ball with casters when they made SMN into a mockery of rphys though. And the worst thing is I suspect they actually do think that the couple of casts they left on the job every minute still justifies calling it a caster. It is indeed true that so far, they seem for example to still consider positionals an integral part of melee DPS, when they don't seem to consider cast times part of caster DPS anymore. Also side note on RDM, if you think that doublecast doesn't make them casters I don't know what to say. o:

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Originally Posted by Connor

Maybe it’s just an issue with me forgetting not everyone was there since the very start (that isn’t meant as a slight either just an observation). Bard at 2.0 release tragically lost its access to Conjurer subclassing and gained Lancer / Pugilist subclassing instead. It had three spells at the time; Mage’s Ballad, Army’s Paeon and Foe’s Requiem. Songs was pretty much the only thing it had going on at that point besides hitting DoTs as required. They inflicted a 25% damage reduction on the Bard whilst singing which necessitated careful management of uptime to account for bursts etc. The damage reduction was absolutely not appreciated by Bards in general lol, but personally I didn’t really mind since Bard being super low dps was just par-for-the-course lol. The only existing proc at the time was Bloodletter, followed by (I think) Rain of Death sometime shortly after when they had to nerf it for breaking coils, or maybe Titan? lol (damage down gcds go brrr). So yeah, they were a pretty major aspect of the entire job. Same goes for Heavensward though hilariously they added more oGCDs like Empyreal Arrow and Sidewinder in addition to the cast times from Minuet. Then come Stormblood we get the passive buff songs, not really my thing but I could take it. Then when even they went once Shadowbringers came out, I knew I could save myself the heartache and just jump ship (onto another sinking ship aka SCH)

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I have played since the start of HW. The ARR BRD you describe is literally not a caster in my book. Again, slapping a couple of casts onto Iajutsus doesn't make SAM a caster, and neither does Communio makes RPR a caster. Unless you're actually trying to argue that it does? Having a cast time on 3 songs, knowing on top of it that Mage and Army were not even part of the DPS rotation back then, and that Foe was a raid buff, doesn't make it a caster by any means in my eyes, just a ranged SAM. I'm perfectly happy with this by the way, if I have to repeat myself once more. In fact, people wouldn't have been mad about the cast times in HW if ARR BRD had already been a caster, and yet, they were. And I do remember what ARR BRD was even though I haven't played it.

If you mean that 1.0 BRD or whatever it was at the time should also be considered for precedence... I mean, can it really? Was 1.0 even the same game? The same battle system? The same roles? Not sure about that... Feels like a stretch to me to use it as a justification for anything...

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Originally Posted by Connor

In terms of the terrible gameplay, absolutely. In terms of the concept? I haven’t seen that much for or against it - just that what we have now is very much not fun to play.

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I have actually read a lot of comments on it not being a caster anymore. A LOT.

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Originally Posted by Connor

To me the problem with Bard going into Shadowbringers is that they had completely deleted everything ‘magical’ and ‘FF Bard-like’ in favour of a bunch of Archery abilities. Songs didn’t even have support effects at the beginning, they were literal pure dps cooldowns. Minne was arguably even worse than now because it was still single target, Paean remained functionally redundant as debuffs were/are either unremovable or not really worth using. They removed role skill support abilities like Palisade, Tactician and Refresh. And most evil of all, they took my Foe Requiem. The last remaining song that existed purely for support and not as a glorified dps cool-down. Or, well, it was, but at least it was wearing a convincing moustache!

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- Songs: they fixed it for 5.1 when people complained that BRD was not the heavy dps support it used to be anymore, notably complaining about songs not buffing the party anymore. So your problem with it was actually addressed relatively fast (especially for SE).
- Minne was already the single target buff it was in SB. That it didn't change between SB and SHB can therefore not be a reason for suddenly hating the job?
- Warden's has never changed since its inception in HW, so, I'm confused with this as well?
- Palisade, Tactician and Refresh were a blow to the rphys role as a whole, not BRD, but that's indeed one of the things I covered when I mentioned that has been ripped from rphys identity, and it's left it without a clear use in any party those days, especially when combined with the fact that parties are now drowning under raid mitigation as well. I'd understand leaving the role for this very reason yes. It was a big part of it, even though SB had already started to gnaw at it.
- Foe Requiem yeah, same thing but focused on the BRD. The only raid buff even remotely interesting to use with Hypercharge, and they chose to remove those on the 2 jobs literally described as party supports.

But this hardly concerns cast times... It's actually a part of what I've been clamoring to refocus the job upon, even though I know that raid support like the latter point will not happen unless they do serious rollbacks or changes to the whole battle system. But neither cast times on filler spells will happen anyway for similar reasons: BRD would be literally unplayable in its current state with cast times on the filler.

But I'll say it again, adding cast times back to the songs? Totally up for it, would even feel more like singing.

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Originally Posted by Xieldras

Foe's Requiem in the song rotation: How do you do fellow songs?

Stormblood was definitely the peak of the class in my opinion. We had a wider support range than what we currently have (I miss Palissade, even if Tanks don't need it at all right now), a high skill ceiling, and a more solid idea of what our class identity was. The current issue right now really is that the role scales baked in forced the class into a median between power and support, and average without distinction is just bad. They focused too much on the Archer aspect without understanding why Magical Archer worked back in HW and SB, and we got the monstrosity that is Apex/Burst Arrow as a result.

Like I said before, some cast times can work within the role and a mix of casting and instant could be cool, but it seems to me that a lot of people here are more in favor of adding a cast time to all weaponskills instead of keeping them instantaneous.

And I wonder if that's merely because of looking for novelty, because I have a feeling that implementing this will merely drown the role even more and make current mains leave. Not to mention how current fight design is already harsh if you don't know the dance, as boss casts are punishing and quick (and you cannot walk out of those quickly). It could be an opportunity to make Repel Shot more useful, but I doubt 90% of the players have that skill on their hotbar.

My question really is: How will this help rDPS? I've not yet been convinced by the thread since the argument really seems to be "it'll be cooler because PvP is fun, and I want PvE to be fun like that too". Which is a fair sentiment, but doesn't really take into account the role's design within a PvE environment and all the intricacies that can happen. Realistically, such a drastic change would need to be stress tested over months to check exactly that.

And if such changes do go through, well I don't know where I would go then. AST had its RNG removed. Melee doesn't appeal to me. RDM maybe? It would be pushing players out that do not have an alternative in jobs. Then, how many would come into the forums and say they hate the cast times once the novelty wears off?

This whole thing just doesn't seem that well thought-out.

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This exactly what I've been trying to say since the very beginning. 100% agree. Refocus on the basics and what made rphys what it was instead of trying to tack it into other roles. Keep what the players like instead of going for crazy wild changes that are already doomed to be divisive. Make it unique.

This is why reading this:

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Originally Posted by mallleable

For BRD, just add a walking cast to Burst Shot, make Hawk's Eye proc guaranteed after 3 casted GCDs, everything else can be instant. For MCH, replace the Clean Shot combo with Blast Charge which is a walking cast, and create a system so that every third GCD grants battery, everything else can be instant. Give BRD, and MCH a weaker instant GCD that they can fall back on in case of emergencies.

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... is literally filling me with dread. It would be even more punishing than PCT.

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Originally Posted by Valence

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Then don't deny acting dismissive and be real about it, I prefer someone to be straight up "I don't like your opinion its stupid" instead of saying "I don't like your opinion its stupid woah hey no offence though", its dumb.
Personally I don't care if someone comes along who has 2 hours on PCT, SCH or whatever Job im maining at the moment because I view anyone who has an honest opinion on something to have the right to say it, jobs can become peoples mains if they change to a way they like which is fine, elitism over maining a job in XIV is stupid anyway, this isn't WoW or GW2 you can switch jobs at anytime if you were locked to MCH since the start then yeah I'd think being dismissive about that is fine, but imo it doesn't matter if someone mains a job or not. I have had my favourite jobs completely changed over and over again so I don't paticularly have the same attachment to what I play as you do anymore, if you want to fight against all changes to Phys Range, sure its your life I just don't care and you'll never make me care, I am far past that now.

For SMN its not really a caster at all, for RDM its a hybrid, if it had longer casts then yeah I would agree it is a caster but really if you learn slide casting you only really stay still for at most a second every 4 seconds as opposed to PCT and BLM where if you're casting you're liking not moving around often and when you do move you have abilities designed for moving, Holy in white/Hammer for PCT and BLM many instant cast abilities. So yeah I don't consider RDM a caster fully considering its melee combo is filled with instant cast Acceleration gives you two instant casts now and swift cast has a shorter CD and this is what I would have as the ideal movement Magical Ranged and I think SMN goes too far in its movement. This is of course a subjective opinion, the same way you consider Phys range having no instant casts being core to its role while I see it as a support dps, though this is mostly because the job guide website describes it as "Physical ranged DPS attack foes from a distance. They excel at inflicting sustained damage, and also provide support for companions." If it ever said something about it having only instant casts then yeah I'll change my opinion and say its core to phys range.

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Originally Posted by Valence

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- They fixed songs because of the waves of backlash it caused not because they suddenly realised they’d made a design error lol. It was the same as Energy Drain. But that doesn’t really change the fact that the devs would happily get rid of Bard’s support capabilities even further if they thought they could do it without people criticising them. The fact they could so easily turn something like songs into pure dps cooldowns made it abundantly clear they didn’t care about the jobs support aspects. That’s not to mention how they’re 100% passive now. There’s no thought or agency on when to sing; you press your dps button to do your dps because essentially that’s all they really now. The buff is a nice bit of fluff I guess, but I’d rather have songs that I actually have to put some modicum of thought into using.

- That’s…exactly my point about Minne/Paean. They were practically useless in Stormblood (because lol Esuna lol single target heal boost), yet despite many people talking about how they were essentially wasted ability slots the devs decided it was perfectly acceptable to keep them exactly as we are. And continuing from that we’ve seen gradually less healing requirements and less frequent removable debuffs than ever before, so our two ‘support songs’ we have a modicum of agency over are essentially dead weight. Maybe in Savage if the Scholar wants to do a meme shield? lol
- The fact they removed the role skills in a vacuum might not have been enough to turn me away from the role alone. But compounded with removing song buffs (albeit temporarily), deletion of Foe Requiem, Paean remaining literally untouched since Heavensward (still is), Minne having a functionally redundant effect (I mean, it has the same cool-down as Lux Solaris and Star Prism, a literal aoe power heal lol).

Those things together made it clear to me they didn’t want phys ranged to be anywhere close to touching ‘support oriented’ , probably because they’re still traumatised over 4X Bard Coils at release. And frankly the few changes they’ve made to try and ‘walk’ that back simply were not good enough. Radiant Finale is yet another ‘support ability’ that’s almost 100% passive; the only input you actually have on using is pressing the actual button. It does essentially nothing to add the gameplay and just makes song rotations even tighter because of coda.

…that’s it lol, they haven’t added any additional support capabilities to Bard in any way since they removed most of it at Shadowbringers. Not even a defensive or utility buff for flavour. Maybe in a different game where there’s actual threatening damage output and removable debuffs going out frequently its support capabilities wouldn’t feel so non-existent. Unfortunately, SE seems adamant on making sure ffxiv is not that game

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Originally Posted by Connor

- Quote cuz saving space for writing

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I would argue the whole passive-support deal has its roots in the current combat system itself. The core combat concepts, I think, definitely changed between SB and ShB (when I left after they gutted Bard). Classes seemed to have become more solo and action-focused, and support skills are a "click and forget" deal as party management in general has gone out the window (Enmity, TP). That's why support options are mostly "% buff of so-and-so attribute" and not as variable as before, like when we could regenerate the party's MP. It's also easier for a skeleton crew to manage, since it's all number crunching and not requiring as intensive testing as more creative skills.

I am also disappointed in Radiant Finale, especially our new lv100 skill. It's just another Burst Arrow...Square stop trying to make it work, it doesn't!

And for Warden's Paean. I love it, but holy heck does it have very limited value. There's no reward for preemptively casting it to block out debuffs anymore since most are uncleansable and just go through anyways. But that's a whole other can of worms concerning Esuna and Artificial Difficulty in fights.

FF14 does play more like a solo-player experience (alongside other players) than an actual MMO, and I stand by that. Especially with the addition of Trusts. It is what is driving the game's combat into boredom.

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Originally Posted by Xieldras

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Yeah, it’s definitely as much a problem with encounter design itself as it is class design. In a game where the entire system revolves around ‘dps really fast’, support/utility are always going to be of minimal value. Especially when the content is generally so easy that there isn’t any way to get proper value from things like healing boosts. Culminating in sad ‘dps-disguised-as-support’ abilities like Finale.

For me Encore is just as tragic. It looks amazing, perfectly fulfills the ‘caster in trench coat’, gives the job a clearer aesthetic identity…except it’s a 2min cool-down. So you get to see it like once every burst and then it’s back to being a normal Archer again. I’d love to see it become tied to the songs themselves, like becoming available after each song with a rising potency each time through coda.

And yeah, I’d love Minne and Paean in a game where healing requirements were frequently tight and removable debuffs were a genuine threat. Unfortunately, ffxiv does not want to be that game. Which makes me question why they even exist in their current forms; nobody needs extra healing and debuffs barely exist. They could at least give Paean a regen effect so it could combat the many bleeds we see in current content or something. Or if they desperately want to keep their current effects, they could make them gcd spells with an appropriate MP cost. I mean, I don’t think having the potential for 100% uptime healing boost would make Bard the ultimate dps lol, plus nobody would waste the gcd to cast it in the first place if it wasn’t already an emergency.

Lastly I do like the trust system overall in combat, but I do agree that it seems to have unduly restrained how creative they can be with mechanics and encounter design. Or at least that’s the impression I get. Honestly I’d find it hilarious if they went all out with mechanics and trusts could actually die to them. I’m not even sure it’s possible currently

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Originally Posted by Connor

For me Encore is just as tragic. It looks amazing, perfectly fulfills the ‘caster in trench coat’, gives the job a clearer aesthetic identity…except it’s a 2min cool-down. So you get to see it like once every burst and then it’s back to being a normal Archer again. I’d love to see it become tied to the songs themselves, like becoming available after each song with a rising potency each time through coda.

And yeah, I’d love Minne and Paean in a game where healing requirements were frequently tight and removable debuffs were a genuine threat. Unfortunately, ffxiv does not want to be that game. Which makes me question why they even exist in their current forms; nobody needs extra healing and debuffs barely exist. They could at least give Paean a regen effect so it could combat the many bleeds we see in current content or something. Or if they desperately want to keep their current effects, they could make them gcd spells with an appropriate MP cost. I mean, I don’t think having the potential for 100% uptime healing boost would make Bard the ultimate dps lol, plus nobody would waste the gcd to cast it in the first place if it wasn’t already an emergency.

Lastly I do like the trust system overall in combat, but I do agree that it seems to have unduly restrained how creative they can be with mechanics and encounter design. Or at least that’s the impression I get. Honestly I’d find it hilarious if they went all out with mechanics and trusts could actually die to them. I’m not even sure it’s possible currently

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Encore does look pretty cool, I cannot deny that it fulfills its identity purpose too. Fear my singing, monsters, for I bring down the fury of my vocal chords upon thee!

I think simply tying the multiple systems Bard has under its belt together and adding MP management in the form of spells-to-mp (songs) would be good enough to satisfy most players, no need to completely change the way it plays at its base. And that's all the role itself needs really: actual care from the Dev team (who as I understand are all Warrior mains? Would check out with our current balancing to be honest).

However I would like to ask a question because I still don't seem to understand properly: What is the difference between the PvP walking casts and the mDPS casts? From a purely design standpoint, they are far too similar and can easily be grouped up under the "Casting" umbrella. In a PvE environment, as players seem to wish to bring those to, they would functionnally work the same way as well because the rDPS role would be rendered static (though not in the same degree as the actual mages) unlike its current "run-while-shooting-and-dodging" gameplay.

I still like the idea of *one* ranged physical dps having walking casts. If they put it onto a new job as part of *some* of their skill set, then it can be like Samurai.

Personally I wish we had Bard and Hunter\Sniper as separate jobs, where Hunter\Sniper can toggle a Boost (FFTA) type stance where they have walk casting or something. Also I don't think a Bard laying poisons on enemies really makes sense from a job identity, idk

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Originally Posted by Xieldras

However I would like to ask a question because I still don't seem to understand properly: What is the difference between the PvP walking casts and the mDPS casts? From a purely design standpoint, they are far too similar and can easily be grouped up under the "Casting" umbrella. In a PvE environment, as players seem to wish to bring those to, they would functionnally work the same way as well because the rDPS role would be rendered static (though not in the same degree as the actual mages) unlike its current "run-while-shooting-and-dodging" gameplay.

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As I understand it I think the general idea is both: that it gives what’s currently fairly lacklustre gameplay a bit more depth, albeit not much; and that it would justify giving rDPS more competitive dps than we have currently.

I think the main differentiation between the two forms of ‘casting’ is that while mages are generally both stationary and each have their own unique casting animation etc. PvP rDPS are both mobile and have a shared animation, which I think feeds into the whole ‘charging not casting’ thing where people don’t really see it as being the same, despite it being essentially the same functionally / in practice. And I mean, with slidecasting being a thing isn’t every cast a ‘walking cast’ lol? Sliding cast?

Personally I think for Bard at least casting definitely has a place for songs. For Machinist and Dancer, much less so. The only weapon skills I’d personally accept cast times on are Iron Jaws and Radiant Finale. Mostly because, there’s no bloody way those are weaponskills that deal physical damage (“Ouch! You smacked me with a ball of aetherial poison! I’ll be bruised for days!”) lol. But they could also justify the cast times by having Iron Jaws also spread Windbite/Venomous Bite, and for Finale a cast time could balance out having it useable more often. I think lol

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

Then don't deny acting dismissive and be real about it, I prefer someone to be straight up "I don't like your opinion its stupid" instead of saying "I don't like your opinion its stupid woah hey no offence though", its dumb.

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I am sorry but you literally started all of this by saying and I quote that I don't care about other's opinions, only mine. And now you're backpedaling and accusing me of being dismissive and only admitting it after I addressed the first part that started it all? Forgive me if this feels a bit disingenuous to me. But perhaps I got baited into it, which was probably stupid of me.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

Personally I don't care if someone comes along who has 2 hours on PCT, SCH or whatever Job im maining at the moment because I view anyone who has an honest opinion on something to have the right to say it, jobs can become peoples mains if they change to a way they like which is fine, elitism over maining a job in XIV is stupid anyway, this isn't WoW or GW2 you can switch jobs at anytime if you were locked to MCH since the start then yeah I'd think being dismissive about that is fine, but imo it doesn't matter if someone mains a job or not. I have had my favourite jobs completely changed over and over again so I don't paticularly have the same attachment to what I play as you do anymore, if you want to fight against all changes to Phys Range, sure its your life I just don't care and you'll never make me care, I am far past that now.

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I'm happy for you if you're able to move on. It's not my case. If what you're insinuating is that it makes my opinion less worth of considering, or elitist, or whatever, then I'm sorry to hear that. I enjoy playing a lot of other roles or jobs casually, but what I do main in challenging content is rphys, because other roles have some facets that I find fundamentally antithetical to my fun at higher doses. I've seen a lot of people that love changing and playing all kinds of jobs and even roles all the times. I've also seen a lot of players like me that stick to their guns and do not want to change, and not in spite of trying either.

I am absolutely open to any opinion from anybody. I am less happy when people start hammering something about I'm wrong to dislike their idea; and how in reality it would rob me of the enjoyment I have into maining a role just to make it more enjoyable for them (and will they actually start maining it after, or was this just a passing trend?). That's how it felt that at some point I eventually had to ask, and if that wasn't the intent, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. After all i'll be the first to admit that it's been a very sore wound for many created by SE themselves with their constant disregard for their veterans with some of the changes they introduce. But I still rest my case on this specific debate and will keep pushing back against this walked casts idea, which prompted the OP in the first place. Is this elitism/gatekeepism?

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

This is of course a subjective opinion, the same way you consider Phys range having no instant casts being core to its role while I see it as a support dps, though this is mostly because the job guide website describes it as "Physical ranged DPS attack foes from a distance. They excel at inflicting sustained damage, and also provide support for companions." If it ever said something about it having only instant casts then yeah I'll change my opinion and say its core to phys range.

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Personally, i'll always base myself on what the game has been and its history over whatever description a website can have. Obviously, it doesn't mean that I should disregard it completely though, but the difference in language it tends to have with what the devs serve us on a daily basis sure can prove interesting at times.

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Originally Posted by Connor

- They fixed songs because of the waves of backlash it caused not because they suddenly realised they’d made a design error lol. It was the same as Energy Drain. But that doesn’t really change the fact that the devs would happily get rid of Bard’s support capabilities even further if they thought they could do it without people criticising them. The fact they could so easily turn something like songs into pure dps cooldowns made it abundantly clear they didn’t care about the jobs support aspects. That’s not to mention how they’re 100% passive now. There’s no thought or agency on when to sing; you press your dps button to do your dps because essentially that’s all they really now. The buff is a nice bit of fluff I guess, but I’d rather have songs that I actually have to put some modicum of thought into using.

- That’s…exactly my point about Minne/Paean. They were practically useless in Stormblood (because lol Esuna lol single target heal boost), yet despite many people talking about how they were essentially wasted ability slots the devs decided it was perfectly acceptable to keep them exactly as we are. And continuing from that we’ve seen gradually less healing requirements and less frequent removable debuffs than ever before, so our two ‘support songs’ we have a modicum of agency over are essentially dead weight. Maybe in Savage if the Scholar wants to do a meme shield? lol
- The fact they removed the role skills in a vacuum might not have been enough to turn me away from the role alone. But compounded with removing song buffs (albeit temporarily), deletion of Foe Requiem, Paean remaining literally untouched since Heavensward (still is), Minne having a functionally redundant effect (I mean, it has the same cool-down as Lux Solaris and Star Prism, a literal aoe power heal lol).

Those things together made it clear to me they didn’t want phys ranged to be anywhere close to touching ‘support oriented’ , probably because they’re still traumatised over 4X Bard Coils at release. And frankly the few changes they’ve made to try and ‘walk’ that back simply were not good enough. Radiant Finale is yet another ‘support ability’ that’s almost 100% passive; the only input you actually have on using is pressing the actual button. It does essentially nothing to add the gameplay and just makes song rotations even tighter because of coda.

…that’s it lol, they haven’t added any additional support capabilities to Bard in any way since they removed most of it at Shadowbringers. Not even a defensive or utility buff for flavour. Maybe in a different game where there’s actual threatening damage output and removable debuffs going out frequently its support capabilities wouldn’t feel so non-existent. Unfortunately, SE seems adamant on making sure ffxiv is not that game

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That's fair and I do not like the direction the devs have been going about when it comes to rphys at all. I agree with this.

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Originally Posted by Xieldras

FF14 does play more like a solo-player experience (alongside other players) than an actual MMO, and I stand by that. Especially with the addition of Trusts. It is what is driving the game's combat into boredom.

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It goes in combination with how they have tried to turn encounters more and more into DDR visual puzzles and action based solo gameplay, and how a battle system too complex to mesh with a higher focus on encounter mechanics on their own got in the way as well. When the playerbase constantly complains about how it feels bad dying because someone else fucked up enmity, or how it feels bad dying because out of MP cause the bard forgot to sing, or how it feels bad dying because of SOMEONE ELSE in a team based game, then yes you end up with tanking being on rails and impossible to kill, rphys left out of a job, and even healing being slowly removed from a requirement to allow people to coast through even if the healer dies today (up to a point). And I'm not just talking about the healer strike.

Since the conclusion seems to be that "it feels bad when someone does X or Y", then the only resort is to remove the multiplayer component, at least partially so that people can stay on autopilot on that specific point.

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Originally Posted by Connor

Yeah, it’s definitely as much a problem with encounter design itself as it is class design. In a game where the entire system revolves around ‘dps really fast’, support/utility are always going to be of minimal value. Especially when the content is generally so easy that there isn’t any way to get proper value from things like healing boosts. Culminating in sad ‘dps-disguised-as-support’ abilities like Finale.

For me Encore is just as tragic. It looks amazing, perfectly fulfills the ‘caster in trench coat’, gives the job a clearer aesthetic identity…except it’s a 2min cool-down. So you get to see it like once every burst and then it’s back to being a normal Archer again. I’d love to see it become tied to the songs themselves, like becoming available after each song with a rising potency each time through coda.

And yeah, I’d love Minne and Paean in a game where healing requirements were frequently tight and removable debuffs were a genuine threat. Unfortunately, ffxiv does not want to be that game. Which makes me question why they even exist in their current forms; nobody needs extra healing and debuffs barely exist. They could at least give Paean a regen effect so it could combat the many bleeds we see in current content or something. Or if they desperately want to keep their current effects, they could make them gcd spells with an appropriate MP cost. I mean, I don’t think having the potential for 100% uptime healing boost would make Bard the ultimate dps lol, plus nobody would waste the gcd to cast it in the first place if it wasn’t already an emergency.

Lastly I do like the trust system overall in combat, but I do agree that it seems to have unduly restrained how creative they can be with mechanics and encounter design. Or at least that’s the impression I get. Honestly I’d find it hilarious if they went all out with mechanics and trusts could actually die to them. I’m not even sure it’s possible currently

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It's very sad to say, and believe me when I say I'd rather like to have what you describe, but the reality is that the direction they have chosen for the game since shb axed all of those things is probably going to stay, and get worse over time for us.

And with that in mind, if removing most of our so called support (that everybody else and their mothers have anyway), would allow us to suddenly field a more rewarding damage output than the joke that it is today, I'd gladly take it ten times over. All those support relics don't serve any real purpose anymore, even though i'll admit I had a little fun using Warden on people getting hit with that doom debuff in P10S when they failed at that specific mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Xieldras

However I would like to ask a question because I still don't seem to understand properly: What is the difference between the PvP walking casts and the mDPS casts? From a purely design standpoint, they are far too similar and can easily be grouped up under the "Casting" umbrella. In a PvE environment, as players seem to wish to bring those to, they would functionnally work the same way as well because the rDPS role would be rendered static (though not in the same degree as the actual mages) unlike its current "run-while-shooting-and-dodging" gameplay.

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They're essentially very similar in result into what they allow you to do and not to do yes and would definitely fall under the same umbrella. You can just keep casting while moving extremely slowly (with a disguised heavy effect until end of cast).

As I exposed already, they cannot be as easily canceled: you need to press escape but with enough margin before the end of the cast to beat the latency/responsiveness, they cannot be canceled by just walking away. When compared to a similar cast however people need to compare them to 1.5s fast casts, which you have on the PCT basic filler or all healers for example. Or what rphys used to have in HW with minuet/gauss barrel. They're obviously less constraining than longer casts like 2.5s or higher, but that's because the only ones we have right now in pvp are 1.5s casts. They do however definitely feel longer than normal 1.5s casts especially since you can't slidecast them, since you're already moving, and the mobility debuff requires the cast to actually finish to go away. And as a reminder, you have full speed when sliding at the end of a cast, which is why the current 1.5s fast casts within the caster roles (healers/dps) feel a lot more responsive and forgiving than pvp walked casts.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I am sorry but you literally started all of this by saying and I quote that I don't care about other's opinions, only mine. And now you're backpedaling and accusing me of being dismissive

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I'll assume from now on that you weren't trying to disregard other peoples opinions but the comment especially about calling people caster mains made it seem like you really didn't want to engage with other opinions which could of just been a poor choice of words.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'm happy for you if you're able to move on. It's not my case. If what you're insinuating is that it makes my opinion less worth of considering, or elitist, or whatever, then I'm sorry to hear that. I've seen a lot of people that love changing and playing all kinds of jobs and even roles all the times. I've also seen a lot of players like me that stick to their guns and do not want to change, and not in spite of trying either.

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Thats fine I can understand why you prefer the identity of no cast times on Phys Range and there are a lot of people who ask for changes that fit personal tastes instead of whats good for the job. What I was talking about was more related to giving you my viewpoint and background to let you know im viewing this from the pov of an ex-bard main who doesn't like how range phys currently is and that being the reason I don't care about cast times.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I am absolutely open to any opinion from anybody. I am less happy when people start hammering something about I'm wrong to dislike their idea-- That's how it felt that at some point I eventually had to ask, and if that wasn't the intent, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. But I still rest my case on this specific debate and will keep pushing back against this walked casts idea

Personally, i'll always base myself on what the game has been and its history over whatever description a website can have. Obviously, it doesn't mean that I should disregard it completely though.

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I think it purely came from a previous sentence that looked like you were disregarding opinions instead of having a discussion so it was probably just text not conveying your attitude properly, So yeah its fine.
I don't think its elitism nor gatekeeping to prefer a style of gameplay over another style otherwise its fine if you prefer instant cast attacks, me personally would not mind walking casts on a Bard song and maybe one on DNC in the form of that spinning move. Though my issues with bard are far more than that, I think walking casts could be interesting but I agree that they aren't really the answer to fixing phys range.

I use the website as a official manifesto behind each role for CBU3 as their statements of what they consider role identities to be, which is why I often criticise magical dps because it bluntly states that they are restricted by casting times which is not true or SMN and most of RDM.