Give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to Bloodwhetting

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

The only thing that matters on the tank invulns in their current design is their cooldown.
Warrior should lose duration on it's invuln so that it can't fully cover all mechanics, and it's forced to dig into it's defensive toolkit or gives healers stuff to do.
It's become an omnijob, and needs weaknesses.

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The ONLY upside to warriors invuln is it's recast timer. Nobody is celebrating the warrior for staying alive...but then to see it's health drop back down to 1 with only 3 seconds left on the invuln. The weakness is that holmgang just won't let you die more often then any of the other invulns.

Holmgang requires you to drop thrill and/or equal at the same time just so you can get healed up faster. Which can lower amount of mitigation for a buster soon after, or when you really need it.
GNB has that o shit moment to healers, but at least the gunbreaker doesn't lose HP after using it. Just a backwards hallowed.
And DRK's is kind of disgusting imo. 1500 potency heal PER attack...I was like "That's absurd!" when I read those patch notes. They fixed Living Dead with this change.

War does have a good invuln simply because you can use it 3-4 times per pull....other then that it's a great burden to the healers sometimes. The cooldown is fine imo. The weakness to holmgang is that you need healer to get you back to decent HP value.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

The ONLY upside to warriors invuln is it's recast timer. Nobody is celebrating the warrior for staying alive...but then to see it's health drop back down to 1 with only 3 seconds left on the invuln. The weakness is that holmgang just won't let you die more often then any of the other invulns.

Holmgang requires you to drop thrill and/or equal at the same time just so you can get healed up faster. Which can lower amount of mitigation for a buster soon after, or when you really need it.
GNB has that o shit moment to healers, but at least the gunbreaker doesn't lose HP after using it. Just a backwards hallowed.
And DRK's is kind of disgusting imo. 1500 potency heal PER attack...I was like "That's absurd!" when I read those patch notes. They fixed Living Dead with this change.

War does have a good invuln simply because you can use it 3-4 times per pull....other then that it's a great burden to the healers sometimes. The cooldown is fine imo. The weakness to holmgang is that you need healer to get you back to decent HP value.

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WAR can put itself back to safe health levels with equilibrium alone it doesn’t need a healer

If WAR and DRK’s invulns swapped DRK would struggle with WAR’s invuln since it has little self healing but WAR needing to heal itself after the invuln is done is functionally of no concern at all

I honestly feel what WAR needs to get a little bit more identity. It does increased damage during inner release...or a Bleed effect during inner release.

You do more damage, but sustain a bleed or 10% more incoming damage. Whichever the case my be. This would make bloodwhetting, nascent, thrill, equal be much more necessary when bursting.

WAR is taking more damage ever 1 min at the exchange for increased damage. Which would kind of force you to manage your mitigations better so you don't kill yourself.

Or maybe you get a bleed during the off minute wait until inner release comes off cooldown for your 2 min burst. Kind of like Berserk of old with the pacification you would have. You bleed more during inner release until your charges for fell cleave are gone, and back to a bleed during your downtime. So this means WAR is always taking more damage, but gains more damage.

So instead of keeping Storms Eye up....you have to keep a bleed effect rolling constantly. You take more damage, but increase your damage. You have to rely on your bloodwhetting to regain HP, or equal to help with sustain regen, or thrill to increase incoming healing.

High Risk....High Reward gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

WAR can put itself back to safe health levels with equilibrium alone it doesn’t need a healer

If WAR and DRK’s invulns swapped DRK would struggle with WAR’s invuln since it has little self healing but WAR needing to heal itself after the invuln is done is functionally of no concern at all

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P12s lazy lasers says otherwise. You have to time holmgang right so it lasts the length of the lasers, and for a few autos after since you get a physical vuln debuff. It rip your HP from you VERY fast, and if your holmgang is gone with that auto follow up....you gonna die unless your healers blast you with healing.

Same with P8s pt. 2 opener. Shared auto tank busters. If you are invulning them you have to time it just right so you have 3-4 seconds left before you get one shot. Healers struggle with that opener of that fight if a WAR is in the pt.

This last tier and the previous tier were kinda of rough on tanks. A lot of double swap tank busters with vulns. Requires kind of perfect swaps with even better timed mitigations. Don't get me wrong....I loved it since playing tank on the first tier was boring as hell with not much outside of P1s with purgation or grace swaps, or P2s making you swap MT/OT completely for certain portions of the fight so it was an either or busters, shared (or invuln) but nothing scary. P3s was just formulaic in it's design with just double busters...no swaps. P4s pt1 and p2 was kind of like P2s where the tanks would swap busters, but they would just take over for certain portions. Pinax might have been the only problem as far as tank responsibility goes.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

P12s lazy lasers says otherwise. You have to time holmgang right so it lasts the length of the lasers, and for a few autos after since you get a physical vuln debuff. It rip your HP from you VERY fast, and if your holmgang is gone with that auto follow up....you gonna die unless your healers blast you with healing.

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That’s functionally one example in a laundry list of EW examples where you just pressed holmgang and forgot the mechanic entirely and the example is functionally cheesing a mechanic because of holmgang anyway

99% of busters this expansion WAR can ignore with holmgang then heal itself

I agree it's cheese. And there are MORE then 1 example to use holmgang throughout all the savage tiers in endwalker.

I would also say I never used Holmgang unless it was deliberately planned. Most often for busters it was vengeance and thrill. Maybe an equal afterwards.

I guess what I'm trying to say is. Why even bring up the fact that Holm needs looked at...if it's used for cheese anyway? WAR has everything it needs to survive.

99% of the reason we use invulns IS to cheese. Except for P10s where that is 100% needed as it's a wild charge. That mech was a nightmare, but fun.

I guess I don't understand the need to change invulns since from a standpoint of fair...they are pretty much the same despite stylistically different.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

I agree it's cheese. And there are MORE then 1 example to use holmgang throughout all the savage tiers in endwalker.

I would also say I never used Holmgang unless it was deliberately planned. Most often for busters it was vengeance and thrill. Maybe an equal afterwards.

I guess what I'm trying to say is. Why even bring up the fact that Holm needs looked at...if it's used for cheese anyway? WAR has everything it needs to survive.

99% of the reason we use invulns IS to cheese. Except for P10s where that is 100% needed as it's a wild charge. That mech was a nightmare, but fun.

I guess I don't understand the need to change invulns since from a standpoint of fair...they are pretty much the same despite stylistically different.

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Because the CD on WAR’s means that it can either cancel way more busters or cheese and then still cancel a later buster anyway

The CD on WAR’s invuln is too short and it warps the tank mechanics around it, it’s very mild weakness of needing a healer in some circumstances doesn’t change how overpowered it is in terms of it being able to warp savage around it. The nerf needs to be to its CD, not to anything about how it works

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Because the CD on WAR’s means that it can either cancel way more busters or cheese and then still cancel a later buster anyway

The CD on WAR’s invuln is too short and it warps the tank mechanics around it, it’s very mild weakness of needing a healer in some circumstances doesn’t change how overpowered it is in terms of it being able to warp savage around it. The nerf needs to be to its CD, not to anything about how it works

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So this is why we have homogenization.

What's next? PLD's Passive healing is to much?

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

So this is why we have homogenization.

What's next? PLD's Passive healing is to much?

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There is a difference between homogenisation and bending entire savage tiers around one tanks overpowered CD that has literally zero downsides

The closest example would be macrocosmos warping the heal check in P3 but that was specifically because of how the mechanic calculated damage and how macrocosmos works, meanwhile WAR can do that with literally anything every 4 minutes it’s absurd

The other option would be to leave holmgang as it is and then nerf everything else about WAR and make that its niche but they don’t seem to do that either. Fixing one tanks overwhelming dominance in every field is not homogenisation

And for the record yes PLD has too much healing, I would fully support nerfing it, it doesn’t need a heal on all magic spells, a regen on holy Shelton and intervention and a heal on veil even ignoring clemency

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

There is a difference between homogenisation and bending entire savage tiers around one tanks overpowered CD that has literally zero downsides

The closest example would be macrocosmos warping the heal check in P3 but that was specifically because of how the mechanic calculated damage and how macrocosmos works, meanwhile WAR can do that with literally anything every 4 minutes it’s absurd

The other option would be to leave holmgang as it is and then nerf everything else about WAR and make that its niche but they don’t seem to do that either. Fixing one tanks overwhelming dominance in every field is not homogenisation

And for the record yes PLD has too much healing, I would fully support nerfing it, it doesn’t need a heal on all magic spells, a regen on holy Shelton and intervention and a heal on veil even ignoring clemency

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I'm starting to think you don't main a tank or primarily tank in savage. Because if SE did what you wanted....then each tank would literally play the same...like literally. You could bring w/e you wanted. Might as well change PLD/WAR/GNB/DRK names to just "tank".

Because what you think is "overpowered" is different then what I think is overpowered. Hallowed Ground is OP....like zero downsides....I use it...I don't die....and I get to keep ALL my HP....no healer needed.

TBN is over powered...use it...negate ton's of damage, gain a increased free damage button.

Heart of Corundom is overpowered....like a mini excog on a VERY short cooldown.

I think each tank has it's strengths and weaknesses, but it's how you address those strengths and weaknesses is how a savage group needs to overcome. I know for a fact that I can do P12's on PLD or WAR....and my healers have to adjust...it's not a ton...but they have to address WAR's weakness of lesser self sustain then PLD's nutty every 20 seconds I can heal myself. But the fact is....my healers KNOW that as PLD....I don't need much baby sitting. WAR...they might have to toss me a regen or small shield every once in a while.