Dark Knight needs serious help

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Originally Posted by Amenara

I think the issue you would run into with the lack of AoE healing on Bloodwhetting is that it would be an inferior damage reduction CD and would have to be buffed to compensate and put it on the same level as something like Shelltron. Then again, I think the easier answer might be to just drop a lot of the self healing from all the tanks or make it more of a long CD and put the healing requirements back on the healers so we can just stop having the balance argument on it.

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it's already really good, 400 potency barrier, two 10% reductions, 400 potency healing per hit, it's already on par with sheltron/HOC without the AOE aspect. You would not run into any issues with removing the AOE healing aspect from it. Warrior is already currently the strongest tank in all forms of content anyway, I'm sure it's fine to make them more on par with other tanks in dungeon content, Honestly warrior would still be really good in dungeons just reasonable and it doesn't effect hardcore content outside niche aoe situations

Self sustain doesn't need to be removed, Tanks are already too much like "big hp melee dps" I don't think going for the "easy answer" solves anything about this game, they wanted to solve aggro management? well the easy answer was to remove it, they wanted to solve raid buffs, Make them all the same, ect. We shouldn't solve things strictly by either removing it or reducing it to amount that isn't even noticeable, I don't think we need to take more from tanks in general, we should be adding on more to tanks and giving them more utility actually.

The only OTHER sustain i'd want removed is the AOE regen of shake it off, maybe remove magic attacks from healing the PLD to put that healing somewhere else more interesting, I think it's good that tanks have support abilities and some forms of healing, The encounter design is the main issue at the end of the day, you can remove all the sustain on tanks but have dungeons and easy content barely require a healer to press any buttons still, Dark knight is a great example of that, you really don't need to heal them much in the 6.1+ dungeons, The game needs to up the damage and let tanks pull more, instead of this idea of just removing sustain from tanks.

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Originally Posted by Amenara

I think the issue you would run into with the lack of AoE healing on Bloodwhetting is that it would be an inferior damage reduction CD and would have to be buffed to compensate and put it on the same level as something like Shelltron. Then again, I think the easier answer might be to just drop a lot of the self healing from all the tanks or make it more of a long CD and put the healing requirements back on the healers so we can just stop having the balance argument on it.

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And why exactly would it be a bad thing if Warrior is worse at something than the other tanks?
You have the best invuln, sustained dps and partywide. You even get an extra cc resist. You don't want to have lower damage, you don't want inferior mitigation, utility or sustain. What ARE other tanks allowed to be better at?
Because i'm sitting here comparing Warrior to Dark knight and i can't find anything that puts my job ahead of yours, but i can find a plethora of things Warrior does better than Dark knight.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

And why exactly would it be a bad thing if Warrior is worse at something than the other tanks?
You have the best invuln, sustained dps and partywide. You even get an extra cc resist. You don't want to have lower damage, you don't want inferior mitigation, utility or sustain. What ARE other tanks allowed to be better at?
Because i'm sitting here comparing Warrior to Dark knight and i can't find anything that puts my job ahead of yours, but i can find a plethora of things Warrior does better than Dark knight.

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Pretty much, but it feels like if warrior isn't best at everything people seem to complain until it gets that way.

Personally I don't even agree with the recent PLD buffs (6.5), PLD was in a nice spot, they already have a lot going for them I think GNB/DRK in their current designs should be outputing slightly more DPS then war/pld, as both have really strong values outside of just damage.

But if every tank is not fulfilling the same niche someone will complain until they "fix" a tank, instead of embracing its upsides and downsides, I get that we want to also avoid 6.2 and locking out tanks But I actually do think that was a DPS check issue more then anything else personally. Despite people saying it was "balance issues" which yeah some jobs were and are unbalanced, but I don't think the devs ever intended the DPS check to be that harsh personally.

I feel bad for dark knight mains, I wish I would enjoy dark knight more as the job has a lot going for it lore wise, but I personally can't just get into the current design. It being "best dps of tanks" was one of its main upsides, but now it feels like theirs literally zero reason to play it outside of if you like the job.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Pretty much, but it feels like if warrior isn't best at everything people seem to complain until it gets that way.

Personally I don't even agree with the recent PLD buffs (6.5), PLD was in a nice spot, they already have a lot going for them I think GNB/DRK in their current designs should be outputing slightly more DPS then war/pld, as both have really strong values outside of just damage.

But if every tank is not fulfilling the same niche someone will complain until they "fix" a tank, instead of embracing its upsides and downsides, I get that we want to also avoid 6.2 and locking out tanks But I actually do think that was a DPS check issue more then anything else personally. Despite people saying it was "balance issues" which yeah some jobs were and are unbalanced, but I don't think the devs ever intended the DPS check to be that harsh personally.

I feel bad for dark knight mains, I wish I would enjoy dark knight more as the job has a lot going for it lore wise, but I personally can't just get into the current design. It being "best dps of tanks" was one of its main upsides, but now it feels like theirs literally zero reason to play it outside of if you like the job.

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That's because streamers get their ego's hurt when another tank does 1% more damage on the parses and then they cry about it endlessly..
Then, their followers cry about it and it slowly becomes a community sentiment that only Dark knight and gunbreaker do damage.

https://youtu.be/FFK6jDpHDak

''The game is shit because warrior died'' When Warrior does EVERYTHING better than other tanks except for a 1% dps margin at the time.
When was the last time you heard someone ask a tank to swap to Dark knight over a Warrior?
I don't understand why we even have 4 different tanks when one of them gets to be the best at everything anyways. I'm just playing the incorrect job arbitrarily.
They could remove Pld Drk and Gnb and War players would still think War is bad because they don't have another tank to feel superior to in every way.

Thing I find funny about that, is WAR is quite literally the homogenization tank. In a lot of ways I view it as more of a job with a lost identity than DRK or the other tanks.

DRK used to be the gap closer tank. WAR now has 4 gap closers to DRK's 2.
DRK starts the shortmit trend and gives itself a personal shield on a short cd, gotta buff raw intution to do that as well.
GNB gets added and has a heal over time ability, gotta add that to WAR now with Enhanced Equilibrium.
PLD getting a rework cause its bad in Endwalker? Better give WAR an equal attention present with a buff to Shake it off! Even more HoT on WAR. Cant have the holy magic tank have more healing than WAR, especially not for the party.
People gravitating towards DRK for its heavy focus on burst damage and high synergy with the 2m meta? Can't have that, WAR buffs, now WAR is the burst damage tank.

Despite ALL this, the job is just boring, and whats worse is its the only job in the game that loses complexity and becomes easier the more you level it.
Inner Release is just kinda boring, especially compared to Berserk where you used to have to line up your gcds/fell cleaves to spend your crits proper. Everything WAR has is just given it itself for free, it honestly puts me on auto pilot and I dont want the other tanks to play like this.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Thing I find funny about that, is WAR is quite literally the homogenization tank. In a lot of ways I view it as more of a job with a lost identity than DRK or the other tanks.

DRK used to be the gap closer tank. WAR now has 4 gap closers to DRK's 2.
DRK starts the shortmit trend and gives itself a personal shield on a short cd, gotta buff raw intution to do that as well.
GNB gets added and has a heal over time ability, gotta add that to WAR now with Enhanced Equilibrium.
PLD getting a rework cause its bad in Endwalker? Better give WAR an equal attention present with a buff to Shake it off! Even more HoT on WAR. Cant have the holy magic tank have more healing than WAR, especially not for the party.
People gravitating towards DRK for its heavy focus on burst damage and high synergy with the 2m meta? Can't have that, WAR buffs, now WAR is the burst damage tank.

Despite ALL this, the job is just boring, and whats worse is its the only job in the game that loses complexity and becomes easier the more you level it.
Inner Release is just kinda boring, especially compared to Berserk where you used to have to line up your gcds/fell cleaves to spend your crits proper. Everything WAR has is just given it itself for free, it honestly puts me on auto pilot and I dont want the other tanks to play like this.

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I've been saying this for a while, but Warrior mains ARE the reason for homogenisation. Any time another tank does something better they want it and get it too, and so do all the others as to not disrupt the balance.
And yeah, i'll sooner quit tanking than play the fat overfed spoiled favourite tank that still manages to be the least engaging to play.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Thing I find funny about that, is WAR is quite literally the homogenization tank. In a lot of ways I view it as more of a job with a lost identity than DRK or the other tanks.

DRK used to be the gap closer tank. WAR now has 4 gap closers to DRK's 2.
DRK starts the shortmit trend and gives itself a personal shield on a short cd, gotta buff raw intution to do that as well.
GNB gets added and has a heal over time ability, gotta add that to WAR now with Enhanced Equilibrium.
PLD getting a rework cause its bad in Endwalker? Better give WAR an equal attention present with a buff to Shake it off! Even more HoT on WAR. Cant have the holy magic tank have more healing than WAR, especially not for the party.
People gravitating towards DRK for its heavy focus on burst damage and high synergy with the 2m meta? Can't have that, WAR buffs, now WAR is the burst damage tank.

Despite ALL this, the job is just boring, and whats worse is its the only job in the game that loses complexity and becomes easier the more you level it.
Inner Release is just kinda boring, especially compared to Berserk where you used to have to line up your gcds/fell cleaves to spend your crits proper. Everything WAR has is just given it itself for free, it honestly puts me on auto pilot and I dont want the other tanks to play like this.

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I remember really hoping they changed the heal on divine veil into a HOT because HOT feels more useful with how DV/shake works, but with warrior it's "why not both!" I really don't get warriors identity anymore, personally when I see warrior what I expect is a high damage selfish tank... but in reality its a High Damage party utility tank, maybe it will get passage of rocks next expansion that isn't a cone, just a aoe and mitigates 20% because PLDs extra raid wide is too much.

I'm quite happy with PLD being 1% behind (as long as it's not as bad to get gatekept from raids) but having awesome utility, being good in Prog, GNB/DRK in their current forms should be the big damage tanks, Unless they want to add more onto their kit (Not to say both are weak defensively currently, I actually underrated DRK's defensive value in raids).

It's also not like PLD, GNB, DRK are "bad tanks" they're viable and strong.
But whats the point in playing Any other tank then Warrior? It's already the best defensively, got the best invul, some of the best utility in the game, best sustain and it's damage is really high.

Theirs a reason why warrior is the most picked tank, PLD is starting to follow second to that with recent buffs (which again I don't think PLD needed at all), because theirs no reason to play a high APM tank with weaker utility when you can strictly just play the easier stronger option

Back in ShB I was saying the new DRK chassis was a decent base they could build on in future expansion.
I was so young and naive back then.

But anyway, DRK needs an identity and distinct gameplay back to make it interresting to play.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

Back in ShB I was saying the new DRK chassis was a decent base they could build on in future expansion.
I was so young and naive back then.
But anyway, DRK needs an identity and distinct gameplay back to make it interresting to play.

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Likewise. Queue Endwalker and they somehow managed to make the job even worse somehow... The fact they literally can't add anything to the job without at least doing a small rework is the only thing keeping my expectations from going any lower.

It's honestly a matter of if they'll want to change the meta or not, it'd take a lot of courage to turn back on homogenization and some of the smoothing of jobs of the past two expansions. I doubt they would do it, but I hope they do.