Do people not care enough or does the game do a bad job at teaching?

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Originally Posted by Celine_Aurora

If you are not pressing your actions that's not a job design issue, that's a you issue

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It is partially a job issue. Not to the extend that you have an active uptime of like 20%, as some players do, but you end up dying to stupid things and might end up with regular mistakes, because if the jobs are utterly unengaging to play you just zone out and mindlessly press buttons by muscle memory alone.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

It is partially a job issue. Not to the extend that you have an active uptime of like 20%, as some players do, but you end up dying to stupid things and might end up with regular mistakes, because if the jobs are utterly unengaging to play you just zone out and mindlessly press buttons by muscle memory alone.

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Sorry, but that sounds like an excuse, if the job is unengaging enough that you can't keep yourself from making dumb mistakes or falling asleep at the wheel for 10 whole minutes, and yet keep queueing for duties, that's even more of a you issue. And the kind of mentality that leads to no songs BRD because it's just a game bro, or I don't care bro.

Sorry if this feels all over the place.
One thing I've been wondering about this issue is if it's effected by what is perceived as "the end game" by someone that is in an earlier expansion. I started in HW and I recall not only having more actions than people now have but also things being in general more difficult. Part of that is unfamiliarity and another is the game just functioned different, but that slight challenge was always there and is completely lacking now. As more expansions came out and the community progressed through them they hit the various "speed bumps" in that content as it was released. If someone starts now, they have to get through all of that content in order to finish the MSQ. If a sprout ran into a speed bump early, what would that communicate to them about what to expect going forward. Especially if there are 50+ more levels of content to get through.

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Originally Posted by Celine_Aurora

Sorry, but that sounds like an excuse, if the job is unengaging enough that you can't keep yourself from making dumb mistakes or falling asleep at the wheel for 10 whole minutes, and yet keep queueing for duties, that's even more of a you issue. And the kind of mentality that leads to no songs BRD because it's just a game bro, or I don't care bro.

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Not really, had it happen even in savage on jobs that have just been reduced to mindless button mashing by design. When you do 1-2-4-1-2-3-Fell Cleave for the 50000th time because that's now the peak of warrior gameplay you just start finding pretty much anything more interesting...and then you miss which number you are on during P4S Finale.
And while I haven't played EW summoner in any savage fight I can absolutely imagine the same happening on that job, now that a majority of your gameplay consists of pressing the same 3 buttons.

Obviously this is not a thing that happens during prog, but we're at the point where certain jobs get their engagement only from the content you're doing with them and that usually doesn't last all that long.

The game teaches you? What does it teach you outside of "Don't stand in AoEs, Click the item on the wall to stop enemies from spawning(which I can't even think of a dungeon that uses that mechanic), and attack the same target as your tank"?

The game does a shit job at teaching anyone anything. But I can't really blame SE for that, it's a common thing in all MMORPGs.

Well... I just had a DNC in my party who didn't pick a dance partner at all at level 70, which made me think of this thread. What's the excuse this time? The game didn't force him to read and quiz him about his tooltips? I guess Yoshi-P needs to make a Hall of the Novice Reader to fix the amount of stupid going around.

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Originally Posted by Celine_Aurora

While I mostly agree with your points, I'm not a fan of the idea that the gigacasuals should be encouraged to sleep through and never learn through main quest duties only to hit a wall running when they queue their first EX. Personally I think this exacerbates the myth there's this great gulf between "casuals" and "hardcore" players instead of encouraging growth and a mutual enjoyement of the hobby.

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The encouragement is there starting at the EX level. There is plenty of incentive to participate in these duties through the rewards they give. But the biggest incentive is the thrill of battle. Starting here, players can no longer skate by with low effort. Yet this demand is too great for casual content and players.

I understand your point though, and I also agree to a certain extent that casual content can be too easy. But this is mostly due to ilv bloat inside duties. Casual content should never be less difficult than its release day, and the dev team should still find ways to challenge players through its mechanics.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

People that do not want to learn to play, should be subject to only playing with duty support.

The ToS actually has a clause that refers to 'lethargic players' and it is a violation of the ToS to not play to the best of your abilities.

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"Best of their ability" =/= up to your standards. This is also exactly why Yoshi will never allow an in game parser. This mindset is fine for savage and up. Maybe EX. For anything below it absolutely is not.

Duty support is exactly that: Support. It is not a means to service your annoyance with casuals by removing them from normal duties. Again. If you want challenge and effort, then I strongly suggest going into content EX and above.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Well... I just had a DNC in my party who didn't pick a dance partner at all at level 70, which made me think of this thread. What's the excuse this time? The game didn't force him to read and quiz him about his tooltips? I guess Yoshi-P needs to make a Hall of the Novice Reader to fix the amount of stupid going around.

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Evidently, your DNC ignored the level 60 starting quest, where a dance partner is explicitly required to move on in the dance battle on the beach. That's on the player. Period.

I think there are a lot of people who think themselves incredibly skilled that would never make it out of Greater Faydark.