I didn't think I'd miss Kaiten that much...

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Hitting positionals is one thing we still have, but some people want that to be removed too. Some bosses already don't have positionals, I can't wait for melee to be able to just stand wherever tf they like, having 100% uptime because the boss's hitbox is the size of a continent, and still get 10% more damage than the other roles because of the bloody 'ranged tax' or 'res tax' or whatever ridiculous explanation. What's the reasoning for 'why melee is justified in doing so much more damage than ranged in P7S', where 90% of the arena is 'you can hit the boss from here'?

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People that like gigantic boss hitboxes and/or want positionals removed have basically zero taste, hate fun and they're are as bad as the people that use the combo plugin.
Range tax needs to exist, but so does small hitboxes and plenty of positionals for melee to do extra work.
The range tax and melee having to work for uptime against small hitbox bosses + positionals is key and needs to exist at the same time, if one is removed then the other role lose their purpose other than providing role bonuses.

Could make an entire thread regarding positional removal. Players reasonings for removing it seems flawed to me. Just because Endwalker is meme'd as Meleewalker, does not make the entirety of FFXIV suddenly catered to Melee everything / Melee uptime / Melee positional / Melee Giant hit boxes - but so many hyper-focuses on current content because that's all that matters. And we don't know what the next patch or expansion has in store. Plus the fact not every Melee player worth their salt as mentioned before even asked for gigantic hitboxes or easy melee uptime. Fighting for uptime was a lot more exciting then big gigantic boxes. So it's not like I wanted them, its Square's design direction forced on us and we're like " okey-dokey ".

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Could make an entire thread regarding positional removal. Players reasonings for removing it seems flawed to me.

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I don't mind positional attacks personaly, but bosses spin around way too much right now, its not even the tanks fault, its so annoying when you position your self push the button for your positional attack and in that exact moment the boss turns around and you miss it, depending which melee you play, true north cooldown feels way too long.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

People that like gigantic boss hitboxes and/or want positionals removed have basically zero taste, hate fun and they're are as bad as the people that use the combo plugin.
Range tax needs to exist, but so does small hitboxes and plenty of positionals for melee to do extra work.
The range tax and melee having to work for uptime against small hitbox bosses + positionals is key and needs to exist at the same time, if one is removed then the other role lose their purpose other than providing role bonuses.

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I'm all for shrinking the hitbox down, but I'm completely whatever about positionals. I don't think they really add anything to the combat so I don't really care if they stay or go.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

How can you, on one hand, consistently call out WHM for being the stalest white bread imaginable, and then on the other ask for other non-caster classes to have their main filler be reduced to that same white-bread status?
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The only way to justify PVP combos in PVE is if SE were to add new actions that would replace that hotbar space, that are interesting to use

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You have answered your own question. What makes you think giving the stalest white bread class imaginable a 1-2-3 combo would in any way suddenly make it acceptable to play? For the same reason 1-2-3 combos aren't magically made interesting or choice-facilitating by the sheer incredulity of non-monk melee players. Push for better combat.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

You have answered your own question. What makes you think giving the stalest white bread class imaginable a 1-2-3 combo would in any way suddenly make it acceptable to play? For the same reason 1-2-3 combos aren't magically made interesting or choice-facilitating by the sheer incredulity of non-monk melee players. Push for better combat.

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Turning everything into 1 button isn't "better combat"

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Pressing Atonement after finishing Royal Authority isn't 'interesting', sure. But I still mess it up on rare occasions. It's something 'more' to think about than onebutton 'you are physically incapable of screwing up' mode. Same as how Kaiten and 'remember to save 20 gauge for it instead of mashing Shinten brainlessly' is not 'hard' per se, or even 'interesting' to some. But it's definitely 'more' than what we have now, where we just press Shinten when we're going to overcap, and spam mash it in raidbuffs

The only way to justify PVP combos in PVE is if SE were to add new actions that would replace that hotbar space, that are interesting to use

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People don't justify PvP combos as fun in PvE, but the PvP gameplay aspects where they can use utility and environment to their advantage. There are skills that have a direct change in PvP due to how unscripted and crazy damage can be. Binds/Stuns/knockbacks can have a huge impact in gameplay to create different opportunities for unique skills and environmental aspects to take into effect, and these are usually not part of your filler PvP combo. Your filler PvP button usually just does damage or does a small heal like in PvE, but your actual skills for engagement is on a much lower cooldown. The lower cooldown (like 15 to 30 second skills), coupled with engaging fights (disabling enemies that can really destroy your team or comboing your CC together) makes for a completely different gameplay experience.

This is something PvE lacks entirely as everything in PvE is now just a numbers game -- you heal more, you mitigate some damage, you shield damage, or you do more DPS. Then you do the mechanic properly because there isn't a way to prevent it outside of doing more dps to possibly skip a phase. Forgetting to press Dragondive in PvE isn't going to change much outside of just lowering your DPS during a burst window. There's simply too much scripted gameplay in PvE to deviate from doing your static rotation and burst window every 120 seconds. Simply put, the game is tailored to be played as a DPS who can execute a perfect rotation and not much outside of that.

Very few abilities that isn't just a numbers modifier and gain situational value very often outside of Expedient (also 120 seconds, so very few uses) exist in PvE. Very few abilities are Esuna'd or need to be Esuna'd, and in most cases only the healer can do the Esuna one player at a time on the GCD. PvE Gameplay is not very reactive as PvP works, it's very scripted to only correctly doing mechanics and there's no other way to resolve them. There's nothing really like sleeping/binding enemies matter anymore in general PvE content. There's nothing like knocking an enemy down and making them take incredible amounts of fall damage to whittle them away, or even disabling their cast of a certain skill -- and not by just pressing the interrupt role skill either (stuns simply don't work instead of having diminishing gains and letting the boss cleanse out of them). Stuff like that simply doesn't work on bosses and while it's good for game balance, it's also bad because there isn't much you can do other than properly dodge the bosses' mechanics and do the same kind of aoe on trash packs.

Can you imagine if there was parts of a map where you can just gather the enemies up a cliff, then yeet them away with Malediction of water and let them take fall damage or even push them into a lava pit to take high DoT damage and thereby ending them entirely? For ninjas in PvP, using Fleeting Raiju isn't just because it does damage for single target -- it's the stun-lock and gap closer that people use it. There's a lot more ways where you can gain utility from locking an enemy up in a position or to dash away from a bad position because the cooldown to these skills are low enough that it doesn't matter if you don't get aim for highest DPS out of them because their secondary effects are just as good in the right situations.

Sometimes, I think if we had PvP gameplay against many PvE enemies that act as a mini boss with much faster cast time speeds, but have the ability to be locked down accordingly like in PvP, things would be very different in how players tackled the game.

I wouldn't have minded that too much even if I still hate the idea of guaranteed crits, but kaiten granting direct hits would definitely have reduced the feeling of everything hitting like a wet noodle now.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

I wouldn't have minded that too much even if I still hate the idea of guaranteed crits, but kaiten granting direct hits would definitely have reduced the feeling of everything hitting like a wet noodle now.

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that's what I'm talking about the entire time.
Direct Crits still look Good and being able to throw them out through Resource Management would still be awesome

Quite an interesting thread!

I'm a post-kaiten SAM (namely I didn't try/play as one until after kaiten was removed) and therefore never experienced it. A pity, since I enjoy the job and it sounds as if kaiten made it more effective.