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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
i have stated this in a previous post, which you seemed to have missed, which I also point out WHY making BLM so strong would be an issue (post #53). I did also explain in a later post that I do find it hard to articulate the point in words, but hopefully the thought process is there for someone to try and follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
Also, nerfing SAM causes an issue where people wouldn't take SAM. This has already been a steep learning curve for them during Stormblood where Samurai flip flopped between being way too strong and too weak.
You keep failing to answer WHY it should be top. I can make the same reasoning behind every job and come to the same conclusions. If I am fully utilising Monk, and playing well, why should I not be top DPS? If I am fully utilising Dancer, and playing well, why should I not be top DPS? If I am fully utilising Astrologian and playing well, why should I not be top DPS?Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
This is why you need the data to back up claims and at the moment, the data says BLM is where it should be.
And if all you want is the questions from the OP answered, here they are:
1. Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vortagh
2. Because the data being used is the wrong data to accurately determine where BLM's place in the DPS charts is, which gives a false understanding of balance.
3. No reason, its DPS is where it should be.
4. My thoughts are the wrong data was used to come to the wrong conclusion. Which is also why I tried to find out what they were basing this all on in the very second post of this topic.
BLM DPS
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03-26-2023, 01:42 AMMikey_R
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03-26-2023, 01:53 AMTurtledeluxeNo, it's just that I am following your guidance of using logic and you don't like it. The selfish DPS category as it turns out is not separated by role. You separate it by choice because "won't someone think of the Samurai? The SAM worked so hard for this!". Being equivalent DPS to a BLM does not mean people will pick BLM over SAM-- SAM is still top DPS and easy to prog with. It still has a more popular play style.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
You cannot use this logic for other classes and roles. Are they selfish DPS or not? Saying a RDM is selfish DPS is changing what it is-- it is a hybrid class that brings other things to the fight a BLM does not. All a BLM and SAM bring to a fight is DPS and there is zero reason why their DPS should not be equivalent that you have provided except, frankly, your feelings.
Welcome to the world of posting based on your feelings. #nerfSAM -
03-26-2023, 02:33 AMMikey_RYou have completely, either by choice or just forgetting, failed to take in what I have said in various posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
DPS are split into Melee, Casters and P-Ranged. They each have a slot in the party, generally with it being 2 melee, 1 caster and 1 p-ranged. SAM is a melee and therefore competes with MNK, DRG, RPR and NIN, BLM is a caster and so competes with the caster slot with SMN and RDM, MCH is a P-ranged, and so competes with the p-ranged with BRD and DNC.
Each role has a set amount of DPS they are expected to bring, this means SAM has to bring enough DPS to justify using it over the others, whilst not bringing too much to invalidate the other melee roles. BLM has to bring enough DPS to justify using it over the other casters whilst not invalidating the others, MCH has to bring enough DPS to justify using it over DNC and BRD.
At no point is the BLM infringing on the SAM slot in the party, as there is no crossover there. You CANNOT compare the DPS of the 2, ignore everything else, and make a claim. I have said several times that balance is a nuanced thing, and several times, you keep ignoring components that define why something is balanced in the way it is.
Going onto if they are selfish or not, yes, they are, but that is half the answer. SAM is a selfish melee, BLM is a selfish caster. The role they take in the DPS paradigm is just as important as how they do the damage.
Now again, if BLM does too much damage in the role of caster, you invalidate the other 2 casters. Make it too weak, then it isn't worth bringing over the other 2. It is a very hard balancing act which the dev team has already been through with SAM in Stormblood.
None of what I have said is based on my feelings. I have no stake in BLM or SAM, I only care about the balance. It is also ironic that you initially claimed I was being too obsessive over it, treating it as an experiment and now I'm using feelings? My reasoning has not changed, my arguments have not changed, so, which is it? Am I following the logic and going through everything with a fine tooth comb to make sure what I say is as accurate as I can make it, or, am I just saying things based on my personal feelings. These are 2 opposing views so I realistically cannot be both at the same time. If you want to change my mind, you have to bring a convincing argument and no, fight design is not one (I have already addressed this as well) as, until SE decide that they want to change how they balance their jobs, then we have to go by the framework set. -
03-26-2023, 03:38 AMTurtledeluxeDropping SAM a tiny bit to make it more in line with BLM does not mean it suddenly becomes more useless than all the other melee. That sounds to me like feelings. I am pointing out that you are arguing this based on feelings, because earlier you implied doing this is somehow bad and I think it's funny that you are doing it now. Yes, I understand that melee and casters are separate and compete against their respective roles. That doesn't explain why SAM bringing 1-2% less DPS to the fight somehow ruins the game or makes it less useful than other melee than it already is as a selfish DPS. In the same way, if you nerfed BLM right now it would still deal significantly more damage than the other casters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
These are selfish DPS classes. They should do the same DPS. It's like a subclass of DPS classes that needs to be taken into consideration, or else you will continuously get topics like this one. If you don't want to nerf SAM then buff BLM and deal with the other casters crying about it. Again-- those are feelings. If bringing the selfish DPS classes in line with one another requires all sort of other considerations that update other jobs, then they should do that. I'm not arguing against that.
I don't buy your theory that BLM having competitive DPS with SAM (whether that means nerfing SAM or buffing BLM) suddenly makes BLM the most popular class over. Imo, that's why the BLM gameplay is what it is. It isn't for everyone. As far as making other casters more valuable aside from maybe RDM I just don't see it. I'd also say that if the modeling that you use requires all kinds of asterisks and explanations, then why do we use it? Imo players should be able to join the game, and have a certain expectation of their class. Right now it's more like "this caster is harder to use than other classes, but it does top DPS, well except for a SAM, because well, melee DPS is as such that SAM needs to be sky high".
I see no reason why a new player whose priority is playing top DPS wouldn't choose a SAM over a caster. Why would you willfully pick the more inefficient one? "ah because a new player will surely consult with the TOP logs and understand it's because they're a caster". Nonsense. You're basically counting on aethetics or ranged gameplay to draw people to BLM and imo that's pretty sad when the game could just be fair. -
03-26-2023, 04:50 AMValence
I'm at a loss. Last I checked and every month without failing, BLM has been clustered with the top group of DPS jobs on rdps metrics for ages. What is there to even buff, when it brings the exact same kind of raid dps than the best DPS (melees) already?
Is this one of those threads where people have literally no clue how to read rDPS charts again? *sigh* -
03-26-2023, 05:05 AMTurtledeluxeBLM doesn't bring the same rDPS as melee. What are you referring to? People can keep liking it, it's still not true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
Also why are some people who use these charts so incredibly jaded? Maybe someone hasn't looked at the logs before. I haven't. There could be a chance I am misreading them. And? Why do you immediately react to that with antagonism instead of explaining yourself? -
03-26-2023, 08:00 AMMikey_RReducing SAM damage makes it less desirable compared to the other melee DPS, so it is picked less and FYI, 1%-2% is actually quite a large difference in this context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
Yes, they are selfish DPS classes, so is Machinist, should Machinist also do competitive damage alongside SAM?
Just because you do not buy the theory does not mean the theory is invalid. However, I never said it would be the most popular, it would however become more desirable because it brings more to a fight than the other casters. As for how FFlogs displays data, yes, there are caveats and nuances in how the data is displayed, this is why it is important to understand the pros and cons of each data representation as nothing is going to show the whole picture in a clear light. Welcome to the world of balancing DPS. If you have a better model to accurately represent what each job brings to a fight, feel free to let everyone know.
I could say the same about any job. If we were having this same discussion but SAM and BLM were switched, why should I play SAM when BLM is higher. The argument for making BLM stronger (or reducing SAM) is not a good one. If all they care about is doing the most DPS, then they do not care which job it is.
Also, as a reference, Ultimate fights tend to be very skewed in measuring DPS, in any sort of way. With so many phase transitions and therefore downtime, it tends to favour jobs that can build resources when there is no target present. To give some examples, BLM can prepare 3 Umbral Hearts and have Polyglot charging up, SAM can build Kenki and Meditation stacks, Monk can generate Chakra, however, Ninja cannot generate Ninki, DNC gets no Four Fold feathers etc. Generally, when people look up job balance, they tend to look at the latest Savage tier as those fights have far far fewer downtime phases and so that advantage is minimised. -
03-26-2023, 09:14 AMCelestiCer
I'm sure if BLM wasn't fine? Square would have updated it by now. Although maybe a blessing in disguise... it remains to be the only Job to get the Love-child treatment to not receive anything negative...
https://i.postimg.cc/Ghv2ZRvF/Square...BLMis-Fine.png
Square thinks BLM is fine, remains Unchanged. I missed this picture, it was so funny and possibly so sad for anything but BLM -
03-26-2023, 09:15 AMTurtledeluxeAnd not having utility makes BLM less desirable in various cases. And no I am not trying to go back to the "should BLM have more utility" debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
Why should it not? What is the point of a class being a selfish dps if it does not bring the most dps possible? You may as well not even call it that. SAM is selfish dps-- BLM and MCH are just selfish (in cases where they do not compete with SAM).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
In your opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
I haven't said BLM should be higher than SAM, I said they should be equivalent. But you keep painting it this way to make me look bad, which is fine. My posts are there for people to read. You aren't changing my commentary lol. You've done this several times and I keep correcting you. And one more reminder that selfish DPS-- all they bring to the fight is DPS. Regardless of what the game has done with them historically, I am saying that (imo) selfish DPS should bring top DPS to the fight when played optimally and should all be (more than other classes) challenging to play. That would make a lot of sense to me. You bring up MCH and it's funny because don't MCH's complain, like a lot?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-for-Machinist
Yes that makes sense, and it's good that sometimes BLM matches SAM. That's how it should be. Not sure why you keep debating it when it clearly happens in the game and the game is not ruined. Thank goodness some fights exist where BLM gameplay is properly rewarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
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03-26-2023, 01:10 PMVictorSpoilshttps://i.redd.it/d4kq2iepoxs81.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by CelestiCer