100% agreed. It takes all of the clunkiness that scholar had (what many say is the best designed healer) and literally improved on everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elucesta
People being out of Sacred Soil Range? Meh We'll center it on the healers so they can control the placement better AND give it 5 more yard radius.
People made embrace macros to get the fairy to heal when a tank was above 80% or to control who got fairy heals? We'll take that away from SCH but give it to SGE via Kardia.
Healing AND mitigation? We'll combine them in one button (multiple of them) for Sage.
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04-01-2023, 10:11 AMDeceptus
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04-01-2023, 10:47 AMRenathrasNot everyone finds BLM fun. If find it to be the single most un-fun Job in the entire game. So much bloat, a rotation that's all over the place and doesn't make sense (it "makes sense" on a base level like RDM does "Oh, so you're trying to do this...", but trying to actually do it optimally makes no sense "You...use an ETHER here?!?"). And hey, WHM did SMN's infinite safety nets before they were cool. SMN stole the paradigm, not the other way around. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
Most WHM players probably don't want it to be BLM. (also, for all the talk of solo duties...the majority of most people's playtime isn't spent in solo duties...)
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Design-wise, WHM's design is good. I still think SGE is a bit better, but WHM's does what it's supposed to do. It's not supposed to be BLM, as no WHM at any point in FF history has been like BLM.
SGE, on the other hand, completely abandons everything SGE is supposed to be...and somehow still turns out to be a pretty solid design. -
04-01-2023, 09:18 PMOsmond
SGE is great to play, but too easy for its own good. It has more healing than a SCH, has more DPS than a SCH, has more mitigation than a SCH. The job ends up becoming too forgiving so I can see ppl like it more than SCH.
They will be forced to overhaul SCH if they make SGE even more forgiving in 7.0. -
04-02-2023, 01:29 AMKatishThe En- spells made whomever the WHM applied it to, do a followup spell that did BLM magic or applied that element to their weapon and whenever there was a physical attack it did damage. (XI, XIII, some spin-offs). Example, Enthunder would cause thunder damage after a physical attack, it would be cool to resee them as actions as it is also in this game but an enemy thing, probably won't happen as they've done away with the element system. (Would be interesting if they re-added it in this perspective). Regardless, what you said may hold some precipice but isn't 100% true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
To be fair also, most games in the series were turn-based and required you to use healing. "White mages" also included some mixture of another class(see any whm after V). The earlier iterations( before V) of the series whms place was locked in given white mage was the only answer to AoE healing or the best one (it could stand alone). In this game, that isn't true given other classes can heal (even ones that aren't healers)
In this game:
- Healing is required very little
- Some of the more iconic spells to the class have been removed from white mage or aren't a thing: Haste, Slow, Shell, Protect, Dispel (Not a thing {In Bozja(?)})
- Nothing has been added to fill in gaps
- White Magic does not answer anything by its lonesome like it does in for the rest of the series [so it makes for a bad comparison when you compare the rest of the series to the current white mage in 14]. Example: NulTide/Barwater blocking water damage, that's not a thing here.
- Healer downtime is a real thing, 1 button press.
WHM in its current state in 14 is unlike any WHM in the series (in a bad way) and the healers in general TBH hold the same regard. Healing is a joke in this game and, as mentioned, is required infrequently enough to make it unjustifiable to have as many heal buttons as the healers do currently. -
04-02-2023, 10:32 AMRenathrasWHM in XIII is Medic, not Synergist. Synergist had the En spells, not Medic. Some spin offs and XI (where RDM did it better) aren't exactly the best cases. Also...doesn't WHM in XI only have the Holy element En spell?Quote:
Originally Posted by Katish
It has BAR spells, like Barthunder. Maybe that's what you're thinking of?
True that many were turn based, but not all of them have been.
WHM in its current state is like many other WHMs in the series. If anything, it's far more offensive.
Many WHM Jobs have Cure spells, Protect/Shell (sometimes -ga versions for AOE, sometimes both at once with Wall), Raise (Life/Life 2/Reraise), Regen, Esuna, and Holy and that's it. That's FFTactics WHM right there. X-2 has Reflect, Dispell, and Haste/-ega. FF3's, origin of the Job system, White Mage didn't have Shell, Raise 2, Reraise, but did have Libra, Aero/-ga, Stone/-a, Sight (opens the world map...how novel), Teleport (which we all have), and stat effects Toad, Mini, Confuse, Silence, and Poisona to specifically cure Poison at low levels when the player didn't have Esuna. FF5, second game to use the Job system, had a WHM that added Blink to its spell list but dropped Aero/Stone magics, but picked up Arise (Life 2). FF4's Rosa adds Hold (stun), Slow, and Float (mainly used in two dungeons to prevent damage from stepping on damaging tiles in the non-battle environment maps); she also has Pray (chance of a party heal or failure doing nothing) and Aim (when using a bow, making a slower attack that is guaranteed not to miss). Porom from the same game, the other White Mage, has the same spells, does not have Pray or Aim, instead having Cry (makes enemies easier to steal from) and Twincast (combination attack with her brother, which is a bit more of a story thing). Neither have Stone or Aero spells. In fact, NO White Mages other than FF3 in the mainline series have Stone or Aero spells (in FF7, they aren't even from a standard Materia, and are skills enemies use, I think exclusively...)
Tactics Advanced is a slimmed down version of Tactics (doesn't even have Holy), though it has "White Combo". A2 has Refresh (which isn't an MP recovery, it cures things that Esuna doesn't, because Esuna in that game...doesn't). And the OG Final Fantasy 1 White Mage had an expansive ability list...because it didn't have Esuna and had individual heals for various status effects, the Cure line of spells, the Heal (basically Medica) line of spells, the Dia line of spells (OG WHM had Dia, not Aero/Stone, which seems to ONLY be a WHM thing in FF3 specifically), Holy, Protect, Blink, Invis, Silence, Dispel, Exit, Life, Full-life, five Null- spells (including NullAll), and the "Stone" you might see in the list is Stona, the cure for petrification (falls under the status effect heals).
WHM in 14 is only unlike other WHMs in the series in that it has a lot of powerful heals with no cast times or MP costs (and unlike Pray, are both large and have no risk of failure), and has possibly the largest slate of offensive spell lines of any Final Fantasy White Mage, having Glare(Stone), Dia(Aero), Assize, Holy, and Afflatus Misery. While it only has 5 at one time, the only other WHM to match that was FF3, and only if you include the AOE versions of Stone and Aero as separate abilities...in which case they're both tied at 5. Not being a menu based game, FFXIV doesn't have separate status effect cures for each status effect (opting for only Esuna) and doesn't have a "better Raise" (or Reraise). It doesn't have Protect or Shell, but has Divine Benison and Aquaveil/Temperance (the latter 2 of which do the same thing). It further has extra utility and modifier spells like Plenary Indulgence and Presence of Mind (a self-only Haste spell)
It actually stacks up pretty well against any of the WHMs in the single player games...
Healing isn't "a joke", it's just not balls to the wall intense. And I'll note WHM in FFXIV is already at risk of being LOW in number of heals compared to several WHMs in the series. If it had many less, then it WOULD be "unlike any WHM in the series (in a bad way)", actually.
It may be more forgiving, but I don't think that's why people like it more. Its kit isn't at war with itself. I've said it since at least SB, and a lot of other people have said it as well, SCH's kit fights itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osmond
Some people absolutely love that, but a lot of people abjectly hate it. Energy Drain is fighting your AF heals like Soil, Excog, and Indom (the first two of which are cool abilities people, WANT to use), Faerie abilities are unavailable during Seraph (Fey Blessing, Aetherpact) and Dissipation (all of them), Dissipation gives you AF but doesn't boost your AF/oGCD healing, only your magic (GCD/cast) heals, and even though it gives you AF, the expended AFs for its duration (since Eos is dismissed) don't contribute to Faerie Gauge, your Faerie is sometimes unresponsive and abilities can be ghosted (this is way better than it used to be, but still CAN happen), your level 60, 70, and 80 capstone abilities are at war with each other. SCH spends so much time fighting its own kit, that it is clunky, unintuitive, and feels bad to play. Worse, it's signature heals - Adlo, Succor, and Sacred Soil - are all abilities you rarely, if ever, want to use, and the cast heals are less responsive than SGE's due to their cast times.
SGE, on the other hand, takes SCH's base and fixes...all of that. Its signature move is Kardia, which it uses all the time. Kardia doesn't have any ghosting issues like Eos. Your Addersting and Addersgall are two separate gauges, so you never feel bad about using abilities like Kerachole or Taurochole, its level 60 (Physis II), 70 (Haima), and 80 (Panhaima) abilities aren't at war with each other (though the latter two are best used in series not simultaneously - but they don't lock you out of the other nor out of any part of your kit), no part of the kit at all is at war with any other part, and even its shields are more responsive than SCH's, including its oGCD Haima/Panhaima/Holos ones. It doesn't have the clunk that SCH has for any of these things, either.
While SGE doesn't exactly match the big brain archetype in execution, its design just works while SCH's design has the player fighting with their kit and the kit fighting with itself.
Again, some people love that...many people do not. So it's not about being easy, it's about not being clunky. And as many people have said before, clunk is not challenge, it's bad design. -
04-02-2023, 11:13 AMKatish1. En skills are white magic what class they are associated is moot given the series has integration. Just cause the spin-offs didn't make "good" use, doesn't mean they didn't exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
2. That is not the reason why the job is unlike any other white mage iteration, it is so because it's live and unlike other live "white mage" interactions. It tries to play most into the healing portion without contributing to the other aspects of the role fully noting that is live and scripted as you yourself brought up the bar skills.. (and I brought up previously, did you read my post?) This is a healer issue and not mainly a white mage issue lack of meaningful skills (cure,regen..etc yes are iconic but useless given the game schema). And technically untrue on the largest offensive white mage damage rooster given most of the games have combined the job with another. Example Yuna has summoning and access to explore any other job
abilities via the grid system. Although it might have the most WHITE mage attack skills, this does not change a thing given the dynamic of the role and where it plays (this is not turn-based that requires healing pre V)
3. It does not as it gets boring real quick single playing, doable sure...boring with 1 button spam.
4. Healing is a joke when tanks are highly self sustained and experienced. I don't heal often if at all...with Warrior in particular I never press a heal button in dungeon pulls or any content outside maybe savage. It would be less of a joke if knowing me healing was needed on large pulls, but alas you don't need to heal.
I quote white mage as white mage is usually just a tack on to another class in games or is seen as a hybrid to something else. I should say healer, as unironically most healers in other games also have a good portion of damage and support control.
Also cut usage of "some people like" arguments as they are a controvience of fallacy.
I also omitted out the stuff my comment already addressed. That was a long response and a lot of fluff. But I did want to answer your main points. -
04-02-2023, 11:24 AMAravell
I honestly wonder why the people who complain about "clunky kit" on SCH feel the need to cry for a rework to "bring SCH more in line with SGE" when SGE is literally right there. I honestly find SGE much clunkier than SCH due to Eukrasia alone, I also think SGE is badly designed because there's no interactivity within the kit. SCH locking out parts of the kit means you have to plan ahead and be smart with your cooldown usage, it's one of the only enjoyable aspects of healing kits remaining to me.
Also, the "fact" that SCH needs to spend every drop of aetherflow on ED to be optimal is a myth that needs to stop being spread. Aetherflow stacks should be used on Indom/Excog/Soil as necessary to free up GCD time for both you and your cohealer, wasting all of them on ED is selfish and puts all the burden on your cohealer unless you wish to use your GCD on Succor instead of Broil, no one should do this in a random party. A single crit Broil is also worth way more than Energy Drain. -
04-02-2023, 11:41 AMRenathras1. In FF11? They're classified as "Enhancement". It's not moot when we're talking about White MAGES not White MAGICS. "...made whoever the WHM applied it two..." was your wording, btw, not "whoever the White Magic User applied it to".Quote:
Originally Posted by Katish
2. Uh...what case are you talking about? FF11 is the only other "live" version with a White Mage, and WHM in FF11 doesn't do damage most of the time and only heals/buffs in parties, generally. FFX's Yuna is a Summoner, not a White Mage. Like her class and stuff is Summoner. I also gave you the full list of pure White Mages through the series (well, more or less) and they don't do that. When you're combining with other Jobs, you're not talking about a White Mage anymore. A FFT White Mage with a Black Mage SubJob has their White Mage part and their Black Mage part. You don't argue that Fire is a White Mage spell, because if you had that White Mage subjob Chemist, they wouldn't have it.
3. Boring TO YOU, not to everyone. Many people find it fun and engaging.
4. I heal all the time in 4 mans, and even more in 8 mans.
I honestly don't understand this, either. I never understand any of the "make X Job more like Y Job arguments". I get the arguments for giving Jobs things that are seen as NECESSARY (WHM being the only Healer Job right now without a party mit is noticeable in some content and hampers its viability compared to the other three somewhat since they all have an answer to that problem that WHM does not), but in general, as long as the bases are covered, I don't think it makes sense to argue for one Job to play more like some other Job. If people like said other Job, they should just play it instead. Maybe it doesn't QUITE match the aesthetic they want, but that's kinda just...the way life is sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
SGE has all kinds of interactivity with the kit, though. I never will understand this argument. SCH locking out doesn't mean you have to "plan ahead", it just means it's clunky. You can generally use whichever CD and still do fine. "Oh no, I used Dissipation and now there's big damage where I should use Seraph and Consolation instead! Whatever will I do! Oh, wait...Recitation + Adlo + Deployment Tactics, lol gg" (or that shiny Indom or Sacred Soil you just got from those AF stacks). Not much planning ahead there, just dealing with the clunk. And if you're doing super high end optimization, you have a healing plan anyway, for all the Healers, so that's not really relevant.
Your counter on ED use of AF is also flawed. You're VERY rarely going to need to use a GCD heal. Your oGCD tools (non-AF) are more than powerful enough for most issues so that you aren't having to use a GCD. Your GCD uses are generally going to be a Deployed Critlo for something specific, in which case Indom isn't going to save you from that. I agree that Energy Drain is a nearly pointless amount of damage, but read what people say in the surveys; they genuinely feel bad about using AF for other things because they know it's suboptimal except in very specific situations. Oh, and in 2 out of 3 cases (cohealer is WHM or SGE), they're passively throwing around so much AOE healing between Physis/Karachole (which also doesn't stack with Soil) or Afflatus Rapture/Assize that your missing Indom is RARELY going to be necessary, and in the case of SGE, your missing Soil wouldn't even count.
Again, I don't think it should be changed - it's how SCH and SGE are unique from each other, and from the other Healers, and diversity of Jobs is a good thing, imo - but to say SCH is the better DESIGNED is just...no. I can't agree to that at all. SGE is far better designed, but it's not for everyone. And that's okay. And SCH isn't for everyone. And that's okay. And WHM and AST aren't for everyone, and that's okay, too.
Keep the Jobs diverse, give people more options. Best way to design, imo. -
04-02-2023, 11:41 AMRein_eon_OsborneEukrasia not having a toggle off button outside using Macro & clickin the buff imho is an oversight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
Also, lmao how dare that we are required to plan ahead, eh? :rolleyes:
Honestly after plenty of encounters with said myth, I get a feeling whoever spouting that probably just read things and haven’t (or worse, nihil!) actually dive into those content long enough themselves, a.k.a. parroting.Quote:
Also, the "fact" that SCH needs to spend every drop of aetherflow on ED to be optimal is a myth that needs to stop being spread. Aetherflow stacks should be used on Indom/Excog/Soil as necessary to free up GCD time for both you and your cohealer, wasting all of them on ED is selfish and puts all the burden on your cohealer unless you wish to use your GCD on Succor instead of Broil, no one should do this in a random party. A single crit Broil is also worth way more than Energy Drain.
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04-02-2023, 11:50 AMAmenara1. Technically, technically it's a white magic spell that uses enhancement magic skill, like protect and shell... but yeah, spell categories get weird if you try and compare them between FF11 and FF14 since the games are so different. Also as a side note, PLD has enlight, not WHM, and it uses Divine magic skill to make it even more complicated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
2. The thing with WHM in FF11 is that it doesn't constantly do damage because the game is completely different. They need to keep a haste rotation going, need to keep their buffs up, need to heal and esuna as necessary, and have to manage their MP while doing it so they will end up just going into resting stance sometimes. That being said, the job is easy enough to be controlled by a multi-boxer using a script in non-super serious content so...
4. It sounds like your warrior tanks in dungeons are failing you then, I feel personally feel offended if I see my healer using a GCD heal outside of recovering from an aoe or whm getting lilies :(