Endwalker was a great mess(SPOILERS)

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Originally Posted by crimsonwitch

Look, a better way to phrase my thoughts.
-issues with graha's timeline and elpis...
-hydaelyn pretty much didnt even want to tell the ancients about hermes and his creation. thus the sundering of the worlds was partly her fault. even if she did and solved it all back then, we wouldn't even be here in eorzea. so the story cancels itself.
- odd pacing, we are playing dressup with bunnies while the world is ending at radz at han.
- they made zenos follow us for 4 years and we don't even get to hear his last words?

i am done editing this thread, i've concluded that people are just mad i'm critiquing their favorite games' story. i started in 2019, and square had a great thing rolling with shadowbringers but they just dropped the ball. im probably gonna end up quitting.

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I've read every single MSQ cutscene in the game, some multiple times, and been playing since beta.

I also read books as part of my job.

I agree with you on a lot of this, especially the terrible pacing. Especially stopping to deal with the lopporits or celebrate multiple unbirthdays while the world is apparently ending.

Primals being bad is a point FFXIV hammer up to SB.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Primals being bad is a point FFXIV hammer up to SB.

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...and then, right at the end of this very expansion, a throwaway line of dialogue reveals that Primals aren't actually bad after all.

They're not going anywhere. Nor was it critiqued when Eden was used to restore the Empty over on the First using...Primals. A very similar process to what Zodiark did back before the world was Sundered and even after the world was Sundered, we learn that he was the only thing keeping the Final Days at bay - therefore buying time for everybody.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

...and then, right at the end of this very expansion, a throwaway line of dialogue reveals that Primals aren't actually bad after all.

They're not going anywhere. Nor was it critiqued when Eden was used to restore the Empty over on the First using...Primals. A very similar process to what Zodiark did back before the world was Sundered and even after the world was Sundered, we learn that he was the only thing keeping the Final Days at bay - therefore buying time for everybody.

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Lack of consistency will always be a problem with FFXIV, you can tell they had an idea and they flipped to another one. As I said before, the more you think about everything the less sense it makes. It's like how inconsistent tempering was, during ARR it happens if the primal was around, yet during HW Cid pilot the airship during the whale thingy. Later on during SB it worked differently and we can shield others from it.

Oh, and that last bit, what I understood is that said primals were in reality just regular concepts of creation magic. Witch make the whole Ancient temper from Zodriak even more silly, like why would the ancients temper themselves?

Edit: I just forgot to mention: both twins not getting temper when metting with their grandpa during Bahamut coil raid series. Not to mention primals tempering primals... ouch.

Been thinking about the Moon Ark, wouldn't it have failed? The Final Days happened due to stagnant celestial eather currents which was due to Meteion's Song of Oblivion, and it was only held back because of Zodiark.
With Zodiark gone the currents start to stagnate again and the plan was to escape on the moon.
But when they travel, they would have no protection against the Song of Oblivion, so the Final Days would have happened on the Moon too.

Was it just a very bad plan?

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Lack of consistency will always be a problem with FFXIV, you can tell they had an idea and they flipped to another one. As I said before, the more you think about everything the less sense it makes. It's like how inconsistent tempering was, during ARR it happens if the primal was around, yet during HW Cid pilot the airship during the whale thingy. Later on during SB it worked differently and we can shield others from it.

Oh, and that last bit, what I understood is that said primals were in reality just regular concepts of creation magic. Witch make the whole Ancient temper from Zodriak even more silly, like why would the ancients temper themselves?

Edit: I just forgot to mention: both twins not getting temper when metting with their grandpa during Bahamut coil raid series. Not to mention primals tempering primals... ouch.

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The reason is probably the Primal´s aether ammount. Prime Zodiark had such ammount not even the Ancients could ward against it, meanwhile the rest of primals are tiny specks of aether in comparison thus easy to ward against, for beings of huge power like the Ancients aka having the Blessing of Light

When we face Zodiark not only is faction of his power, but also Fandaniel wants to crush us not tempering anyways, and when Luisoix was tempered was after he reliquished all the power he gathered, so his aether was overwritten with Bahamut's imprinting

Think on aether as water, if your own is a river, someone pouring a cube of different water wont change anything, but usually primals for normal people are akin to having a small stream being overwritten by a water inundation.

Seems Venat aether protection spell does not only affect the wearer but also an small area around them, thats why they can "shield" others from primals tempering

I just wanna spend more time with my 'New old friend' again, SE did that precious boi a dirty!

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

The reason is probably the Primal´s aether ammount. Prime Zodiark had such ammount not even the Ancients could ward against it, meanwhile the rest of primals are tiny specks of aether in comparison thus easy to ward against, for beings of huge power like the Ancients aka having the Blessing of Light

When we face Zodiark not only is faction of his power, but also Fandaniel wants to crush us not tempering anyways, and when Luisoix was tempered was after he reliquished all the power he gathered, so his aether was overwritten with Bahamut's imprinting

Think on aether as water, if your own is a river, someone pouring a cube of different water wont change anything, but usually primals for normal people are akin to having a small stream being overwritten by a water inundation.

Seems Venat aether protection spell does not only affect the wearer but also an small area around them, thats why they can "shield" others from primals tempering

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EW mentioned that Ascians gave a "faulty" summoning spell to other races that incorporated tempering (to keep the process going), so they knew how to summon without tempering. Before EW I was of your opinion, know I just think devs wanted to go to X before EW and then switched to Y.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

I agree with you on a lot of this, especially the terrible pacing. Especially stopping to deal with the lopporits or celebrate multiple unbirthdays while the world is apparently ending.

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We know that Fandaniel's got the Final Days started back on the planet, but aside from that we know absolutely nothing about what's going on. The entire game has changed; right up until then, our enemies were the Telophoroi, Fandaniel, Zodiark, and Zenos. The Telophoroi are no more, Fandaniel and Zodiark are dead, and Zenos has decided to just go away a while. Now we're facing a new threat, one we know little about. The only thing about the Final Days we know is that creation magics went wild and killed everyone. But those magics don't exist anymore, so the nature of the threat is unknown. Also the cause, and potential fixes, are unknown as well. We also know it hasn't happened yet, though it'll happen soon.

But that emissary of Hydaelyn we meet on the moon has some clues, and we learn it almost right away after Zodiark. Then, we're sent to talk to more of Hydaelyn's stewards, who we are told are created just in case the Final Days starts again as a contingency. Going to have a chat with the Loporrits is by FAR the smartest thing we can do, because we have no idea what we're up against. The ancient hand-crafted creations of god, who were made *for this exact scenario*, might be a worthwhile people to talk to since all of the other immediate threats have passed.

I honestly don't get how people missed the point of the bunnies. Heck, the problems at Radz-at-Han don't even start until a while after we return from the moon -- what, were we supposed to just go back to the planet and twiddle our thumbs until the apocalypse hits? Or do what we've always done, seek out answers and gather allies?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

If someone wiped out my family, friends, neighbours and homeland I'd consider such an individual to be abusive.

I'm not sure why such a stance would be considered to be unreasonable, in all honesty.

Let's not forget that Hydaelyn herself described the Sundering as an act that was cruel and without justice, so...

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I'm convinced that people don't actually read stories anymore, they just react to the moments in front of them entirely unmoored from their context.

The narrative function of utopias in stories is that they aren't possible. They're unsustainable. You can't live in paradise, because that's just not how life works. FFXIV constantly, constantly, constantly hammers and hammers this point at the player. The Ea had a "perfect" society. Didn't help. The people who summoned Ra La had a "perfect" society. It didn't work. The narrative purpose of Amaurot's flailing at armageddon was that they were trying to return to perfection at any cost, which again is impossible. Now, quibble with how muddled that portrayal gets in the story, sure. But pretending like Amaurot was a perfect society that was just murdering one subversive away from staying perfect, and you're the person for whom the point of utopian narratives goes whistling straight over your head. There's always juuuuuust one more adjustment to be made. Just one naysayer to murder. Just one policy to update. These stories have been with human society for thousands of years because they're telling you that thinking Utopia is just around the corner is nonsense. Stories are just as much theme as they are sequence of events, and modern fiction criticism fixates unhealthily on the What over the Why. It's not that the sequence of events is unimportant, it's that the story is trying to tell you something.