Unpopular Opinion: SE Is Not Obligated To Add New Jobs Every Expansion

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Originally Posted by Keramory

I think what irks me more about the idea of newer jobs or the inability to make them is it would be SE's own fault for falling into the trap. They bend backwards to make every job the exact same thing with different animation effects and then struggle with making the jobs unique. This would have been less of an issue if they didn't over accommodate with the fear of people not being able to play every single class ever for end game content (which they'd still be able to do but they were afraid stupid players would lock others out for their job choice).

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Making jobs unique has nothing to do with adding more jobs or not; it has everything to do with this
https://i.imgur.com/YOpQ01c.png
https://i.imgur.com/i633U0w.png

1. Strict dps requirements
2. Strict healing requirements
3. Strict time requirements (every second matters in savage/ultimate)
4. Doesn't allow for experimental gameplay

Anyone that's played mmos long enough knows how classes are balanced around the hardest content. Thus the games are usually seen as unbalanced like FFXI because high end content consists of the same classes. Or they're seen as boring and 1 big blob of all tanks having 123 + self heal and 1 burst phase like War/Drk because they don't want to keep any jobs out of high end content. Stormblood was the last unique expansion, Heavensward was better at this, and A Realm Reborn was perfect in terms of job identity and creativity.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

I think what irks me more about the idea of newer jobs or the inability to make them is it would be SE's own fault for falling into the trap. They bend backwards to make every job the exact same thing with different animation effects and then struggle with making the jobs unique. This would have been less of an issue if they didn't over accommodate with the fear of people not being able to play every single class ever for end game content (which they'd still be able to do but they were afraid stupid players would lock others out for their job choice).

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If every job is "the exact same thing with different animation effects," then it would make it easier for them to create new jobs, not harder. The problem, if any, is in creating more assets to accommodate new jobs, balancing them with existing jobs, and possibly even handling the increased length of time people would have to acquire more weapons and how it fits into their reward structure.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Actually, they have promised some features in 6.0 that will release during patches, and it's common practice for at least a few of the things they use as selling points to come in patches - sometimes half-way through the expansion's patch cycle.

Ishgard Housing, normal raids and alliance raids are examples of things that are already promised but won't come in .0. I have a feeling Island Sanctuary won't be out for .0, just like Firmament Restoration wasn't.

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Yes, I addressed some of that in the same paragraph of the part that you quoted, but I also note that plans can change.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Making jobs unique has nothing to do with adding more jobs or not; it has everything to do with this


1. Strict dps requirements
2. Strict healing requirements
3. Strict time requirements (every second matters in savage/ultimate)
4. Doesn't allow for experimental gameplay

Anyone that's played mmos long enough knows how classes are balanced around the hardest content. Thus the games are usually seen as unbalanced like FFXI because high end content consists of the same classes. Or they're seen as boring and 1 big blob of all tanks having 123 + self heal and 1 burst phase like War/Drk because they don't want to keep any jobs out of high end content. Stormblood was the last unique expansion, Heavensward was better at this, and A Realm Reborn was perfect in terms of job identity and creativity.

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I completely agree and thats exactly why Yoshi reworked the classes the way he did. There are perks to how they've built their classes in FFXIV in 2.0. I was around for Mnk fire fist spam in Arum in 1.0 or the Garuda BLM abuse... which took out the elemental wheel.

However it's my opinion (and of others) that I would have kept the elemental wheel and some of those issues vs the state of the classes as we have them now. I personally loved the idea of having multiple classes leveled and having unique configurations for specific content. The immediate argument to this of course is not everyone has the time, which is fair. But it's that or grinding in one way or another, it's an MMO after all. Obviously there needs to be balance between the two different trains of thought, but I'd argue to my death bed taking out the elemental wheel was an over correction, for example.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

I completely agree and thats exactly why Yoshi reworked the classes the way he did. There are perks to how they've built their classes in FFXIV in 2.0. I was around for Mnk fire fist spam in Arum in 1.0 or the Garuda BLM abuse... which took out the elemental wheel.

However it's my opinion (and of others) that I would have kept the elemental wheel and some of those issues vs the state of the classes as we have them now. I personally loved the idea of having multiple classes leveled and having unique configurations for specific content. The immediate argument to this of course is not everyone has the time, which is fair. But it's that or grinding in one way or another, it's an MMO after all. Obviously there needs to be balance between the two different trains of thought, but I'd argue to my death bed taking out the elemental wheel was an over correction, for example.

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Yes.

There's a reason why games like the Souls series are held in a high regard.
The amount of builds you can make in that series are endless. From elemental builds, to stats-based builds (strength, det, faith, int), to buff and debuff based builds. There's so much you can experiment with and run the content in brand new ways, I love that kind of customization.

Even though the Souls series balance isn't perfect, it is damn fun and any/most builds can be good at pvp or pve.

Ultimate just needs separate balancing; they have the template for ultimate now, save that template for all ultimate fights and give us the regular balance for dungeons, extremes, and savage (?).

I actually didn't know about that Garuda bit and how that took out the elemental wheel, such a huge loss for the game. Dungeons could've been so much more dynamic with elemental conditions changing for dungeons depending on the time of day and/or other factors within the dungeon. People can look down on FFXI but it had more going for it PVE-wise than XIV, it just needed devs that cared to buff the weaker jobs.

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Originally Posted by Shinklet

I kind of wonder, at what point will we start seeing less jobs?

Animating and rigging the multiple races for the multiple animations that every single job gets each expansion is no easy feat.

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The biggest wall is actually weapon models, not animations, and we have already seen them approach the limit with both GNB and DNC in 5.0. I suspect that they may be able to cover a max of 20 full jobs.

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That said, I'm very happy for 2 jobs every expansion and I'd love a curve ball of even 3 sometime.

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They tried 3 full jobs with HW but deemed it unfeasible to repeat which is why both StB, ShB and EW have 2 new full jobs. More Limited jobs are a definite possibility though.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

I was around for Mnk fire fist spam in Arum in 1.0 or the Garuda BLM abuse... which took out the elemental wheel.

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I was not around in 2.0.
Can you explain to me what happened?

Agreed especially since the jobs themselves have to sacrifice a quirk or two for those jobs to be unique. Id rather have jobs be refined than having new ones. Also a nitpick here but but adding on to it, the jobs starting later and later every expansion (EW now requiring to reach 70) just makes less sense and should just focus on the jobs than creating new ones. Those poor DNC fans buying the game and learning u need to either inorganically overlevel to enjoy the job and nerfed capacity in MSQ or buy a jump pot

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Yes.

There's a reason why games like the Souls series are held in a high regard.

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Yeah, and players who like that kind of game would play that kind of game. While players do like a challenge, what is challenging can differ from player to player, and it seems to me that not everyone who plays FFXIV are into the kind of challenge comparable to the Souls series, not in FFXIV anyway, where you're forced to group up with other people.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

I was not around in 2.0.
Can you explain to me what happened?

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Well for Garuda BLM had a period where they were so strong against her that one of the popular strategies was just to go basically 8 man black mage party and mana burn her.

Honestly if you've played FFXI it's issues like that where one system and a perfect storm got a little bit too out of hand lol. There have been other times in FF history where a BLM burn party worked.

The reason the wheel was removed however I do not think was simply due to that incident. In general I believe they were trying to encourage a more complete use of spells while also ensuring each job was valuable in situations.

Say if ifrit was weak to water then bringing a black mage that can only cast fire, lightning, and ice was not that helpful. So they wanted to devise a system that allowed players to consistently use their kit and not be ostracized in content.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Yes.

There's a reason why games like the Souls series are held in a high regard.
The amount of builds you can make in that series are endless. From elemental builds, to stats-based builds (strength, det, faith, int), to buff and debuff based builds. There's so much you can experiment with and run the content in brand new ways, I love that kind of customization.

Even though the Souls series balance isn't perfect, it is damn fun and any/most builds can be good at pvp or pve.

Ultimate just needs separate balancing; they have the template for ultimate now, save that template for all ultimate fights and give us the regular balance for dungeons, extremes, and savage (?).

I actually didn't know about that Garuda bit and how that took out the elemental wheel, such a huge loss for the game. Dungeons could've been so much more dynamic with elemental conditions changing for dungeons depending on the time of day and/or other factors within the dungeon. People can look down on FFXI but it had more going for it PVE-wise than XIV, it just needed devs that cared to buff the weaker jobs.

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I've thought, just as a fun idea to toy with, that perhaps the concept of 'limited' might have done well if it was expanded massively and funded thoroughly - and by that I mean limited becomes the new 'main' and then the extremely challenging content that needs balance then gains it's own set. Plus this way they can spend more time fleshing out each job as that then becomes more of a 'main' content (as in some jobs may be so much more than just 'different color / pattern of skills', like how blue mage has to gather their stuff). So MSQ and related challenge content uses now very unique and varied jobs, but as they're balanced pretty loosely it's fine (although some alliance raids, at least specific bosses, are not as loose lol).

I mean, if you think about it the balance is quite a bit less important for normal content (often things are designed in such a way that the majority of your party doesn't even need to contribute)- so they've a lot more room to build for 'flair and unique style' and then for things like PvP and ultimate where there is little room for such concepts.. they could save some money and perhaps pitch to similar hardcore audiences by making that system friendly to each other (tight high technical skill / balance in both PvP and ultimate).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I've thought, just as a fun idea to toy with, that perhaps the concept of 'limited' might have done well if it was expanded massively and funded thoroughly - and by that I mean limited becomes the new 'main' and then the extremely challenging content that needs balance then gains it's own set. Plus this way they can spend more time fleshing out each job as that then becomes more of a 'main' content. So MSQ and related challenge content uses pretty unique and varied jobs, but as they're balanced pretty loosely it's fine (although some alliance raids, at least specific bosses, are not as loose lol).

I mean, if you think about it the balance is quite a bit less important for normal content (often things are designed in such a way that the majority of your party doesn't even need to contribute)- so they've a lot more room to build for 'flair and unique style' and then for things like PvP and ultimate where there is little room for such concepts.. they could save some money and perhaps pitch to similar hardcore audiences by making that system friendly to each other (tight high technical skill / balance in both PvP and ultimate).

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Balance may be less important for normal content, but there's a difference between saying that and what a Blue Mage can do and also what it can still potentially do as they further develop the job in future patches.

Groups can still wipe in normal dungeons, so I don't think making limited jobs be the main jobs for normal content is the intention regardless of less balance needed.