Ditch TP in exchange for unique systems.

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Originally Posted by Firon

I'm pretty sure the dev team can make some uniqe systems for classes most of them are the 11 dev team they did do SCH DNC COR BLU and PUP so i think they will make much more ways to play classes then we have now.

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All of those were based on TP and Mana though.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

All of those were based on TP and Mana though.

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They still all worked different and SCH used stratagems to enhance its combat not tp based or mp based, DNC used tp but it was the first class to use tp for other things besides ws, and they also had some kind of point system as well but i forgot what it was called, and bluemage was just different cause equipping spells gave different traits etc to make you different from the next bluemage, Pup was was different, the master was the same as a gimp monk but the auto made the whole class play different from the other's. It's lots of things they can do with the system but no matter what system they add its just a mask for how often you can use an skill.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

And aren't these types of things just TP in reverse, ok so I don't have to hit anything to get it built up I just have to wait...wait I have to wait for TP to build too, so let's replace waiting for HP/MP/TP with waiting for stamina/runes/combo points.
Come on if your just gonna suggest systems that are essentialy what we already have with a different look and name then ask them to change the way it looks and what it's called.
The function of the "runes" is the exact same as MP(1rune = 100MP, cure costs1rune/100mp), Combo points are TP(I land 5 hits get a combo point == 1000 TP, 1 combo point can do tier 1 WSs = 1000TP for tier 1 WSs) ...

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If you change how TP works, you're changing the class itself. I admit that many proposed systems will be similar to TP. Although the systems will be fundamentally similar, they will work in vastly different ways.

First of all, I think we do need variations in TP. It makes classes unique. Right now the biggest problem is that every class sort of falls into this same pattern of "BUILD TP THEN USE MOVE." There isn't a lot of character to that. Modifying TP systems, presenting them differently, or even renaming them gives classes an identity. For instance, Warriors should start with max TP and have to mediate their TP usage during battle. This would give warriors great opportunities to do burst damage and identify them as sources of great burst output.

Class individuality would also help mitigate the problems with class stacking on certain fights. If you need burst providers for only a PORTION of the fight, that means it would be beneficial to have a warrior or a black mage along with you. However if you stack black mages, you're more likely to have a harder time on the fight due to MP usage. Although this creates challenging requirements, it wouldn't be insurmountable and would encourage the use of a wide range of classes/jobs.

Presentation is everything. I understand that quest grinding is still grinding: but it makes me more willing to continue a journey because it creates a progression arc/goal that motivates me to continue. Flat out grinding on something does not motivate me, and actually demotivates me. Renaming or presenting TP systems in a different view is the same concept: it creates a presentation for a class that makes it unique and allows something for players to really latch onto.

Truthfully, I think a lot of these posts really come down to the fact we have so few skills to use that are truly unique.

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Originally Posted by Firon

They still all worked different and SCH used stratagems to enhance its combat not tp based or mp based, DNC used tp but it was the first class to use tp for other things besides ws, and they also had some kind of point system as well but i forgot what it was called, and bluemage was just different cause equipping spells gave different traits etc to make you different from the next bluemage, Pup was was different, the master was the same as a gimp monk but the auto made the whole class play different from the other's. It's lots of things they can do with the system but no matter what system they add its just a mask for how often you can use an skill.

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Trust me, most people can understand that they play uniquely even though it was tied by the "same systems", but you forget you mentioned FFXI and therefore your point is nullified according to these forums.

Speaking of nullifying points:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Occult_Acumen

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Adloquium

See? SE is more than capable of working something out if they so chose.

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Originally Posted by Ava

I had a huge detailed post written up about 6 months ago with ideas for alternative resource systems, but the reason I never posted it is because I wasn't really sure if TP was the problem for me, or if it was the combat in general. Now, I don't think TP is the problem, but rather class design. As others have pointed out, I'd rather see classes that use the resources we have in unique ways, maybe a class that spends HP to use spells, but can restore HP with TP, or classes with spells that costed TP instead of MP (think Dancer from XI)....

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^That I can go with, don't get rid of the part that isn't actually broken but do fix the broken parts.

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Originally Posted by Platinumstorm

The difference between resource mechanics is how you spend or generate them. Your example of 1 mp = 1 rune is being too superficial.

Think of these differences to get a better idea:
MP = regenerated over time, faster out of combat
Runes = could be regenerated via certain ability uses and spent via other abilities

Differences like that create unique gameplay elements to classes that suit certain people better than others.

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There's abilities that do these things, be the straight ability: Blissful Mind, Parsimony, Necrogenisis; or WSs: Blood Bath, Sucker punch, Full Thrust;
It's not that superficial to say that 1rune = 1 spell = 100 mp; it's just a matter of scaling, in it's present state we have 3000MP as a 50CNJ so I could cast 30 cures, unless your suggesting that my rune cap should be ~10 but then we're not scaling very well as we level so again all you've done is change the scale things are being done on.

In the case of pets, pull from PUP/BST for uniqueness, they were as much as anything is, and they worked well.

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Originally Posted by northernsky

Yeah, that's the trade-off if TP considerably boosts spells and abilities potency.

You could alternate, for a moment in the fight, between a more agressive style based on TP-boosted abilities but fast MP depletion, and a classical system with little to no TP gain but steadily replenishing mp pool.
Also, if, say, thundaga consumes half the mp when used in combo and tp > 1500, or parsimony recovers more mp proportional with TP, there would be ways to play for a while on "TP mode".

Honestly I have not thoroughly thought up that idea, just said that, if well balanced, it could lead to interesting strategies

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This to a degree happens already, as a mage if your weapon is drawn you gain more of a bonus from it, but sacrifive your MP refresh(not the trait), with it sheathed you have the refresh but lose the stats.

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Originally Posted by Tibian

If you change how TP works, you're changing the class itself. I admit that many proposed systems will be similar to TP. Although the systems will be fundamentally similar, they will work in vastly different ways.

First of all, I think we do need variations in TP. It makes classes unique. Right now the biggest problem is that every class sort of falls into this same pattern of "BUILD TP THEN USE MOVE." There isn't a lot of character to that. Modifying TP systems, presenting them differently, or even renaming them gives classes an identity. For instance, Warriors should start with max TP and have to mediate their TP usage during battle. This would give warriors great opportunities to do burst damage and identify them as sources of great burst output.

Class individuality would also help mitigate the problems with class stacking on certain fights. If you need burst providers for only a PORTION of the fight, that means it would be beneficial to have a warrior or a black mage along with you. However if you stack black mages, you're more likely to have a harder time on the fight due to MP usage. Although this creates challenging requirements, it wouldn't be insurmountable and would encourage the use of a wide range of classes/jobs.

Presentation is everything. I understand that quest grinding is still grinding: but it makes me more willing to continue a journey because it creates a progression arc/goal that motivates me to continue. Flat out grinding on something does not motivate me, and actually demotivates me. Renaming or presenting TP systems in a different view is the same concept: it creates a presentation for a class that makes it unique and allows something for players to really latch onto.

Truthfully, I think a lot of these posts really come down to the fact we have so few skills to use that are truly unique.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Trust me, most people can understand that they play uniquely even though it was tied by the "same systems", but you forget you mentioned FFXI and therefore your point is nullified according to these forums.

Speaking of nullifying points:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Occult_Acumen

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Adloquium

See? SE is more than capable of working something out if they so chose.

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Yes, and then again Yes.
There were a couple other posts with ideas of alternative ways to gain/spend TP/MP/HP even, I think again that makes far more sense than changing how the number is shown or it's scale or even it's name. New unique abilities that utilize this resource system that is essentially what everyone is trying to suggest anyway.

Wether it's generated by taking dmg dealing dmg or casting spells, and no matter what we call it, or how we scale it, at it's heart it's all the same. It's how it's being utilized that needs work.

And yay me for not actually offering a single suggestion in this post ^^

Good thread, i second the idea of being more innovative by diversifying the combat system for each job, to give each job a truly unique experience as opposed to just mostly different skill animations and numbers, it's a bit too repetitive and dull as it stands and pretty much a copy of XI combat system.

It would really be an excellent spin to the combat system to implement sub systems in place to make the combat and job system more interesting, unique and fun. Have each truly bring something significantly different and unqiue to the table.

I think this thread also addresses the shortcomings of the current battle/TP/HP/MP system and the lack of their utilization as mentioned several times already.

Seeing as SE is trying to bring a new entertaining experience, i hope they consider these ideas. It doesn't necessarily mean the current system have to be scratched off, but could well be improved and expanded on.