I believe the idea of 'The Healer must DPS' comes from the fact that noone in the party wants to see the healer just standing around for 5-12 seconds.
But the issue is because its so easy to top-off tanks and people with off-gcd heals + a single cast, there's usually nothing TO heal. That or the heals are just so bloody strong that a single cast restores most if not all of the tanks health. So if there's nothing to heal... you either stand or DPS.
And people hate to see others just standing for extended periods of time.
The idea that we need to DPS must go.
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08-05-2019, 12:08 AMUbbernaut
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08-05-2019, 12:16 AMTaikaNot only that but also because the hardest content in the game simply requires healers to DPS in order for the group to be able to beat the enrage timer - even when your tanks and DPS are pushing 100% optimal DPS. It's a combination of other group members wishing to see their healers playing as actively than every other player in the group and the fact that healer DPS is required to beat content. Even though the majority of the content in the game can be cleared with zero DPS healers, that's not an excuse for them to slack when they're able to contribute more. Healers should put in just as much effort than all the other group members, and if they're only healing, that won't happen unless their group is way undergeared or eating a huge amount of avoidable damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubbernaut
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08-05-2019, 03:22 AMSylveSo tell your DPS to stop slacking, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodi
Yoshi-P has already stated that they tune raids with 0 healer DPS. Meaning if it was your healer DPS that got you through the fight, Your DPS need to get better. Tanks too.
Theres always times we can fling Damage around. The problem with this community is that they took that extra DPS a Healer was doing out of boredom and decided it was now expected for Healers to DPS above all else.
The Devs misstep in Alexander certainly didn't help that mindset, but they've been staunchly against balancing encounters that way since.
BTW, fun fact. Healer dps is as simple as it is because we interrupt it all the damn time in order to heal the Party. Maintaining the DoT aside, we basically either do full DPS or no DPS. No weird middle ground as we awkwardly put up multiple DoTs before getting back to the nukes like it used to be.
Its better this way, as it encourages those who typically wouldn't use their DPS as much to slide them in. As they slide them in, they get more comfortable with it and start doing it more.
Of course, you'll always have your outliers that simply refuse to cast a damage spell ever, But since the encounter design had those kinds of Healers in mind anyway, its no skin off my back.
The end result is that all my Eden runs are solo heal funtimes because the co-healer is too busy being Green DPS to do their damn job. -
08-05-2019, 03:46 AMEaMettAt ilvl for that content. Not min ilvl. No way are you clearing titan this week without healer dps, even if everyone in your party is 100 percentile you would still be short multiple k dps. That's considering ALL your dps do 14K AND both your tanks do 8K.. You would still be short something like 3k dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylve
How long do you think you need to wait for everyone to be geared enough in order for your average dps to pull 14k and average tank to pull 8k? Answer is a while (I'd be surprised if that even were a thing at all this tier). You'll never clear without healer dps because you're either 1) in a party of people who can't pull those numbers and you don't clear 2) in a party of players who pull those numbers and they kick you because they're tired of you sitting there doing nothing for 70+% of the fight.
So even if SE put a party together to test 0 healer DPS, geared them appropriately (not min ilvl) and they managed to clear, that has absolutely no bearing on real life since anyone good enough to make that happen would require their healers to dps, and anyone not good enough would need their healers to dps.
Bottom line is, healers will need to dps in savage. Claiming otherwise is just deceitful.
PS: I also wouldn't be surprised if the ilvl they test the no healer thing at is the max tier ilvl for said fight. Aka every member has all tomestone/crafted/augmentations available at that fight + potentially weapons from the ex trials that are released during the tier (that we don't currently have access to). Of course this is speculation on my part but looking at the numbers it seems like a fair assessment. That's many weeks (months?) of farming -
08-05-2019, 03:59 AMDeceptusThis is just misinformation. Healer DPS isn't taken into account when DPS requirements are made for bosses. That is per Yoshi-P himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
The reason healer dps is required is groups are undergeared for the content they're trying to down and healer DPS gives them a bit of breathing room / mistake room BECAUSE the dps aren't 100% optimal. No one except the best players in the world are.
1) Average players generally aren't in savage level content.Quote:
Originally Posted by EaMett
2) Good Players are ALREADY pulling 13K+ and tanks pulling ~7300 DPS at the 75th percentile with the lower end coming in at approximately 12K.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...s=68&class=Any
Look, I advocate for healer DPS as much as the next guy, but at least keep your arguments honest. -
08-05-2019, 04:06 AMHalik
I'm all for having healers just healing.
But the Devs need to design around healers needing to heal way more often then they do because you are otherwise standing around. Too many fights are built around "Big boss does the big AoE that almost kills people!" And then the healers top everyone off within a couple GCDs; then what? It should honestly take longer to heal people up, and bosses shouldn't just always hit you for most of you HP when they do, it's silly.
If healing and damage intake were paced out for longer periods, healers would be forced to heal more and spend more time using GCD heals. Until then, healers won't just be healing, no matter how much the devs ask us to. They need to design the game around healers healing if that's what they want. -
08-05-2019, 04:17 AMEaMett1) let me rephrase: Average raiderQuote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
2) 75 percentile on titan week one means nothing. It's normalized percentiles over a data set constituted of people who have managed to cleared titan week one. We're talking about people who normally parse purple if not almost all orange. Just take a look at eden prime and suddenly that drops to 10k and 6k for 75%. That's already a more representative figure.
My argument was honest. -
08-05-2019, 04:20 AMDeceptusAnd with those 10K numbers, most of those Eden Prime raiders won't see a titan clear for months if they see it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by EaMett
Decent (average) players were doing 6K dps at lvl 70. If you can't even be doing as well as people were at lvl 70, there is something wrong with your playstyle. -
08-05-2019, 04:35 AMTaikaThe fact is, you can't beat Eden Savage 4 right now without having your healers DPS even when your DPS and tank players are perfectly optimised. Whatever Yoshi P says about its design doesn't change how the game actually works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
Edit: And adding on to this, while this is true right now for the best, perfectly optimised raid groups in the world, for everyone else this will be true for a long time in the future, even after they get higher item level gear, because they're not perfect players in perfect gear in perfectly optimised groups. A great raid group with 75% ranking members will absolutely need that healer DPS in order to beat content for a long while, and your average (50% ranking) raid groups may even need it all the way until they add Echo.
It is extremely misleading to claim that these fights don't require healer DPS and that DDs and tanks will just have to 'get good', if what you're asking from them is, in the best case (which literally isn't even possible now!), playing in perfect gear, perfect setup, and perfect optimisation, to be some of the very best in the whole world, and only so that you could let your healers play at under 50% (being generous) efficiency. Even if that would be possible for a raid group at some point of this patch cycle, would that be a sensible or fair thing to do?
Look at the minimum group DPS requirements for Savage fights. Then look at how high your DDs and tanks would need to rank to be able to reach them without any healer DPS. Then think again if the fights are designed to be completed without healer DPS or not. -
08-05-2019, 04:51 AMEaMettThose 10k players are still at the 75% mark. It just shows that healer dps will be necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
The 6k was for tanks. Also worth noting there's a bit of a difference between past DPS stats and current rDPS so that will also have to be taken into account. I'm not sure about this but it also feels like DPS overall was lower going into this expansion. Maybe it's just me but it feels like it's harder to pull the same numbers when I pick up my 70s. Might be on a per job basis though. The lvl 70-80 dps gap doesn't seem that wide with current gear.
Anyways, my point was that most groups will need healer dps all the way up until very late in the tier and those who don't would very likely expect you to dps anyways.