Stop Making Should-Be Achievement Gear.."Optional Gear"

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

Have you ever been to Cedar Point? Water used to be free there. Now it's sold. Though you can still get water from fountains. Times change. No part of business operates in complete stasis.

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And thats what I'm proposing with both but not entirely equal

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

Yes, but then there's no reason to buy it if it can be obtained in game.

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I don't think you're getting the point. All the dyes on Mog Staton can be obtained in game. You just can't sell the MS ones. But. As I just said, they're in game too. What's the point of buying the red magitek on MS when the original is in game? It's just a reskin... and can fly. But the original, by all means, can be received for free in game. They're both very well the same, just not equal.

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Originally Posted by Kuroneko_Jutah

How do you know this? Are you on the FFXIV development team?

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Nope, don't need to be.

The assets were already created and budgeted or they wouldn't have been in the previous year's event, they already exist. The code, the ID strings, the NPC dialogue are all there. Unless you're going to say that the entire game is continuously operating at a loss to the point that creating and reissuing event items is what's keeping them in the black?

Not likely or we would have seen a massive merging of servers as i can assure you those are costing the developers far more money than a broomstick mount.

I also know this because had you paid attention to the post in full you would realize that the practice of reissuing event items is one they used to do, interestingly enough it's also a practice almost every single subscription based MMO on the market continues to do.

So unless SE is doing something massively wrong... then no. It costs them nothing to re-issue annual event items.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

If a company goes "This is our service and this is what is included in our service charge" and then starts taking items out of that package for no reason than to charge separately for them you can be sure there will be consumer blowback.

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Can you show me where Square Enix ever said that? They used to give people a second chance at seasonal items, now they don't. There was no formal policy in place for the former, nor the latter. What basis do you have for assuming they would remain free forever?

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Originally Posted by Ryel

In fact its the exact reason that when cable, internet, and phone providers update their packages for new subscribers they dont go back and ninja the customers on existing plans, they keep them as they were for previous subscribers, because thats what they signed up for (also contracts but y'know).

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Contracts are kind of important in this case, since they are literally the reason this happens at all.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

So can they decide to charge for it? Sure, they can.

Most companies however deem the practice unethical (lol they don't want to deal with the blowback) so they don't do it and consumers have the right to voice an opinion if they disagree with the service.

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No company considers charging for something unethical. Because if they did, they would go out of business pretty quickly. Companies split off products that were previously included in a package, or stop giving things away for free, all the time.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

Allowing players to re-obtain seasonal event items in-game was something this game allowed before the Mogstation, it was a feature of the game one could count under what their subscription covered. Then when the next year came around suddenly the vendors no longer provided those items and you could "look forward" to them being charged for an additional fee on the Mogstation.

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If you counted on that to be part of your subscription, that's on you. That was never promised. And they gave subscribers a chance to get every item from 1.0 before they started charging for anything.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

The argument is "Why am I suddenly paying an additional fee for something I didn't have to before?"

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That's not an argument, that's misunderstanding how business works. And besides, you're not paying an additional fee, since you indicated you don't buy the cash shop items. What they have done is stop offering something they used to offer for free. Much like they stopped offering the original version of Diadem, or the entirety of 1.0 (which free for some time before they started charging for it, I might add). It's their game, they can do that, and every user should expect it. One day they'll shut down the servers and everything you ever earned or even paid for will be gone.

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Originally Posted by Clethoria

And thats what I'm proposing with both but not entirely equal

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Yes, but then there's no reason to buy it if it can be obtained in game.

Here's the issue. It costs money to create content. That we can all agree on. Looking back to the Theme Park and water example. The park can continue to hand out free water in cups, but the issue is they're giving away the cups for that water, and those cups are not obtained for free, they have a price. So should the park just write those cups off as an expense, or charge for it to increase profits. Most would; and do, now charge for that cup.

So transposing that over to XIV, if it costs more to create extra content, where then would you suppose the coverage of those costs would come from if everything can be obtained in game? If you increase the monthly sub cost, you drive customers away. If you add it as DLC/Mogstore people get angry sure, but typically stick around.

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Originally Posted by Clethoria

I don't think you're getting the point. All the dyes on Mog Staton can be obtained in game. You just can't sell the MS ones. But. As I just said, they're in game too. What's the point of buying the red magitek on MS when the original is in game? It's just a reskin... and can fly. But the original, by all means, can be received for free in game. They're both very well the same, just not equal.

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You're right, I'm not sure I'm getting your point. = /

The dyes at best are extremely random to obtain in game. And even though you may get one, there is no certainty that it's the one you are after. So adding them to MS eases that if you have that extra change to throw at SE.

And I might be wrong on this point so please do correct me if I'm wrong, but the Red and White Magitechs; while they are in the game, are no longer obtainable. Therefore were added to MS to give those that missed their chance to get them, so they could have the chance to have them, albeit at a cost.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

You're comparing digital items to physical items, but let's roll with that for a second.

Imagine if you were at a Theme Park and water came free and was that way for over 10 years, then out of nowhere they charge you 5$ per bottle of water one day you show up. Wouldn't you first reaction be "what the?".

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Well there is a big difference. Water is something we need to survive. We NEED it. That is like selling provoke in the cash shop.


The more appropriate argument is something we want, like saying there is a shirt the theme park gave for free for years and then all of a sudden started to give out a new shirt. The old shirt would be placed in a shop where it was still purchasable. While this may be unfair for those who did not get the shirt, they were still given the same amount of time for those who did get it for free. They are also given the chance to get the shirt for currency and still have the chance of getting the new shirt for free.

Really...everyone wins. The regulars get a new shirt every year or so, the company makes money from the old shirts, and the new goers have the opportunity of buying the old shirts they missed out on.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Can you show me where Square Enix ever said that? They used to give people a second chance at seasonal items, now they don't. There was no formal policy in place for the former, nor the latter. What basis do you have for assuming they would remain free forever?

If you counted on that to be part of your subscription, that's on you. That was never promised. And they gave subscribers a chance to get every item from 1.0 before they started charging for anything

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If you're asking for a clause in the ToS or the EULA then no you won't find one.

But generally the practice you're asking about falls under consumer-business goodwill. That the expectation, quality, and cost of services rendered wont suddenly change.

It's the same reason players don't expect them to suddenly start charging for any other number of game interactions that we currently have access to even though they technically could, according to the ToS and EULA nothing really stops them, they have the option should they wish. However we dont expect them to start charging for raids resets (some free to play games actually do charge for this) or various other game features, because we pay a recurring subscription. It's one of the draws of the game itself.

Its part of the subscription based MMO model.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

No company considers charging for something unethical. Because if they did, they would go out of business pretty quickly. Companies split off products that were previously included in a package, or stop giving things away for free, all the time.

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And it doesn't always work, you know why?

Because people speak up about it or take their business elsewhere.

If everyone just shrugged their shoulders anytime it happened it would be far more commonplace. Its why we give feedback, surely such a concept isn't that foreign is it?

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Originally Posted by Talraen

That's not an argument, that's misunderstanding how business works. And besides, you're not paying an additional fee, since you indicated you don't buy the cash shop items. What they have done is stop offering something they used to offer for free. Much like they stopped offering the original version of Diadem, or the entirety of 1.0 (which free for some time before they started charging for it, I might add). It's their game, they can do that, and every user should expect it. One day they'll shut down the servers and everything you ever earned or even paid for will be gone.

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In all honesty it doesn't affect me, I have the items, I was there for the events.

But judging by the thread it effects other people, and as a consumer I can speak up for and agree with them as well.

When I used the quote for the statement of the argument I don't mean myself personally, but it is an illustration of what the situation actually is. And it's not about whether or not you take something with you when the servers shut down or what content is no longer in the game but the user experience and consumer/business interaction.

SE as a company wont know what is and isn't okay if people don't give feedback on the matter, which is... exactly what I'm doing. I'm not sure how you haven't picked up this point across 3 posts, it hasn't exactly been subtle.

But if you wish to sit there and say "Well it's fine the way it is!" then by all means continue to do so, that's your right as a consumer, just as it's mine to disagree with the practice.

This thread is so full of back and forth circle jerk it's ridiculous. These threads pop up with every new cash shop addition too. Aren't everyones arms tired yet? It's really quiet simple. SE is a business, they are in it to make a profit, and the cash shop obviously works because the stuff sells. I see TONS of the cash shop items being used in game every day. It's not going to change any time soon and SE isn't getting rid of the cash shop or scaling it down at all. Might as well get used to it or just quit if it upsets you that much.

I hate the cash shop as well but putting your thread in all caps just makes you look like a tool if anything.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

SE as a company wont know what is and isn't okay if people don't give feedback on the matter, which is... exactly what I'm doing. I'm not sure how you haven't picked up this point across 3 posts, it hasn't exactly been subtle.

But if you wish to sit there and say "Well it's fine the way it is!" then by all means continue to do so, that's your right as a consumer, just as it's mine to disagree with the practice.

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Exactly. You all might be okay with getting less than before for your subscription, but don't expect everyone to share that sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

(a bunch of good stuff)

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I'm not going to comb through the EULA, but I think we've both made our points here. I do want to clarify that I have no issue with people complaining about the cash shop, or being unhappy with it. It just bothers me that people try to make it into an ethical argument. All that does is escalate things and divide people. I think we'd all be better off if we were just honest about what we want, particularly with ourselves.