DRK tanking. A little bit of pain.

They could also have increased parry chance along with higher AP with lower health. That would help DRK, who is supposedly a parry oriented class, have better procs. Though admittedly buffs getting piled on without proper consideration to other classes might rub some the wrong way. They would have to be careful about it to make sure it stays fair (although a warriors parry on demand skill can hardly be considered fair when compared to Dark Dance's mere increased chance.)

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Minus Strike Would Be Useless. Fullstop.

If your DPS is dependent upon how much health you have remaining, you'll be completely at the mercy of healers.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND. Why the hell would we want the Job to become MORE beholden to another person's skill level and knowledge of OUR Job's mechanics than it already is with the skill that WE ALREADY DISLIKE BECAUSE OF THIS REASON - Living Dead??

Nonsense.

False. Souleater's drain effect is tied to Grit, not a combo bonus. Out of combo, you can even Dark Arts it for ~260 potency.

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False it grants 0 hp in grit if its an open attack out of combo. go ahead open with it, tell me if im wrong literally a half storms path locked in tank stance, im gonna have to side with those that want the hp bonus out of grit now, this isnt even fair at this point when were talking about tank balance

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

False it grants 0 hp in grit if its an open attack out of combo. go ahead open with it, tell me if im wrong

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This is correct, which is weird, because the tooltip suggests otherwise.

And so what? Dark Knight has a health-restore combo, Paladin doesn't. Paladin has an emergency heal, Dark Knight doesn't. Warrior has a better emergency heal, a health restore combo (storm's path is worse than soul eater) and a resource-to-health skill that none of the other tanks have, but they need it, because they don't have the permanent mitigation the other tank stances have.

If they introduce a DPS stance for Dark Knight later on, that could be somewhere to swap a few MP costs to HP costs if balanced right, but for now, I can't think of any skill I'd be happy sacrificing, I like all of them. Even Sole Survivor and Abyssal Drain.

im only hoping theyre looking at 4.0 drk and looking at us and going "drk is fine trust us" as for now...it works, just sort of wonky imo

Scaling a TANK's damage or ability to tank with how much health they have remaining is a bad idea. It ties you too tightly to another person knowing how your Job functions. Bad healers stand there and do jack shit until you take damage, then they just Cure 1 and continue standing there. Guess what - your Minus Strike passive will be worthless in situations like this.

The other fundamental issue with this is that this mechanic is completely worthless for the Off-Tank Dark Knight. You're in the position where you're expected to do maximum DPS and your strongest DPS gimmick is locked behind the fact that you're not tanking - and, again, relies on your healer to know about this mechanic and how it works while also knowing fight mechanics well enough to use their resources to heal you before big hits. It's silly.

Dark Knight isn't perfect, but any suggestion which makes us rely on healers more than any other tank is one that will permanently boot DRK from the meta.

(Also I just read the tooltip and assumed! That's really dumb.)

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Scaling a TANK's damage or ability to tank with how much health they have remaining is a bad idea.

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This, full-stop lol.

Having an ability like a reverse spirits within would be a fun thing to add, but tying an entire job's damage to how much %HP they have is asking for drama on epic proportions. I can already see the DF arguments with DRKs and healers erupting and depending on the personality of the player using the DRK, even arguments in statics.

Not just that, but unless the damage increase is massive to the point you're absolutely destroying the other two tanks dps wise and even some dps jobs, you'll successfully obsolete DRK from any raids where having less than 50% of their HP during any part where they're tanking can result in instant death, even with CD usage. and as JackFross said, you'll practically destroy their use as an OT.

If they went with a minus strike style passive, tie it to the DRK's MP, as that would create an even stronger dynamic and active playstyle where the DRK would have to balance MP usage on dark arts and other abilities, while trying to keep a minimal amount of MP at all times. Not just that, but it would be solely on the DRK to manage and not put stress on healers.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

If they went with a minus strike style passive, tie it to the DRK's MP, as that would create an even stronger dynamic and active playstyle where the DRK would have to balance MP usage on dark arts and other abilities, while trying to keep a minimal amount of MP at all times. Not just that, but it would be solely on the DRK to manage and not put stress on healers.

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It's almost as if... the way the Job is designed is, like... smart...? And... I dunno... intentionally complex and difficult? I agree with everything you said. It's really disconcerting to me that people have these pie-in-the-sky notions that it's a great idea and fun and enjoyable to lock your hands behind your back and require someone else to understand how the Job you play functions well enough to let you perform well.

I'm done flipping tables, at least. I'm just still frustrated that all of the discussion had since my post on the previous page is explored in said post that was completely ignored by everyone, apparently.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

I'm done flipping tables, at least. I'm just still frustrated that all of the discussion had since my post on the previous page is explored in said post that was completely ignored by everyone, apparently.

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Well, there's nothing to say about your post because basically I agree with it. I see messing with HP in any way that doesn't theoretically give it back to you in surplus to be A Terrible Idea (tm).

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Originally Posted by JackFross

It's almost as if... the way the Job is designed is, like... smart...? And... I dunno... intentionally complex and difficult? I agree with everything you said. It's really disconcerting to me that people have these pie-in-the-sky notions that it's a great idea and fun and enjoyable to lock your hands behind your back and require someone else to understand how the Job you play functions well enough to let you perform

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Yeah, that'll happen a lot. People will focus in on one aspect of what you said and ignore every other point.
I mean apart from one non-relevant point, everything you said checks out and I agree with, but it's the forums man. People who want to listen already agree.

Also dragoon isn't the locked spot in progression, ninja is. #factchecker

It occurs to me that DRK as it is now can also, to no small degree, be compared to another lesser known class from various fantasy genre called Swordmage. A class that often combined sword skills with arcane attacks. Rename DP to something like Arcane Swing and color it blue instead and how could anyone tell the difference between DRK and SDM? Why SDM would make more sense for several of the abilities due to the current sole reliance on mana. I say this because there is a disconnect between the lore of DRK vs the current edition. What can be done about this to better define DRK so that the gameplay matches the name? The reverse slider is a good suggestion, although admittedly not without flaws. Another possibility would be something like an adaptation of deliverance where instead of stacks of crit/parry it could be increased AP but lower defense. Can you think of other ways to better define DRK?